Originally posted by zyklonian

you ppl need to get over this starwars thing and just get ready to roll a panda,  besides the next WoW xpac will probably be in space anyways.

Am I the only one who thinks its hilarious how the only thing anyone mentions about WoW is pandas?

I'm not saying you think it sucks, but seriously its like.

"lawlz wow sux lol haz fun wit ur pandaz" as if its kung fu panda online.

I don't hate WoW, and I don't play it either. But seriously, if "lawlz panda" is all you have to diss something with, grow up..

Originally posted by ktanner3

-Yeah, the future for MMOs will be great once developers stop investing so much money in them. Then you guys will be back playing by yourselves in those  low cost pieces of garbage that no one but yourselves think are great games.

So you think playing high cost pieces of garbage is more fun than playing low cost pieces of garbage? Interesting logic.

The way i see it there is no correlation, no correlation at all, between the production costs of a game and the enjoyment people can derive from it. You think if BW had thrown another 100-200 mil into marketing or VOs(maybe by using voices of wellknown actors) the game would have been any better? I call BS on that.

All the (paid)hype in magazines and commercials during primetime(in dozens of countries) did add ABSOLUTELY nothing to the quality of the game. Satisfied customers and regular honest reviews should be all thats needed to promote a decent game, start low and keep growing because people actually like your game, you know like EvE is doing.

They not just paid millions for those commercials, the also shot themselves into the foot because they lured people into the game that have no interest in the genre. That kind of logic works for single player games where a sale is a sale, but in MMOs you actually have costs associated with people, especially if you have to provide hundreds of servers initially for a population thats down the drain later on. Then you have to deal with the bad press of server mergers etc, where in reality your population just dropped to a realistic figure without all inflation caused by your hyperactive marketing department.

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Originally posted by Valentina
You're looking at non-peak times. There were like 8 full servers yesterday and 2 heavy's.

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" The Titantic is sinking and its almost entirely under water now"

you know,the whole titanic thing got old a week after the cool kids started that phrase

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Burntvet

 

 

None of those other games:

-Cost $200 mil+ to make and market, maybe as much as $300 mil including all the marketing to datE

-And it showed.

And so do the empty servers, and huge population declines, not 6 months out. It is a very pretty digital oil painting, fine. But it is not fun to play an oil painting. And again, it is about expectations.

-Lost at least 1 mil subs in the first 6 months

-Because they never reached a million to begin with. Most never even smelled 500k. That's like the musician that never had a hit bragging that his songs never dropped as far on the charts as the one hit wonder. 

Techincally correct, but even then, so what? On a percentage basis, TOR is doing as badly as many games, and worse. For the most expensive game ever made.

-Were hyped to the moon about being the biggest thing to hit the MMO genre, ever

-Hyperbole

EA/BW spent more on marketing TOR over the time period, than any company has spent on a title over the same period. That is not even really in doubt. And created huge expectations.

Incuding the 60+ articles at this site alone

-Yes I know, you guys are still peeved about those high scores that your precious favorites never got. 

And that has anything to do with the medicrity of TOR? This site and many others hyped TOR with 5+ or more articles every week. A product that they themseles were advertising on this very site.

-Had such high expectations, at all levels, attached to it.

 -Every MMO released has high expectations. You don't invest money in a project and not have expectations. 

Every MMO has expectations, obviously (duh). EAs own and those they sold to investors were for multiple millions of subs, for years. Otherwise no one would have commited 200+ mil for 5 years. EA was thinking WoW numbers, or they would not have invest that much time/money.

The sales/retention/financial expectaions have not come close to being met, and by the massive player losses, I'd say player expectations have not been met either.

There will not be another $200 mil MMO made for the next 5 years at least, maybe 10 years, maybe longer.

-Yeah, the future for MMOs will be great once developers stop investing so much money in them. Then you guys will be back playing by yourselves in those  low cost pieces of garbage that no one but yourselves think are great games. 

Perhaps you have me confused with someone else, but I have not been playing many MMOs these last few years, because they frankly have all sucked longterm.

And it is not even that TOR is a bad game, it is simply the most expensive, most hyped, hugely anticipated MEDIOCRE game of all time. They could have made an equally mediocre game for 25% of the price and EA/BW would not have tanked the reputation by doing so.

 

 

 

 

And that is why they/you fail.

Originally posted by Burntvet

Expectations and Marketing.

 

And that is why they/you fail.

 

 So basically for you it all comes down to marketing and perceived expectations on failure of a game. Fair enough. Personally, I never expected this game to be the size of WOW and neither did most here when polled. You had the occasional fanatic that made the claim, but by and large most people didn't expect the second coming of WOW.#What I expected was a nicely polished game with a better leveling experience than I ever had before. That is what was being marketed and that is what I got. Since I'm still playing the game six months out and enjoying myself, the game isn't a failure. When other people pay my sub fees, then I'll start caring about who considers TOR to be a failure because in the end it is all a matter of opinion, not fact.

 Looking at the site right now it seens The Secret World is being marketed and GW2 is being hyped big time by its fans . Will they be a failure in your eyes if they don't reach WOW numbers or have a drop off in subs post launch like every MMO since WOW has done?

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Originally posted by SpottyGekko
If SWTOR really has only 200-300K players left, then EA will shut it down very quickly. They shut down E&B because it wasn't "profitable enough", so they definitely won't run a loss-making game.

 

So as long as SWTOR is open for business, it means EA are making "enough" profit, regardless of what third-party sites may say about the population 

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EnB was shut down because it had less than 20k subscribers at the end. TOR will survive as long as it makes a profit, the limit for that currently lies at approximately 40-50k - Depending on how updates are managed.

Originally posted by ktanner3

Originally posted by Burntvet

Expectations and Marketing.

 

And that is why they/you fail.

 

 So basically for you it all comes down to marketing and perceived expectations on failure of a game. Fair enough. Personally, I never expected this game to be the size of WOW and neither did most here when polled. You had the occasional fanatic that made the claim, but by and large most people didn't expect the second coming of WOW.#What I expected was a nicely polished game with a better leveling experience than I ever had before. That is what was being marketed and that is what I got. Since I'm still playing the game six months out and enjoying myself, the game isn't a failure. When other people pay my sub fees, then I'll start caring about who considers TOR to be a failure because in the end it is all a matter of opinion, not fact.

 Looking at the site right now it seens The Secret World is being marketed and GW2 is being hyped big time by its fans . Will they be a failure in your eyes if they don't reach WOW numbers or have a drop off in subs post launch like every MMO since WOW has done?

It is not my expectations,.

EA/BW expected millions of subs and so did their investors. They came out and said it. WoW-like numbers are what they were looking for. And the EA execs came out and said what they needed for this game to be a "success" and profitable. Those have obviously not been reached, which is why EA was downplaying TOR on the conference call, and fired 100+ people off the TOR staff, just a couple weeks after saying they were keeping everyone.

More importantly, TOR has not met player expectations for the majority of players, i.e. those that already quit. Player expectations were certainly not helped by the gaming press, including this site, that hyped the hell out of it. About 2/3 or 3/4 of all the people that bought TOR have quit or not subbed (of the 2.4 mil boxed TOR allegedly sold) , during the first 6 months. Perhaps more. That does not scream success to me.

TOR is simply mediocre. EA can't fix it (or soon enough to make any difference), and that is the end of the story.

As to those other games, they will do how they do, but it will certainly be easier for them to reach the goals the companies set, because neither cost half of what TOR did.

And gameplay aside, I think GW2 will sell a lot of boxing because of their pricing model.

Originally posted by Burntvet

It is not my expectations,.

EA/BW expected millions of subs and so did their investors. They came out and said it. WoW-like numbers are what they were looking for. And the EA execs came out and said what they needed for this game to be a "success" and profitable. Those have obviously not been reached, which is why EA was downplaying TOR on the conference call, and fired 100+ people off the TOR staff, just a couple weeks after saying they were keeping everyone.

More importantly, TOR has not met player expectations for the majority of players, i.e. those that already quit. Player expectations were certainly not helped by the gaming press, including this site, that hyped the hell out of it. About 2/3 or 3/4 of all the people that bought TOR have quit or not subbed (of the 2.4 mil boxed TOR allegedly sold) , during the first 6 months. Perhaps more. That does not scream success to me.

TOR is simply mediocre. EA can't fix it (or soon enough to make any difference), and that is the end of the story.

 

As to those other games, they will do how they do, but it will certainly be easier for them to reach the goals the companies set, because neither cost half of what TOR did.

And gameplay aside, I think GW2 will sell a lot of boxing because of their pricing model.

 

Exactly, i dont know if EA could have been more clear when they said what IS a success and what IS NOT a success, and what is minimal acceptable with kind of expenses they had.

Since they already started cutting expenses and publicaly said SWTOR is somewhere down their on their radar its pretty clear what SWTOR IS and what SWTOR IS NOT.

However it doesnt stop people to come with their versions. Hey, Vanguard is still out there, its amazing success, AMIRITE?

Originally posted by Bardus

We need a Fox News gaming site. They would thrive on just how pissed off they could make the developers.

We're trying to avoid getting reviews from people that are paid off by a third party..not encourage it.

Originally posted by Burntvet

As to those other games, they will do how they do, but it will certainly be easier for them to reach the goals the companies set, because neither cost half of what TOR did.

I'm still trying to figure out why it cost so much in the first place...they used an inferior engine and already have experienced people. The only thing I can think of is bloated wages (i.e. overpaid voice actors, overbid advertising, etc).

Doesn't really make any sense..nor should they have used how much they spent on it as a positive..it's more embarassing than exciting.

I agree that the subs are probably down to about 300k or so now, but EA must be making money still or they would just shut it down. 

I dont care what anyone says, as soon as it stops making money, EA will shut it down. Thats just the way they are and it is also obvious good business sense. I suspect they will probably wait until they break even then just shut it down anyway knowing EA.

Originally posted by stragen001

I agree that the subs are probably down to about 300k or so now, but EA must be making money still or they would just shut it down. 

I dont care what anyone says, as soon as it stops making money, EA will shut it down. Thats just the way they are and it is also obvious good business sense. I suspect they will probably wait until they break even then just shut it down anyway knowing EA.

I do not see them shutting it down yet, for at least a year, even if it is not making money.

They spend so much on it already, and no doubt have a set term licence with LA. They have said they have already got years of content already written, so will no doubt have a few tricks up their sleeves yet, to attract people, before pulling the plug.

Originally posted by stragen001

 

I dont care what anyone says, as soon as it stops making money, EA will shut it down. Thats just the way they are and it is also obvious good business sense. I suspect they will probably wait until they break even then just shut it down anyway knowing EA.

They are on that path now.

The single biggest expense an MMO has (especially after launch) is labor, and EA has started cutting that already. (IP fee notwithstanding)

Once the two annouced expansions are done, it will likely go into maintainence mode until enough money is made.

And for that to even happen, I suspect that the license agreement with LA would have to change, because you know that wasn't cheap, and it was predicated on certain population numbers being maintained, which they are not.

So for TOR to stay open long term at all, I suspect the deal with LA needs to be renegotiated.

Otherwise, yeah... the mostly likely outcome is TOR shutting its doors.

Originally posted by KamiKazeTG

Originally posted by Burntvet

As to those other games, they will do how they do, but it will certainly be easier for them to reach the goals the companies set, because neither cost half of what TOR did.

I'm still trying to figure out why it cost so much in the first place...they used an inferior engine and already have experienced people. The only thing I can think of is bloated wages (i.e. overpaid voice actors, overbid advertising, etc).

Doesn't really make any sense..nor should they have used how much they spent on it as a positive..it's more embarassing than exciting.

It beats the hell outta me, they could have made 3-4 "standard cost" MMOs for the price of TOR and at this point, they'd have likely been better off doing that.

I too can't see where such a high cost came from... it was literally double what AoC cost and that was expensive to make.

Perhaps it will come out eventually...

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by KamiKazeTG

Originally posted by Burntvet

As to those other games, they will do how they do, but it will certainly be easier for them to reach the goals the companies set, because neither cost half of what TOR did.

I'm still trying to figure out why it cost so much in the first place...they used an inferior engine and already have experienced people. The only thing I can think of is bloated wages (i.e. overpaid voice actors, overbid advertising, etc).

Doesn't really make any sense..nor should they have used how much they spent on it as a positive..it's more embarassing than exciting.

It beats the hell outta me, they could have made 3-4 "standard cost" MMOs for the price of TOR and at this point, they'd have likely been better off doing that.

I too can't see where such a high cost came from... it was literally double what AoC cost and that was expensive to make.

Perhaps it will come out eventually...

No official cost figures has been revealed, every estimate so far has been third party speculations or hearsay.

But what could've been the cost, hmm, my guess is ofc things like the class quest, next to that, it may not look like it, but the total sum of all the available landmass is pretty big, easily multiple times what AoC had, and I think also as large or larger than WoW vanilla's or LotrO's total landmass. Also, that is handcrafted and not procedurally generated.

It might not look like it cost much, producing landmass and content on it, but Brad McQuaid once told that they had to stop from developing the third continent in Vanguard completely, because designing the other 2 continents and content on it had cost already so much time and manpower resources that they were already far past their initial deadline.

So yeah, the bigger the total available world or landmass is with the content on it to go with it, the more resources and time it'll take up. Especially for handcrafted worlds and not procedurally generated ones.

Of course, it's all speculation and just guessing.

Originally posted by cutthecrap

No official cost figures has been revealed, every estimate so far has been third party speculations or hearsay.

But what could've been the cost, hmm, my guess is ofc things like the class quest, next to that, it may not look like it, but the total sum of all the available landmass is pretty big, easily multiple times what AoC had, and I think also as large or larger than WoW vanilla's or LotrO's total landmass. Also, that is handcrafted and not procedurally generated.

It might not look like it cost much, producing landmass and content on it, but Brad McQuaid once told that they had to stop from developing the third continent in Vanguard completely, because designing the other 2 continents and content on it had cost already so much time and manpower resources that they were already far past their initial deadline.

So yeah, the bigger the total available world or landmass is with the content on it to go with it, the more resources and time it'll take up. Especially for handcrafted worlds and not procedurally generated ones.

Of course, it's all speculation and just guessing.

They had 12 full time writers and god knows how many programmers, modelers, sketch artists, etc which is ridiculous...The game really doesn't have that much content or landmass size in reality compared to other games on the market. The story isn't much more than a novel written by 1 person..maybe two or three novels worth of content..not 12. They've been working on it for what..four years? I believe that was the first time I heard about development. It was written in HeroEngine..which is so simple that even I can write up a MMO in a few weeks that runs just like SWTOR (no content though), so they didn't need someone to design an engine or learn it. It's fairly straight forward to use. I have used it..as I said..and I'm not a professional programmer.

Using Vanguard as an example is a bad idea..they had quite a few of the same problems as SWTOR..so it's not a surprise they agree on some things. Looking at cost estimates..even cutting that in half to be safe..is depressing when you actually play the game and feel how unpolished it is..how simple it is..and how much more work it needs.

About the only way to save SWTOR would be to drop HeroEngine and start over...good luck with that. The engine is dated, restrictive, unoptimized, and clunky. They won't get anything done with it.

For reference, I played 3 characters through their storylines before I gave up and canceled my account. I didn't find the content all that impressive. Repetitive character motions, lipsync issues, cliche story arcs, and nothing that impressive. It's still not as bad as The Secret World though. That game made me laugh and uninstall it after a day in beta. I at least got to release on SWTOR.

Some of you guys are on bath salts if you honestly believe this game is dying or going away with in the next year when games like WAR/Aion/Rift/AoC are still up and running and were hyped just as much as SWTOR by the lunatics on here... yet have less subs than SWTOR.. and I just can't stop loling at the OP suggesting there are only 200k subs left.

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by stragen001

 

I dont care what anyone says, as soon as it stops making money, EA will shut it down. Thats just the way they are and it is also obvious good business sense. I suspect they will probably wait until they break even then just shut it down anyway knowing EA.

They are on that path now.

The single biggest expense an MMO has (especially after launch) is labor, and EA has started cutting that already. (IP fee notwithstanding)

Once the two annouced expansions are done, it will likely go into maintainence mode until enough money is made.

And for that to even happen, I suspect that the license agreement with LA would have to change, because you know that wasn't cheap, and it was predicated on certain population numbers being maintained, which they are not.

So for TOR to stay open long term at all, I suspect the deal with LA needs to be renegotiated.

Otherwise, yeah... the mostly likely outcome is TOR shutting its doors.

 

They went from a pre launch crew of 800, and cut 200 jobs. That leaves 600.

I would like to see how many pre launch games have 600 employees, let alone launched games.

Put it in perspective.

Originally posted by KamiKazeTG

They had 12 full time writers and god knows how many programmers, modelers, sketch artists, etc which is ridiculous...The game really doesn't have that much content or landmass size in reality compared to other games on the market. The story isn't much more than a novel written by 1 person..maybe two or three novels worth of content..not 12. They've been working on it for what..four years? I believe that was the first time I heard about development. It was written in HeroEngine..which is so simple that even I can write up a MMO in a few weeks that runs just like SWTOR (no content though), so they didn't need someone to design an engine or learn it. It's fairly straight forward to use. I have used it..as I said..and I'm not a professional programmer.

Most of what you wrote is just nonsense, regarding the content, landmass, the amount of story written... why do I even bother? It's just your own wild guessing with no proof of any kind at all. I'd look up the dev quotes regarding story material and analysis posts of people who went so far to actually measure the planets, but it just isn't worth it to waste the time. So believe in your made up stories however much you like, they still are your own make belief tales