Hey guys...

Its occured to me that the MMO games of today seem to focus on "action oriented combat" and "nonstop killing" "no grind"

Is this possibly a step in the wrong direction? Im not saying that MMOs need to go as far back as EQ-paced combat, but perhaps the approach games are taking now is a little too fast. People like to get upset when all you hear in a dungeon is "gogogogogogogo", well perhaps its the game thats making it happen! You cant have basically instantly replenishable  resource (mana, energy, etc),  easy mob pulls, and the like and NOT just think you should be burning through the content. Wheres the downtime? Wheres the sitting around talking about the latest games in group chat, or newest addition to the game, or anything while you are waiting for mana or health?

The social aspect of MMOs is gone because no one has time for it anymore. When you can either be burning through an instance or dynamic quests with no downtime or anything, theres very little incentive to interact with the group. If a game could find a good balance in fun, creative, and active combat, while still trying to produce some social confrontation within the game, I think it would be successful. Theres a reason alot of the older games seemed better. Besides the nostalgia, the was definitely a more social focus in the games then in these newer games.

So my point is...perhaps slowing things back down, and making more room for player/player interaction is the direction a game should take.

Yes, but until it becomes more financially viable to make indie MMOs, I don't think we're going to see that change.

I've been playing since the MUD days.  I was in EQ for a bit but found Dark Age of Camelot far more medieval and warlike.  EQ1 had a great community on the rp servers.  DAoC did as well. Those games are a shadow of what they once were, however.   Asheron's Call was pretty neat and Shadowbane really outdid them all in regards to city building.

In regards to what has happened, I believe the reality is that the developer community, not the player community, shifted the genre from building:

-----------------------------How it used to be

• Lots of races
• Housing
• Possible complex political factions
• A focus on more realistic pvp (building siege machines and breaking down walls)
• Success in pvp mattered for your entire realm
• Skills build from combat, causing a character to become more power from real pvp experience
• Communities build out of necessity for success, i.e., you have open dungeons and the need to group even to level

--------------------------------  TODAY's mmorpg

• Few races, more cosmetic than purposeful or lore based
• No housing
• No true factions, rather, make a guild and fight the same races and classes that spawned in the starter zone
• Childish pvp (arguably!) with capture the flag pvp.  Other poor examples include just making an open zone set up for pvp with no rhyme or reason to it.  
• Pvp only matters for the guild that is doing it, it has zero affect on your community - which is good since these types of mmorpgs have almost zero community
• Skills build from gear sets
• Communities are unnecessary due to classes being built to solo.  Pvp reflects this as well and since it has no purpose, there's really no reason to even talk to anyone.  Just kill whatever is red and count your points toward your next piece of gear.

Forums are the downtime.  This is the wood between the worlds.

I think things are moving in a good direction overall, losing a lot of good stuff that i like, but at  least overall mmo's looking better atm.  at least the ones in development.

Originally posted by tollbooth

I think things are moving in a good direction overall, losing a lot of good stuff that i like, but at  least overall mmo's looking better atm.  at least the ones in development.

Funny how that's always the case...

Originally posted by Comaf

I've been playing since the MUD days.  I was in EQ for a bit but found Dark Age of Camelot far more medieval and warlike.  EQ1 had a great community on the rp servers.  DAoC did as well. Those games are a shadow of what they once were, however.   Asheron's Call was pretty neat and Shadowbane really outdid them all in regards to city building.

 

In regards to what has happened, I believe the reality is that the developer community, not the player community, shifted the genre from building:

-----------------------------How it used to be

• Lots of races
• Housing
• Possible complex political factions
• A focus on more realistic pvp (building siege machines and breaking down walls)
• Success in pvp mattered for your entire realm
• Skills build from combat, causing a character to become more power from real pvp experience
• Communities build out of necessity for success, i.e., you have open dungeons and the need to group even to level

--------------------------------  TODAY's mmorpg

• Few races, more cosmetic than purposeful or lore based
• No housing
• No true factions, rather, make a guild and fight the same races and classes that spawned in the starter zone
• Childish pvp (arguably!) with capture the flag pvp.  Other poor examples include just making an open zone set up for pvp with no rhyme or reason to it.  
• Pvp only matters for the guild that is doing it, it has zero affect on your community - which is good since these types of mmorpgs have almost zero community
• Skills build from gear sets
• Communities are unnecessary due to classes being built to solo.  Pvp reflects this as well and since it has no purpose, there's really no reason to even talk to anyone.  Just kill whatever is red and count your points toward your next piece of gear.

So yeah, I agree with the OP.  However, it wouldn't hurt to take a look at what makes folks like me still talk about the first mmorpgs with a tear in the eye.

 

In ten years do you honestly think anyone is going to log into a game and say, "Man," wiping a tear, "remember the good old days we had in Guild Wars 2, or how about SW:TOR?"  Well, there's a reason for that.  And from what I just typed above it should  be fairly obvious.

In some ways though, I think there isnt much the developers can do about this problem.  I think the dev shifted there views as a direct result from not only the MMO community, but people as a whole. No one likes actual confrontation anymore. No one talks on the phone, its all text and fb. Why meet up with friends when you have fb? why talk on the phone about the new game coming out, when you can just send emotionless anti social text messages?

Honestly, I dont blame the devs for what they have in mind. I can see where they would think the new direction is a good idea. But, I think all it will take is one good game to come and get it right. Sure, all the fancy gameplay and graphics you read about on a game draws you in, and it does play a role in keeping you into the game. But what can ultimately keep you in the game for the long haul? the community! I can promise you right now, I would not still be in WoW if not for my friends playing. Its the community that holds everything together.

Originally posted by maplestone

Forums are the downtime.  This is the wood between the worlds.

It's slightly more than that, but you're on the right track.

Players used to have to talk to each other. I'm not saying just for cooperation in a group, like saying which target to attack first or whether to fight or run away. You used to have to ask things like "Where is that dungeon?" or "Where can I get that weapon?" or "What mobs here are aggressive?" You would encounter people in groups who would have to be told about special ways to get around a dungeon zone, or about special tactics that needed to be used against certain mobs. Or even about features of their own class that they hadn't figured out!

But in time, MMO databases became popular, followed by user-maintained wikis. Anything you didn't know, you could look it up. Gradually, it became "you should look it up", as you were just annoying to your group if you didn't already have that information. Games changed to adapt, and started giving the player a lot more information as they played rather than expecting you to learn it from other players. As this happened, downtime became less important because there was no need for players to talk to each other about the game during a group.

I wouldn't say it's the "wrong direction", but it's something there's no going back from. The days of being special for being a guru are long gone. Everyone has access to all the information they'll ever need, all they have to do is tab out.

At least they started to head in one direction finally, until 6 months ago they have been in a 8 year old stand still.

The real problem is that MMOs needs to stop copying eachother and do the same thing all of them no matter if that thing is Wow/EQ cloning or action based combat.

I kind of disagree that it is heading to the wrong direction because it's getting more and more fast-paced. It basically boils down to preference. Not all people play MMORPGs to chat around. I, for example, play MMORPGs to complete stuff like quests, achievements, story, etc.

Slowing down the game to "enforce" social activity may be counter productive since not all people play that way. It's like making a system that will force people to talk to each other since they have to wait for HP or mana replenishment. The question is, can we not chat around even if the game is fast-paced? It's more of a choice. Do we not see people hanging around towns or talking in guild chat for several hours even if they're playing a fast-paced game?

Socializing is a matter of choice. You can talk to people regardless of the pace of the game. Slowing it down means your forcing everyone to socialize, even if some are not playing the game for that aspect.

Its hard to say where MMOs are going, as they seem to be going every which way all at once. Unfortunately, most of them still use the classic model as their base. Guild Wars 2, TSW, etc. all still have at their core: WoW. Sure its gussied up and altered slightly. However, I do think the OP is correct in his assesment that the social aspects of MMORPGs are dieing, which is quite sad. Many people look down on SWG's Battle fatigue system, but I thought it to be a brilliant system for that game. It pushed the player to do more than just kill rancors all day. It pushed the player to participate in the community, at least minimally. And I think it could be fixed and expanded upon to greatly increase the community building aspects of some MMOs.

Well I beg to differ. I know at least one MMORPG, from experience, that's offering up a really interesting form of gameplay for what seemed to be a niche audience, rather than what the OP is using to generalise the new MMORPGs that have come out or are in the works. And then there's also stuff like ArcheAge & World of Darkness that will only do well if the people who are supposedly clamouring for those kinds of sandboxes, would get off their damn high horses and actually get those games (once they arrive).

as the topic states, "Heading" in the wrong direction?

I think more of has headed in the wrong direction, yeeeeeeeaaaars ago

Originally posted by Disdena

I wouldn't say it's the "wrong direction", but it's something there's no going back from. The days of being special for being a guru are long gone. Everyone has access to all the information they'll ever need, all they have to do is tab out.

I agree that  the days where a human being is the nexus of data are as dead as the days of oral history before the written word.  If you want to recreate that "gathering in the inn" feel, you have to actively feed players tidbits of dynamic news that they can use but will not be obliged to share. .

Originally posted by adiktus

I kind of disagree that it is heading to the wrong direction because it's getting more and more fast-paced. It basically boils down to preference. Not all people play MMORPGs to chat around. I, for example, play MMORPGs to complete stuff like quests, achievements, story, etc.

Slowing down the game to "enforce" social activity may be counter productive since not all people play that way. It's like making a system that will force people to talk to each other since they have to wait for HP or mana replenishment. The question is, can we not chat around even if the game is fast-paced? It's more of a choice. Do we not see people hanging around towns or talking in guild chat for several hours even if they're playing a fast-paced game?

Socializing is a matter of choice. You can talk to people regardless of the pace of the game. Slowing it down means your forcing everyone to socialize, even if some are not playing the game for that aspect.

Thats great, and I respect your opinions and preferences,

But the fact of the matter is, its an MMO, massively multiplayer. The genre's origins were a very social game. And of course theres going to be those people that prefer solo play, but I think that if games are changing theyre focus to a more single player minded style of gameplay, they need to modify what genre they classify their game as.

It has been said in other posts in other threads, but i believe it's due to the masse appeal. i'm not from the older days of mmo, but i believe they where only played by a small group of people. Probably nerds mostly (like me :D), but now, everyone and their dog plays, these games, which makes social interaction alot more difficult. Players will stick to their RL friends and family and avoid contact with strangers. So, a great focus on gameplay and combat elements and general easier access is required to make these games sucefull. After all, money is still more important.

Lets face it, most people suck - one way or another. So you wouldn't want to socialize with anyone outside your guild/circle of friends anyway. I've encountered too many players who are:

• lost with regards how the game works
• lost with regards what is good and what is not
• tactically and strategically inept
• unwilling to take dircetions
• incapable of learning from their mistakes
• speak little to no english
• naive (common problem with RPers)
• rude
• asshat
• weird
• or just plain stupid

So if you're smart and friendly with the right attitude and willing to improve and take directions, I have no problems with you. Sadly, you are very rare breed, so I'm sorry if I prefer to play and communicate with my friends and guild only.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Lets face it, most people suck - one way or another. So you wouldn't want to socialize with anyone outside your guild/circle of friends anyway.

Thats just a lack of patience in the modern player. Sure, less hardcore gamers play MMOs now than in the EQ days, but still, everyones gotta start somewhere. I wouldn't doubt that surely someone was thinking along those lines after encountering you when you were a new player.

Originally posted by pit101

Originally posted by Quirhid

Lets face it, most people suck - one way or another. So you wouldn't want to socialize with anyone outside your guild/circle of friends anyway.

Thats just a lack of patience in the modern player. Sure, less hardcore gamers play MMOs now than in the EQ days, but still, everyones gotta start somewhere. I wouldn't doubt that surely someone was thinking along those lines after encountering you when you were a new player.

None hardcore players are not neccesarily worse players or more annoying than HCers. And many casuals today used to be HC EQ or UO players who got job and families.

A stranger is a friend you havn't met yet... Or a moron, but just thinking everyone suck will actually force you to miss many new friends.

There is no right or wrong direction. A trend is a trend.

So people want to kill, kill kill and not socialize .. there is nothing wrong with that.

Now you can say you do not like it. I get that. But why should people change the way they enjoy games just because you don't like it? There is absolutely no reason.

I was recently playing Diablo 3 and i found a pretty good group that are going through Inferno Act 2 reasonably well (which is not the norma since Inferno Act 2 is difficult .. at least before the 1.03 nerf). So we put each other on the friend list. We did not socialize, and i did not tell them my life story.

Why should i? This is the level of fun i like. If i find a good player, i *may* put him on the friend list. At the same time, i don't want a huge friend list. I am in it for the gaming, not the social. I have NO INTENTION of chatting non-stop with these guys. That is the way i like to play the game. I don't apologize for it and i don't see anything wrong.

Now Diablo 3 is not a MMO ... but it has enough MMO elements. What i see is that many like this style of gaming enough and that is why dev are responding. That is why there is a trend. The popularity of LFD/LFR pretty much shows that people value gameplay convenience over socialization. So the trend would continue. A few players not likely the bigger market trend is not going to change the big picture (just like text adventures are not coming back big no matter how much the small group of advocate want it to).