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Vesavius
 Old School
Joined: 3/08/04
Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this. |
6/16/12 3:40:44 AM#61
The continous focus on PvP as cheap filler content has changed the culture in these games over the years into something pretty vile. The game model is one that encourages friction, antagonism, and hostility, so it's no suprise that this has infected the gaming culture. Add this solo non dependent play and the modern MMO culture should not come as a shock to anyone. Ofc, hitting the mainstream and becoming the fad of the week, where people that didn't even like MMOs were playing them because it was the hip thing to do for a little bit, didn't help either. |
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Moaky07
 Advanced Member
Joined: 2/24/07
MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry. |
6/16/12 3:42:57 AM#62
Originally posted by NaughtyP Like I said, it doesnt stop at the games themselves....the stereotypes thrown go right along with it. It is usually a daily thing. I have been posting here 5 yrs, and it actually used to be worse around here for themepark/PVE gamers.
As far as some "mystery shopper", when you are around long enough on these forums, it becomes painfully obvious who is calling folks ADD/spoiled/PB Cruncher, blaming others cause their type of games wont be made, or consistently spamming certain game forums. So fault me if you want for reminding these folks where they sit on the dev ladder, but dont discount the issue at hand.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget. |
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Zillen
 Novice Member
Joined: 9/15/10
I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally. |
6/16/12 4:12:36 AM#63
Personally, I disagree with your theory. Just because you consider yourself to be a more patient, social player, it does not qualify you to analyse a single themepark game and create an entire hypothesis based on your one negative experience. Such an approach is entirely contradictory to the definition of patience, and if I'm totally honest your article title strikes me as quite ageist. I understand that you are a sandbox fan - I think you subtly implied that somewhere in this article - but if anything this is guaranteed to give you a negative outlook on any "themepark" game you dip your pinky toe in to. You need to have a broader outlook if you are going to try and criticise an aspect of gaming - let alone its ENTIRE AUDIENCE. Let me be frank: there's a single reason sandbox MMOs are not produced widely anymore. That same reason links with the absence of "real MMOers", and in turn sums up the entire reason that your theory is completely un-realistic. There is no time for a niche game in the modern world. It's argued often, and sometimes very shoddily, but the fact is that that there is no time or money in sandbox games today. Hear me out before you smite me down, okay? But here's MY view on the situation: 1. Sandbox games require an amount of time, money and effort that companies simply cannot afford in the 21st century. In order to create your average modern MMO, as was highlighted in a dev perspective on this very site, you need state-of-the-art technology, skilled developers and millions of dollars. Those are the basic givens that are needed to pump out a title. And it instantly excludes most of the indie studios on this planet. Sure, Kickstarter and similar programs can provide quick, easy financial support. But I don't want to get into the negatives of Kickstarter now - as it is I could go on for a millenium on the hidden complexity, the broken promises, the games you DON'T see failing to make the cut and dying off. But generally, modern MMOs are produced solely in the AAA, big budget bellies of billionaire gaming corporations. All companies run on two things - money and time. Two currencies which, regardless of how efficiently they are spent, have the permanent effect of slowly disappearing when operating multi-million $ investments. Time is the big one here: do you have any idea how long it takes to create a structured, linear, themepark MMO these days, let alone one which is explicitly designed to be as rife with free-choice as possible? A heck of a long time. Half a decade at the very least. Time for the engine they started with to become outmoded. Time for the money to run out. Time for them to realise their core concepts suck. Time for their other projects to reach critical mass, forcing them to rush or start pulling the plugs on some of their games. That's when priorities start coming up, that's when efficiency becomes key. And sandbox games ARE NOT EFFICIENT. They are virtually impossible to create in a climate where gamers want their quick fix, because they too have no time to spare. The cost is not worth it for either party. Let me ask you: when, these days, if you are indeed above legal age, do you ever have time for games? Work, education, travel, cooking, cleaning, EVERYTHING: it is impossible to find the hours and hours of dedicated gameplay that would need to be invested in a sandbox worth its salt. Gaming audiences have not grown turned into younger, impatient sociopaths as you would suggest. The average age of a gamer is over 40, for god's sake. At least in western countries. Your take on the disappearance of "true, social, nice, kind and amazingly perfectly brilliant" online gamers, is that themepark MMOs have corrupted us and turned us into bitchy little punks who don't know what real gaming is. I disagree. The gamers have not changed. The world has, brother. Time is running out. The money runs out too fast. The EXPECTATIONS that the consensus has generated has led to the running of a good quality MMO becoming outrageously expensive. The creation of good MMOs themselves has become a niche art. Don't blame younger, more "impatient" gamers because we weren't around when the hours would drag away without any notable achievement. Blame the workplace. Blame the social expectation to have children. Blame anything, so long as it doesn't point the finger at the people who are just trying to squeeze in their favourite hobby amidst a life that can be literally crumbling around them every day. Please.
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase. There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world. |
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6/16/12 4:17:27 AM#64
so now we are old... |
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Zillen
Novice Member
Joined: 9/15/10
I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally. |
6/16/12 4:23:13 AM#65
?
There is no massive conspiracy waiting in the MMO playerbase. There are no "sleeper-agent fans" waiting to convert once the X or Y is unleashed on the world. |
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6/16/12 4:25:15 AM#66
Originally posted by Zillen well its the same routine , old ppl talking about how good the past was and how awful teenagers are. :) |
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6/16/12 4:35:02 AM#67
Alders quote, "Are you kidding? We were still assholes, it's just that game mechanics forced us to cooperate. I saw the transformation as soon as the ability to acquire gear became easier."
This is actually a good point, you do need a game to force you to cooperate or the community becomes a very poor one. Look at real life, what's stopping people from walking into a store and just taking what they want? Or attacking someone just for the fun of it? Consequences. We have a lot of social guidelines and protections in place, police and law enforcement being the main. In a game like EverQuest people needed each other to progress, people who were idiots were shunned and given a bad name. The community policed itself. The more a game moves away from codependence, the less social it becomes and the more unruly the players can be. To create a good community there need to be rules and consequences, without them people revert to baser instincts. |
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6/16/12 4:37:10 AM#68
In old EQ days you had to be social, corpse runs etc often meant you had to ask for help! Grouping then was important! Nowadays solo is king, or rather running with mercs! yipeeee No penalties means you can be a total jerk! Bot Bot Bots!
Genre is dead, FTP crap can go do one. Do not buy crap! it only encourages more crap! |
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6/16/12 5:51:04 AM#69
One thing i will say, path of exile, search for it :) |
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6/16/12 10:29:51 AM#70
Originally posted by Isasis
It's much much simpler than that. Back then mmorpg were things for few hardcore nerds that had the time and the patience to get invested in the game. Right now 99% of the mmorpg population is made from your everyday gamer... from housewife to the 12 years old kid.
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6/16/12 1:49:27 PM#71
Originally posted by Isasis I know, right!? Themeparks are obviously much cheaper than Sandboxes, and very easy to make. I remember this Themepark game that came out late last year, it was barely twice as expensive as any game ever made (not counting scrapping and restarting). Plus, it only took them like 6 years to make. And get this, their plan is to hang out at a small enough sub rate that it will take about 5 or 6 years to become profitable. Talk about a quick buck!! Might as well be farmville!! Plus everyone knows that making content takes WAAAAY less time than not making it does.  |
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6/16/12 1:55:36 PM#72
Originally posted by Loke666
I agree, it's totally the games fault. They cater to solo and selfish play so much that people dont even know how to work together anymore. |
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6/16/12 2:08:12 PM#73
Im also playing for more then decate mmo's and ive met my share of douchebags back then also same behavior in AC as they do now only maybe alot less then in '99. But i realy don't care anymore i still if i can help people i still have my patience and i won't change and even sometimes i meet people same attitude or social skills so its not all lost hehe. GW2 at least alot of douchbagging is not posible anymore so im looking forward to silencio game experience in that game but still players around me helping or revive me with not one word:) |
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6/16/12 3:11:18 PM#74
Over the course of the last fifteen years, my observation that any given attempt to segregate gamers by age and establish generalizations about their expected behaviour... Is, as predictable, complete rubbish. Uphill, both ways, through the snow. Should be ashamed that you entertained the thought for even a moment. -Nearly every single bad trend in MMO development was started by the developers.--Wordiz |
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6/16/12 3:21:41 PM#75
Originally posted by bakabröd Yup. Pretty much. Just do what you do with old people, ignore them and their ramblings. Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Author unknown, attributed to Mark Twain |
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6/16/12 3:30:18 PM#76
Originally posted by Quirhid Exactly. That's what I do with ramblings like that.
I'm 36 years old. I was one of those "old school players". I've seen the whole thing. The OP is demented. :) |
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6/16/12 3:41:01 PM#77
MMOs have broadened the demographic they appeal to. It has nothing to do with generation. You are just exposed to more people and therefore get a more varied mix of responses. |
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6/16/12 3:46:58 PM#78
Originally posted by Terronte To make shorter, the more potential for immaturity, the more immaturity. That's undeniable. It remains that the design of nowadays's "theme park" item grinders promotes "asshat behavior", unlike games like UO or AC1. When you are forced to play against your own team, don't expect most to behave nicely. |
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6/16/12 3:50:51 PM#79
The genre has gotten out of the underground and into the mainstream. |
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6/16/12 3:50:57 PM#80
Originally posted by otacu Thats as false as the OPs post. The guild I am in was formed in Meridian 59 and went right to UO and we had women and kids in it, just because there are "more" now, it doesnt mean percentage wise there are more because the genre has a TON more people in it. The only thing that HAS changed is that some of the people from the good old days turned into whiney crybaby old people blamming everything on kids these days... |
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