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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Trash mobs

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111 posts found
  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3307

6/17/12 6:26:16 AM#41


Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Requiamer

Originally posted by Master10K Just some devs grinding on some Trash.
Well honestly this video is nice, but the Charr is lv 80, the Mesmer is lv 14, and they fight lv16 mobs, so they kind of have it easy. You can see when the mesmer is left alone he have some hard time with those mobs :p   But if you like challenge you should be well served with GW2, definitly the best mmo around to give you nice challenge, they do have trash mobs for sure but overall it way way better.   Ps the nicest challenges for me were the skill points, some are really nicely made.
The fact that the Thief was level 80 still didn't stop him rom getting 2 shotted by those Ettins.

Sidekicking.


Remember that GW2 has automatic level demotion - if you are level 80 and wander back into the starting zone, it will demote your level back down to something appropriate (usually no higher than 1-2 levels above the average level of the mobs). So the L80 Charr had the same hp/resources/stats as probably a L16 or L18 character.

This happens on the fly - in the last BWE you could see your apparent level, and it would change without any visible fanfair, or without any jarring effects (you don't lose abilities, for instance, they just get scaled down). If your super-cool ability usually does about 10% to a mob at L30 fighting a L30 mob, when you get scaled down it will probably still do about 10% to whatever you happen to be fighting. It seems to try to keep things evenly keeled.

It's similar to sidekicking/mentoring, but it's not tied to your group, it's tied to the area/location you are in. At least what I've seen of it so far. And it isn't optional - you can't decide not to do it. The game does it automatically.

The main effect means you can't ROFLStomp trash, because you never severely out-level them. It also means you can pretty well group with anyone, at any place, and not have to worry about level restrictions (going down at least, it won't scale people upwards). It also keeps dynamic events relevant, as every person near the event (and the number of people nearby when the event triggers scales the difficulty of the event) will be within the level range to assist.

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

6/17/12 6:30:30 AM#42

To answer you about as well as anyone can: Yes and no.

 

Mob spanwns are static. Location A will always have x number of mobs. They will spawn on a certain timed pattern (Note: DEs can and will change these patterns). One bandit camp is shaped and populated differently from another. Thigns aren't as "clone stamp" as EQ or WoW where you'll see little clusters of mobs in set locations, all the same. There is some of that, but it's not repeated as naseum like in other games.

 

Keep in mind, combat itself is MUCH more challenging. I won't say that once you "get" a mob's pattern you can't learn to predict it; that's pretty much the only way to survive. But it rarely becomes trivial. Some thought is generally required. The mob spawns in this game are not 100% what you're looking for; they're not 100% not either. How much you enjoy it is entirely up to you. If you can get ahold of a beta key I recommend trying it out and seeing for yourself.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

 
OP  6/17/12 6:38:21 AM#43
Originally posted by Ridelynn

Mkay...

That being said, the trash mobs in GW2 are reasonable, from what I've seen of the early game at least. If you travel along the roads, you won't be heavily accosted and can move about relatively easily (just a few encounters - enough to prevent you from auto-running, but not so much to take a ton of time).

That's very nice. 

When you start exploring the side areas, you see some pockets of expected resistance - want to see what's on the other side of that valley full of ghosts? Expect to have to fight your way through. The rewards for exploration are well worth it in this game.

Well... That's a bit less nice. It's good and expected to see a challenge while exploring; but does it have to be the same? So, I need to pass through a valley full of ghost: it's perfectly okay for me to fight increasingly difficult battles. It's unacceptable for me to fight the same battle 20 times. Which one is likely to be here?

The trash mobs range from fodder to some that actually require some tact - depending heavily on your play style. And the fact that your class acts and behaves differently depending on what weapon they have equipped, that makes a huge difference in how different types of mobs have to be played. Rather than relying on heavy AIs, most mobs use various combinations of immunity and special abilities - key abilities from the player classes/weapons, with special abilities such as "Dodges attacks more frequently" or "Chance to reflect ranged damage" to spice it up a bit. Some of the combinations can be brutal, some are trivial, most sit someplace in between - enough of a challenge to keep you awake, but not so difficult to make it cumbersome.

Do you mean that the same monsters may have different immunities and special abilities, thus making fights with them less predictable and forcing to adapt on the run? Like, this Bear has some Paw Strike and Water Immunity, and this another but same-level, same-type Bear has Iron bite and Immunity to Stun? Or is it that same monsters have same immunities and special abilities?

If you like games that require a minimal amount of side tracking to push through to a single objective - GW2 probably won't be for you. The personal story is amazing, but it does require a good deal of leveling to get through it, and that leveling has to occur via some means other than progressing through the personal story. GW2 forces you to do "other" things - but it doesn't shoehorn you into any single method. You can progress via PvP, questing, dynamic events, dungeons, exploration, grinding - however you want to do it, but if you just focus on one facet of the game you'll probably be disappointed. Not saying that liking what you like is wrong, but if that's your game, then yeah, GW2 may not be for you.

I love exploration and challenge. What I don't like is when in order to explore you need to do "pull-a-ghost, kill-a-ghost, pull-a-ghost, kill-a-ghost" routine 20 times.

That being said, there is no sub, so your only out the box fee and you can play forever - so there isn't a whole lot of commitment in order to play around with it.

Absolutely, and that's why I'm certain to buy the box (that and PVP. I love PvP. Mobs there have diverse AIs). At least it will promote an alternative to subscription MMORPG model, with which I'm thoroughly through.

  meari

Novice Member

Joined: 4/14/12
Posts: 104

6/17/12 6:57:04 AM#44

I'm not sure what you are asking for OP, I also notice you dodged the question when asked to give example of games you consider to have no trash mobs.

Every game I've played, from FPS to RPG to even RTS, all of them contain what what can be called "trash mobs" under your definition.

Developers cannot custom craft every single encounter, which means they will inevitably repeat. Even if you randomize the AI you're only expanding the possilibities, and once you learn to recognize the AI pattern it just become Mob A-AI Type X and everything after that becomes "trash mob".

Even changing up the mob group composition doesn't help solve the problem, as you can only mix them in so many ways.

To fit your criteria there will be essentially no encounters left outside of boss fights.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1423

6/17/12 6:58:19 AM#45
Originally posted by Grahor

The main problem in mmorpgs for me is trash mobs. You know them: just a bunch of mobs that present no challenge and no interest, having no purpose and are there only for one reason: to make you spend more time moving from start of the quest to its boss/end, or from point A to point B.

 

Single player games have them, a recent example - Dragon Age 2 had them in nearly every battle. But in mmorpgs they truly are a pandemic. Since most mmorpgs need to artificially extend game time, they insert such mobs everywhere. My mind can take only so much extending before it bursts.

 

For me, for a game to have interest, every encounter must represent a challenge - either by a new mob type, a new mob combination, or a different tactical situation through terrain, mob scripts, etc. This means that pretty much every encounter must be hand-crafted, or a lot of different types of enemies with different scripts, behaviors and AIs have to be created. This, of course, is a problem, because there is only so much human-months is available for development.

 

This, by necessity, means that the games I like are short - because they contain no empty filler, no trash mobs, and without filler there is only so much content that can be developed. That's okay for me; if I wanted to fight the trash, I would become a janitor.

 

So, the question. I didn't play GW2 betas, I did watch some videos; I don't expect anything revolutionary from it, and I'm satisfied with what I see. I am, however, interested, how many trash mobs are in there. In all mmorpgs I've played, the main reason I've stopped was because I was tired of moping the trash. Would I be tired in GW2 sooner or later?

Lets say it quite simple. You have to focus more on pvp. Because seriously as you already said, in PvE you will always have trash mobs or even simplify it, enemies with no new challenge. And as you said already it isnt really possible, because of lack of advanced AI(maybe in 10 years) or the huge amount of work the developer have to put into it. So either it is just a short experience(and i cant remember one game with just challenging and always changing tactics within the pve).

And therefore a lot of players focus on pvp. Be it usual multiplayer games, or the multiplayer part of a single player game, or mmos. So look out for a game with a dedicated pvp, with either a lot of different maps because of the more different tactical situations through changing terrain, or huge maps. The WvW could be that part in GW2.

About the PvE in GW2.. you will see almost as much trash mobs as in any other game, maybe with the exception of the dungeons.. they could be a little bit longer interesting with the different exploration modes with no or at least very less trash mobs on the way.

But however, the best advice is you should really more focus on pvp, because that is more or less the only place where you get challenge, different and changing tactical situations and the long term fun out of a game.. any game.

That is the reason why i more or less play just games with a good multiplayer part to it.. pve just dont cut it anymore for a very long time. And GW2 will not be different in that part, as any game in the last years. We can just hope the developer will put more effort into AI, with even more important different layers of AI. Think about AI for every mob with different fighting styles and real environment awareness, with real counter tactics, but at the same time some kind of squad AI with more advanced tactics and strategy and on the highest layer some kind of AI to control the actions of a complete map or a complete race of mobs, to give orders to squads of mobs with some general plan. But the truth is, that AI in computer games have stagnated since years. The best example may be RTS, the AI didnt improved much, if at all from the first RTS to the current ones. They dont put a lot of effort into AI, or have the skills to do so... Scripted Events are so limited and by the same time so time consuming.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3307

6/17/12 6:58:58 AM#46


Originally posted by Grahor Do you mean that the same monsters may have different immunities and special abilities, thus making fights with them less predictable and forcing to adapt on the run? Like, this Bear has some Paw Strike and Water Immunity, and this another but same-level, same-type Bear has Iron bite and Immunity to Stun? Or is it that same monsters have same immunities and special abilities?

From what I've seen so far -

Similar mob types will have similar abilities, but not necessarily the same abilities. It's easier to demonstrate with humanoid-type mobs, because their weapon type will affect what abilities they have. While there are classes in GW2, the weapon selection more greatly influences how they behave. A Ranger with a bow will have different abilities than a Warrior with a bow, but all you can see is that someone ahead of you has a bow, so you know they will try to range you, but you don't know exactly how.

For instance -

All bears in a certain area may have Iron Bite and Paw Strike, but they also have 1-2 other abilities chosen at random from 4-5 species-appropriate abilities. Bears in a different area may have a different common ability, and different pool abilities, all together. So trash mobs of a common type are similar, but not necessarily identical.

The pool of abilities appears to be small (although I haven't got very high level, it could expand in higher levels), so at least early on, even thought there is variety to the encounters it doesn't take long before you've seen most of them - fortunately you fight your way through that ghost valley once, you kill about 20 ghosts (and their various combinations of abilities and in various numbers in a pack), and you never really have to do that again (because you've explored the area for map completion, gotten the skill point at the end, or what have you) - enough to where you can definitely pick up on the pattern, but not enough to make it nauseating; it's just a one-time ordeal. The real variability comes in on the dynamic events, where the difficulty scales dramatically.

  Valkaern

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/03
Posts: 513

6/17/12 7:08:28 AM#47

 

I actually found myself wishing monster populations were a bit more dense and numerous. They're too easily avoided if not pertinent to my activity, and a bit too sparse if I'm out to kill them.

  RizelStar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

6/17/12 7:36:43 AM#48

I'm trying to think of a single player game that does this lmao.

I think PVP is the only part of any game that does this. 

Though I'm sure there are games out there that do this like FPS games.

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  joker007mo

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/09
Posts: 720

6/17/12 7:44:22 AM#49

you know thing is you dont need to kill "trash" mobs anyway most "quests" killing trash mobs are only 1 thing usually there are 2-3 different things you can do instead

  seridan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/26/12
Posts: 1212

6/17/12 7:44:52 AM#50
Originally posted by RizelStar

I'm trying to think of a single player game that does this lmao.

I think PVP is the only part of any game that does this. 

Though I'm sure there are games out there that do this like FPS games.

There are few battles that haven't been repeated in the past, even in FPS games.

Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  Connmacart

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/12
Posts: 693

6/17/12 7:44:57 AM#51

Basically the OP wants:

First bear bites you, you kill it.

Second bear slashes you, you kill it.

Third bear pulls out a shotgun and shoots you, you die.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

 
OP  6/17/12 7:51:55 AM#52
Originally posted by meari

I'm not sure what you are asking for OP, I also notice you dodged the question when asked to give example of games you consider to have no trash mobs.

I usually play strategy games like Civilization and Panzer General, Paradox's strategies and Total War strategies. They tend to have different gameplay; in Total War strategies you can use "autoresolve feature" to skip battles with an equivalent of "trash mobs". RPGs have their share of trash mobs, but the amount varies: from DA2 where trash mobs were as abundant as trash mobs in mmorpgs to Shadow of the Colossus where you don't have any mobs but bosses at all. Fallout: New Vegas is somewhere in between; plenty of trash mobs, but you can skip nearly all of them through stealth, etc.

The most recent game I've played was Binary Domain; on the first glance, it's full of trash mobs (robots, limited number of models, same behavior between them), but the situations in which it put you were different every time; this time it was a wide open room with cover on one side; a series of tight corridors with robots pouring from all sides; time-limited run through throngs of mobs; snipers above; etc. All the encounters hand-crafted by developers, they always put something new there. Lots of boss fights. Lots of side-challenges like "not just kill a bunch of robots, but do it with headshots and melee". All in all, the game doesn't turn itself into a routine; of course, it's short. How can it be something else when all the fights are hand-crafted? And I see no point in ever repeating it. But overall, that's how would I prefer the games to be.

Developers cannot custom craft every single encounter, which means they will inevitably repeat. Even if you randomize the AI you're only expanding the possilibities, and once you learn to recognize the AI pattern it just become Mob A-AI Type X and everything after that becomes "trash mob".

And at that moment this type of mob have to disappear from the game forever. Yeah, sure, it'll make it shorter... But I don't see it as a downside.

Even changing up the mob group composition doesn't help solve the problem, as you can only mix them in so many ways.

But let's try to mix them at least in SOME ways! :)

To fit your criteria there will be essentially no encounters left outside of boss fights.

I'm not an absolutist; some amount of trash mobs is inevitable, especially considering that it's subjective at which point mobs turn from "new challenge" to "old trash mobs" for each player. But I would prefer that amount to be smaller than larger.

 

  Wolfynsong

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/12
Posts: 241

6/17/12 7:52:25 AM#53

I totally see where the OP is coming from.  Personally, I find it very annoying to have to stop and kill a bunch of trash mobs when just running through an area.

Even GW1 pretty well forced you to kill everything along the way, unless you specifically used a running build to cure conditions, prevent knockdowns/slows/etc.  Otherwise even the lowbie mobs could still pin you down and degen you to death.

 

However, GW2 doesn't really have this problem.  Why?  Because of the short mob range leashes.  Whether or not the mobs are a challenge to beat doesn't even matter.  If you don't want to fight them, just run past them - they don't really chase you.  The worst that can happen is that a ranged mob hits you 1-2 times.  You won't die, and out-of-combat health regeneration is very fast.

So, to all those people complaining about the mob aggro leash - shut up.  Seriously.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

 
OP  6/17/12 7:55:50 AM#54
Originally posted by Wolfynsong

However, GW2 doesn't really have this problem.  Why?  Because of the short mob range leashes.  Whether or not the mobs are a challenge to beat doesn't even matter.  If you don't want to fight them, just run past them - they don't really chase you.  The worst that can happen is that a ranged mob hits you 1-2 times.  You won't die, and out-of-combat health regeneration is very fast.

So, to all those people complaining about the mob aggro leash - shut up.  Seriously.

Yay! Now that's I like. If I can just run/evade mobs I don't feel like fighting, it'll be good enough.

  johaocarl

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 111

6/17/12 8:23:11 AM#55

Opener,

sincerelly, I think you need try the game for see it yourself. Try get a key for next BW or just pre-purchase the game. You are trying understand how GW2 works, but you you use a mind frame from who is trained to play WoW-clones. "Trash mobs" happens at WoW-clones (ever and forever), but GW2 is NOT a WoW-clone....

With relation to hearts, they can be quest, but not the traditional quests. A player can complete it and not kill any mob. "Kill 10 rats" is not mandatory. However, hearts are not the main meat. DE are most important than hearts, and hearts where put on map just for players don't get lost while looking for DE.

Hearts are things for do while players look for DE. And while a player complete a DE, that player can just complete 1-3 diferent hearts too, just from killing mobs from the DE. 

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

 
OP  6/17/12 8:47:07 AM#56

I don't actually like to "try" games before they are out, in beta stage. When I'm playing, I prefer to have full, ready experience, not limited by couple of hours in the weekend following by months of waiting.

 

As for "wow-mentality", I was very interested in the difference between DEs and normal quest system earlier, discussed the issue, read what developers posted and what videos were available on the issue and I think I understand DEs pretty well. They are an interesting, but not critical evolution of quests, an improvement over normal quests, but not as radical as some people tend to think. Also, this issue is not all that important to the question of trash mobs.

 

You see, it's not why you kill a mob and what rewards you get that makes it a "trash mob"; it's how you kill it and how many same mobs you have to kill in a same way. Certainly DEs which allow you to do other things than to kill mobs to complete them are helping... UNLESS you have to kill those same mobs to complete the DE. If you have to collect 10 nodes and those 10 nodes are guarded by 10 mobs you can't evade, it's not really different from killing 10 mobs, is it?

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16418

6/17/12 8:50:28 AM#57

I am not sure if I would say GW2 have trashmobs, because if it does they are a lot tougher than in most other games.

The ones you easily fight in large numbers by yourself doesn't exists at least.

  RizelStar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/11
Posts: 2823

We all breathe and we all die.

6/17/12 8:53:49 AM#58
Originally posted by seridan
Originally posted by RizelStar

I'm trying to think of a single player game that does this lmao.

I think PVP is the only part of any game that does this. 

Though I'm sure there are games out there that do this like FPS games.

There are few battles that haven't been repeated in the past, even in FPS games.

Wait we talking bout battles?

I thought he said a trash mob is after you kill someone, the next encounter with the same species or enemy type they must have different tactics, otherwise they are trash mobs.

I might be missing the point still. 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  stragen001

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 1736

Mr Flibble is VERY cross

6/17/12 9:01:17 AM#59

OP,

It sounds like you are more concerned with finishing quests quickly and levelling up to cap as quickly as possible, rather than playing the game.

This is not the right mindset for GW2 - its not about getting to level cap as quickly as possible, its about experiencing the story and the game. Levelling as quickly as possible to move onto the next area means you will miss out lots of the game content because you will miss many dynamic events that dont happen that often, or need certain conditions to trigger that werent there the first time you ran through a particular place on the map. 

For me, GW2 is more about exploring the world and experiencing the things that happen as you explore.

It sounds like what you are asking for is every mob in the game to have different combat tactics...... which is just impossible. If you want that, play PvP

Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom

  Abstracted

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/10/08
Posts: 7

6/17/12 9:14:50 AM#60

I'm still a little bit confused about your definition of "trash mob". You said they're for "artificially extending game time" and if that's what defines a trash mob, then no, there aren't any in GW2, from what I've seen. During my 2 beta weekends I never HAD to kill any mobs standing in my way / whatever to make progress. Of course, each mob doesn't provide a "new challenge", since developing that would take years for a game of this size.

However, if you want to, you can just kill one ettin monster, have it provide you a challenge, and then never kill one of those guys again. The game does not force "kill 10 ettins" type quests on you and as such, the feeling of grinding trash mobs is gone. The only times you'll be "forced" to fight large groups of similar monsters are dynamic events, but that doesn't mean the mobs will just stand there and wait until you kill them one by one - usually you're the one being assaulted during an event and that makes the kills a lot more fun. 

In short, I think that you could be surprised by GW2 in this aspect, OP. I'm not one to say "you will like it" or anything like that, but the PvE is different from the usual cookie cutter MMO. In one word, it's interesting.

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