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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » Main reason why SWTOR flopped?

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396 posts found
  Ice-Queen

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2435

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

6/15/12 10:08:15 AM#341
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by achesoma

Instead of making a game for 2012 they made a game for 2007.  It's simply behind the times.  More of the same Skinner Box gear-grinder model.  The game lacks longevity.  After a few class stories completed not much else to do.  The combat is boring with way too many skills to manage and a poor energy bar system that has to be micromanaged.  Its only saving grace is the VO and story which was totally unnecessary for all the side quests, not to mention, a waste of time, money and resources.  Game certainly not worth the monthly sub.  Of course, all this has been stated time and time again. 

They do need more end content, and by the bunches.

 

That said, there are those of us having fun, and the numbers are still pretty good sized. Game isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I think the merge is going to be a good thing, and only wish they had limited servers in the first place.

The game is not pretty good sized. You don't do merges if you have over 1 million players playing. They've flat out lied about the numbers.

Mark Jacobs once said about Warhammer before it's release (and it came back to haunt him but thats another story), back in August 2008

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/ea-mythic-activision-world-of-warcraft-estimate-is-overblown/
"The corollary to that is if you've seen a game consolidate servers, you know it's in deep, deep trouble -- that's not a healthy sign for an MMO," he said,

“Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”

 

This still holds true today with any mmo that comes out. Bioware can spin it anyway they want, but the simple truth is they're not doing good.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Trol1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 184

6/15/12 2:11:52 PM#342
Originally posted by achesoma

Instead of making a game for 2012 they made a game for 2007.  It's simply behind the times.  More of the same Skinner Box gear-grinder model.  The game lacks longevity.  After a few class stories completed not much else to do.  The combat is boring with way too many skills to manage and a poor energy bar system that has to be micromanaged.  Its only saving grace is the VO and story which was totally unnecessary for all the side quests, not to mention, a waste of time, money and resources.  Game certainly not worth the monthly sub.  Of course, all this has been stated time and time again. 

Right... you know what, I'll make a suggestion here and now: I think pretty much most (I won't say all!) ppl here on MMORPG.com think that DAoC was/is a great game.

The biggest issue for most is the outdated grpahics.

We start collecting money thru Kickstarter to give DAoC a complete overhaul as far as the graphic engine goes.

Yes, I'll be honest I have no clue how much that would cost. But hey, we can just play the game.

Now, I'll leave the choice up to the ppl whether they want - content-wise - vanilla DAoC, expanded DAoC (sans ToA) or even DAoC (new user journey).

And then let's see how you like them old pre-WoW apples!

A game isn't bad because it sticks to a more classic setup, it may feel so for those gamers who always crave for something new, for their next fix of "nerverdonethisbeforeness".

And in case of SWTOR it IS clearly a case of lacking "neverdonethisbeforeness" combined with ADD:

We are now at the 6 months mark.

How many of the people who habe been playing have actually done all 8 stories without spacebarring thru any part of the story?

I bet very few.

And why should they? Well, because BW made teo mistakes, they didn't include enough class unique quests into the game. While at the same time they did not include big warning stickers that doing all quests with your first character may lead to less unique gaming options later in game.

Of course, for most gamers it's a foreign concept that a game may be build upon the idea of creating multiple additional  characters once you were done with your first character.

The come, they play, they hit the "end" of thta character and that's the end of the game for them.

Of course, for them SWTOR doesn't hold anything past lvl50.

But here is where the cookie take a dive into the milk: that's the risk with buying a game!

Nobody here can tell me that they haven't bought some game at some point in time that turned out to be, well, not their thing for whatever reason.

It happens.

Other people may like it and are perfectly fine having paid those $60.

That's how we are, not all of us are machines running on the same chip card.

And yes, some of us are perfectly fine having 40 different skills available while others in their "consoleness" have issues with more than 10 buttons. That's just how we are.

And frankly, I'd rather have a choice, a wide choice in what skills I may want to have prepared over just being stuck with a preselected set of 5 skills and that's my choice.

There are games where you actually have conditional skills that require a certain skill to be executed successfully first. Imagine that!

And now imagine that your whole daventurer's life is determined by just one base attack and 4 conditional skills that foloow the successful use of either the base attack or one of the follow-up skills. *eeek*

Not really much fun, right?

So, as I said: you may not like it, others do, deal with it ;-)

 

  tuppe99

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/16/05
Posts: 250

6/15/12 2:17:10 PM#343

Just 5 words are needed to explain why it flopped:

 

"It is not a MMO"

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1564

6/15/12 2:31:35 PM#344
Originally posted by Tayah
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by achesoma

Instead of making a game for 2012 they made a game for 2007.  It's simply behind the times.  More of the same Skinner Box gear-grinder model.  The game lacks longevity.  After a few class stories completed not much else to do.  The combat is boring with way too many skills to manage and a poor energy bar system that has to be micromanaged.  Its only saving grace is the VO and story which was totally unnecessary for all the side quests, not to mention, a waste of time, money and resources.  Game certainly not worth the monthly sub.  Of course, all this has been stated time and time again. 

They do need more end content, and by the bunches.

 

That said, there are those of us having fun, and the numbers are still pretty good sized. Game isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I think the merge is going to be a good thing, and only wish they had limited servers in the first place.

The game is not pretty good sized. You don't do merges if you have over 1 million players playing. They've flat out lied about the numbers.

Mark Jacobs once said about Warhammer before it's release (and it came back to haunt him but thats another story), back in August 2008

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/ea-mythic-activision-world-of-warcraft-estimate-is-overblown/
"The corollary to that is if you've seen a game consolidate servers, you know it's in deep, deep trouble -- that's not a healthy sign for an MMO," he said,

“Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”

 

This still holds true today with any mmo that comes out. Bioware can spin it anyway they want, but the simple truth is they're not doing good.

As much of a talking head Mark Jacobs truly is, I do feel there is merit to some of his points, and this is one of them. Merging servers is typically a bad sign that a game is in trouble, for multiple reasons. However, like you said, BIoware/EA can spin it any which way they want, but having to do merges in a game that hasn't been out for a year is nothing but a bad, bad sign.

Looking back, it's fairly obvious that Bioware/EA thought that they would have a successful game based on the IP alone. Which in terms of box sales, you could call the game successful (for a single player game), but in terms of sub retention the game is a miserable flop. Not only did they fail to hold onto the brunt of their subs, they are also loosing out on future sales as well.

If the game had been B2P with no sub fee, but had a C-store with optional DLC, the fans of the genre might be a bit more forgiving. Hell, more people might even purchase knowing full well that they would play maybe 100 hours (not like that's a terrible value of entertainment). They might even go back and play if they released some DLC mission packs or something of that nature.

  Moaky07

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/24/07
Posts: 2199

MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry.

6/15/12 2:42:05 PM#345
Originally posted by Tayah
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by achesoma

Instead of making a game for 2012 they made a game for 2007.  It's simply behind the times.  More of the same Skinner Box gear-grinder model.  The game lacks longevity.  After a few class stories completed not much else to do.  The combat is boring with way too many skills to manage and a poor energy bar system that has to be micromanaged.  Its only saving grace is the VO and story which was totally unnecessary for all the side quests, not to mention, a waste of time, money and resources.  Game certainly not worth the monthly sub.  Of course, all this has been stated time and time again. 

They do need more end content, and by the bunches.

 

That said, there are those of us having fun, and the numbers are still pretty good sized. Game isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I think the merge is going to be a good thing, and only wish they had limited servers in the first place.

The game is not pretty good sized. You don't do merges if you have over 1 million players playing. They've flat out lied about the numbers.

Mark Jacobs once said about Warhammer before it's release (and it came back to haunt him but thats another story), back in August 2008

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/ea-mythic-activision-world-of-warcraft-estimate-is-overblown/
"The corollary to that is if you've seen a game consolidate servers, you know it's in deep, deep trouble -- that's not a healthy sign for an MMO," he said,

“Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”

 

This still holds true today with any mmo that comes out. Bioware can spin it anyway they want, but the simple truth is they're not doing good.

You do if you spread your customer base too far out.

 

Folks seem to be forgetting that other than prime time, most servers stayed "light" status the entire day. You take 400k subs off 200 servers, and it goes from floating to "WTF were we thinking" status.

 

The servers should of been tuned to hold the amount they are doing presently.  The fact BW is consolidating the players still around is a good thing, and yes there are still a lot of us. There would of been more if it had been taken care of prior to launch.

 

No MMO is going to have 100% retention, and that would of been needed to keep all the servers viable. At 2M sales, they pretty much tapped everyone that was going to purchase short term. Wow has maybe 3 or 4M NA/EU subs, and it took them yrs to get there.

 

TOR would of needed to get there in a 3 month span, and it wasnt happening.

Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  Zekiah

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/06/07
Posts: 2538

Hype (noun)
1. to trick; gull.
2. exaggerated publicity; hoopla.
3. swindle, deception, or trick.

6/15/12 2:46:42 PM#346

This is what happens when you design a game around the 'quick box sales' concept.

"Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever." - Noam Chomsky

  Gylfi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/06/06
Posts: 681

6/15/12 5:21:06 PM#347

as many already pointed out, essentially you can't offer a single player rpg and expect it to do well as a MMO.

I can't give you an apple to be a good banana

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

6/15/12 5:30:22 PM#348

They didn't have a clue what a MMO is and I afraid many games are failing for the same reason. They are making these games solo focused to the point you don't need each other.

  Trol1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 184

6/16/12 10:08:41 AM#349
Originally posted by Moaky07

You do if you spread your customer base too far out.

 

Folks seem to be forgetting that other than prime time, most servers stayed "light" status the entire day. You take 400k subs off 200 servers, and it goes from floating to "WTF were we thinking" status.

 

The servers should of been tuned to hold the amount they are doing presently.  The fact BW is consolidating the players still around is a good thing, and yes there are still a lot of us. There would of been more if it had been taken care of prior to launch.

 

No MMO is going to have 100% retention, and that would of been needed to keep all the servers viable. At 2M sales, they pretty much tapped everyone that was going to purchase short term. Wow has maybe 3 or 4M NA/EU subs, and it took them yrs to get there.

 

TOR would of needed to get there in a 3 month span, and it wasnt happening.

"Folks seem to be forgetting that other than prime time, most servers stayed "light" status the entire day. "

Which is the norm these days.

Because Blizzard managed to tap into the casual gamer segment of the market.

Who obviously have to play around the normal working hours for most of the working population, which in turn means that yes, only during peak hours we'll see heavier traffic on the server...

if MMORPGs were still the niche product they used to be early 2000-ish, heck, yeah, the picture used to be different due to both different people playing and those people having a different attitude to the game (Evercrack anyone?)

Anyhow, "servers  ... tuned to hold the amount they are presently" is probably a concept set for disaster.

You need to understand the scale of players BW was looking at: with 2 Mio boxes sold that meant potentially up to 2 Mio players at launch or there arounds.

Don't forget it was just before Xmas so you can probably add a fair chunk of potential late-sales (I bought my box on Dec 24th).

Now, imagine you have 2 Mio players all trying to get in... and due to the servers being limited to correspond with a potential devellopment of subscription numbers dropping and you leave them sitting there waiting in queue for 3-4 hours until they are maybe in?

Congrats, you just had a horrible launch!

And SWTOR is a launch property, it's not a sleeper that will expand over time.

Why?

Because the target audience BW was (sort of) aiming for, they won't wake up after 6 months saying "oh, look, they released this SW MMO 6 months ago, maybe we should look into it?"

You are a gamer and a fan of the SW IP, a SW game is released, you buy it. THEN and THERE!

Unless you have doubts about the quality of the game and would prefer to await first reviews, streams, videos, etc.

By which time you may already have lost out on any competitive edge you may have had in the game.

BW's only chance to keep numbers adding on, would have been to run a cascade system of world releases, much like the separate APAC release. Which did apparent result in approx. 100+K units sold.

Which in turn would have just brought up the fire of IP locks again and large markets being left out, etc.

Anyhow, seriously, what makes the whole thing for me so hard to understand is what the actual problem is supposed to be: yeah, okay, so servers feel/are empty... woohoo...

why? Because BW did something wrong? BW just offered a lot of server, like any good service provider would.

Go to a shop that offered a top end PC for £1 in their flyer and  then be told that they only had 2 and both are already sold... congrats, you'd be pissed as hell about this "offer" (more like scam) because you'd expect them to have sufficient stock.

BW did not pick the servers for the players, they picked them themselves.

And most of the people now whining were quite comfortable there, even despite falling numbers...

yet, suddenly, all of these empty servers are BW's fault, and BW needs to fix things ASAP...

I don't know but to me it seems like the way to solve this "problem" is to actually only sell MMOs (and definitely MMORPGs) to people who were successfully confirmed as MMO capable.

"You want to buy this MMO? Can I see your MMO capability card? Oh, I'm sorry, this game requires a MMOC of 2 or higher, you are only 1, I can't sell it to you." Wouldn't that be fun? ;-)

It would probably help getting people to organize themselves both went first selecting a server and later when maybe reconsidering and looking for a different server.

(Side note: you wanna bet how many players now are transfering to The Fatman but will by the end of the months be crying that nobody is reacting to their "LFG" spamming?) 

  CrunkJuice2

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/12
Posts: 584

6/16/12 10:19:13 AM#350
Originally posted by Tayah
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by achesoma

Instead of making a game for 2012 they made a game for 2007.  It's simply behind the times.  More of the same Skinner Box gear-grinder model.  The game lacks longevity.  After a few class stories completed not much else to do.  The combat is boring with way too many skills to manage and a poor energy bar system that has to be micromanaged.  Its only saving grace is the VO and story which was totally unnecessary for all the side quests, not to mention, a waste of time, money and resources.  Game certainly not worth the monthly sub.  Of course, all this has been stated time and time again. 

They do need more end content, and by the bunches.

 

That said, there are those of us having fun, and the numbers are still pretty good sized. Game isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I think the merge is going to be a good thing, and only wish they had limited servers in the first place.

The game is not pretty good sized. You don't do merges if you have over 1 million players playing. They've flat out lied about the numbers.

Mark Jacobs once said about Warhammer before it's release (and it came back to haunt him but thats another story), back in August 2008

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/ea-mythic-activision-world-of-warcraft-estimate-is-overblown/
"The corollary to that is if you've seen a game consolidate servers, you know it's in deep, deep trouble -- that's not a healthy sign for an MMO," he said,

“Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”

 

This still holds true today with any mmo that comes out. Bioware can spin it anyway they want, but the simple truth is they're not doing good.

i guess not very many people relize that swtor shipped with to many servers anyway.im not exactly calling swtor dead just because they merged alot of them recently.there just late to whole merging servers thing that should of been done 6 months ago

 

  nyxium

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/15/09
Posts: 1199

Tumbling down the rabbit hole?

6/16/12 10:43:12 AM#351

Retrospectively:

 

Released too early, probably under pressure from EA management, this happened with Warhammer.

Patches weren't patches, but more bugs in an app. i.e. Ilum

Single player space combat. MMO needs MMO space combat and nothing but this. Consumers were not going to pay a sub for single player space combat when they signed up for a MMO.

Expensive game box's and preorders.

Many servers meant costs weren't been recovered only incremently accrued.

Subs might put people off if the game got trolled, or honestly constructively criticized dependent on view point.

Hype, too too too much hype. Hype puts them off after time.

SWG shutdown already cast a gloomy atmosphere before launch.

Tried to be WoW in space.

No night.

 

Mainly this.

  Trol1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 184

6/16/12 10:58:05 AM#352
Originally posted by Kaneth

As much of a talking head Mark Jacobs truly is, I do feel there is merit to some of his points, and this is one of them. Merging servers is typically a bad sign that a game is in trouble, for multiple reasons. However, like you said, BIoware/EA can spin it any which way they want, but having to do merges in a game that hasn't been out for a year is nothing but a bad, bad sign.

Looking back, it's fairly obvious that Bioware/EA thought that they would have a successful game based on the IP alone. Which in terms of box sales, you could call the game successful (for a single player game), but in terms of sub retention the game is a miserable flop. Not only did they fail to hold onto the brunt of their subs, they are also loosing out on future sales as well.

If the game had been B2P with no sub fee, but had a C-store with optional DLC, the fans of the genre might be a bit more forgiving. Hell, more people might even purchase knowing full well that they would play maybe 100 hours (not like that's a terrible value of entertainment). They might even go back and play if they released some DLC mission packs or something of that nature.

Sorry, I don't agree (just for the sake of it, you know ;-))

The box sales were exceptionally successful for a RPG, single player or MMO. I don't think we need to discuss that.

Retention... now that is where people just love to make up "ideas" without actually current data being available.

First, the cornerstones:

BW said they had 1.7 Mio subscription at time of launch/shortly after.

At the beginning of May they gave a number of 1.3 Mio subscribers.

Now, the things to remember:

a) these numbers were probably pre-APAC, so there's problably a fair bit of potential hidden.

b) BW never confirmed (as far as I know) a loss of 400K subscriptions. You need to remember that we could easily be looking at SWTOR having gained 500K subscriptions since launch value and then over the time from Feb to Apr have lost 900K subscriptions.

The lost 400K subscriptions is the best possible assumption.

c) all of these numbers are from May. We are now in June.

d) additional sources like Xfire provide no subscription information only (very limited) information on active players.

e) there is a difference between subscriptions and active subscriptions! While subscriptions include players in trial phases or in the initial time of the game, active subscribers are those that are past the initial 30 days and are still p(l)aying.

 Last I read the confirmed number of active subscribers was 1 Mio. (May data)

Which meant that 300K of the subscribers were not yet considered active subscriber i.e. into their first actual billing cycle.

Which in turn could mean that by now these 300K could have gone off into the sunset or dug in and are p(l)aying SWTOR. Obviously, these are the extremes and the numbers can be split.

But staying with the extremes, it could mean that SWTOR has lost 700K out of 1.7 Mio subscribers... or 400K out of 1.7 Mio.  (and that is not mentioning the possibility of there actually having been even more subscribers than the 1.7-1.3 Mio data suggests! Remember that aspects like free weekend and buddy trials may also be factored into the subscriber numbers potentially...

Now, there is obviously a huge difference between losing about 25% of your (not active) subscribers and almost 50%.

The simple fact is: we don't know what's true!

Unless either BW or EA releases clear, hard numbers again, we are all just farting into the wind...

But what I'm really finding scary is how people always pull a B2P/F2P with item shop as the ultimate savior...

I don't know about you folks but me, yeah, if I like the game I'd prefer to have it all. At least as far as maps, quests, races, classes, etc. goes.

So, if I had to buy DLC worth $100 per year just to have it all (except of course certain luxary items for which I'd have to spend another $50, and booster packs, another $60, and who knows what) but don't have the - what I feel - guarantee that the game designer will actually try to make my overall game experience as positive as possible (by looking after the servers, by bug blasting old and new content, by adding new content outside any DLC packs, well, I'd rather pay my $15 each month and get it all.

 

 

  Trol1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 184

6/16/12 11:00:45 AM#353
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2
Originally posted by Tayah
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by achesoma

Instead of making a game for 2012 they made a game for 2007.  It's simply behind the times.  More of the same Skinner Box gear-grinder model.  The game lacks longevity.  After a few class stories completed not much else to do.  The combat is boring with way too many skills to manage and a poor energy bar system that has to be micromanaged.  Its only saving grace is the VO and story which was totally unnecessary for all the side quests, not to mention, a waste of time, money and resources.  Game certainly not worth the monthly sub.  Of course, all this has been stated time and time again. 

They do need more end content, and by the bunches.

 

That said, there are those of us having fun, and the numbers are still pretty good sized. Game isnt going anywhere anytime soon. I think the merge is going to be a good thing, and only wish they had limited servers in the first place.

The game is not pretty good sized. You don't do merges if you have over 1 million players playing. They've flat out lied about the numbers.

Mark Jacobs once said about Warhammer before it's release (and it came back to haunt him but thats another story), back in August 2008

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/08/29/ea-mythic-activision-world-of-warcraft-estimate-is-overblown/
"The corollary to that is if you've seen a game consolidate servers, you know it's in deep, deep trouble -- that's not a healthy sign for an MMO," he said,

“Look at us six months out. Look at us six weeks out. If we’re not adding servers, we’re not doing well.”

 

This still holds true today with any mmo that comes out. Bioware can spin it anyway they want, but the simple truth is they're not doing good.

i guess not very many people relize that swtor shipped with to many servers anyway.im not exactly calling swtor dead just because they merged alot of them recently.there just late to whole merging servers thing that should of been done 6 months ago

 

No servers have been merged! Please get your facts straight!

  jdlamson75

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/27/08
Posts: 897

There's some lovely filth down here.

6/16/12 11:01:55 AM#354

My reason for the game flopping:

 

It stopped being fun.  Simple enough reason, eh?

  Trol1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 184

6/17/12 12:22:12 AM#355
Originally posted by nyxium

Retrospectively:

 

Released too early, probably under pressure from EA management, this happened with Warhammer.

Patches weren't patches, but more bugs in an app. i.e. Ilum

Single player space combat. MMO needs MMO space combat and nothing but this. Consumers were not going to pay a sub for single player space combat when they signed up for a MMO.

Expensive game box's and preorders.

Many servers meant costs weren't been recovered only incremently accrued.

Subs might put people off if the game got trolled, or honestly constructively criticized dependent on view point.

Hype, too too too much hype. Hype puts them off after time.

SWG shutdown already cast a gloomy atmosphere before launch.

Tried to be WoW in space.

No night.

 

Mainly this.

Interesting points... and yet so pointless ;-)

Okay, when I beta'd SWTOR you know what the one thing was I was afraid I'd have to do with my Smuggler: space combat!

The opening cinematics made this pretty clear... and to be honest, the other classes just didn't really feel "space-y" in a not just travel but actually fight way.

Boy, was I glad that there was just this addon of space combat in SWTOR!

Are you understanding what I'm trying to say? So people - apparently you - think that in a game that is set up spanning a universe space combat is a must. Others prefer to look at the classic aspects of MMORPGs i.e. the characters.

As much as I'd like to cheer for a game like Mechwarrior Online, if I can't get out of my Mech, if I can't sneak up on an enemy Mech and planet a bomb on one of its legs and then watch from the top of a hill my Mech is savely parked behind how the other Mech topples over in a nice explosion, yeah, don't count me interested.

So, if you want a space combat flight sim, look around, there are other games, even free ones, though they may not have the SW mark.

Yes, the patches were... well... unwholesome to put it mildly, at least in the beginning... which has many fathers. One is definitely players (still) ignoring the PTS.

BW shouldn't have rushed out the patches after very little testing by very few but rather let the whole thing stew and then release a good patch...

the problem is just that some people were actually having real issue - not me - and they required help ASPA...

which creates a problem situation: do you try to help them at the risk of this really being a simple bandaid and potentially doingjust as much bad (or maybe even more) than good, or do you tell people to suck it up and wait until the patch is ready?

Neither of the 2 is better.

The problem people fail too understand is the complexity of modern computer systems. There are litteraslly hundreds, thousands of different graphics cards with different drivers/driver versions out there. If a company wanted to test all of them, they would already have lost out.

And at the same time you as the game designer need to remember that the gamer's system is his own responsibility: if the game has been confirmed as working fine with the driver version 2 numbers back and the gamer refuses to do a rollback because this newest version is running better with another game, it's up to the player to resolve that problem, not the game publisher (at least in the short run. Obviously they'll have to figure out why maybe the current driver version isn't ticking right with their game... though potentially before they get down to it a new driver may alread've been released...)

Expensive box and pre-orders? I'm not going to ask you if this was your first P2P MMO but, well, you can't have had many before, right?

Yes, the price was some $3 or 4 up above other games, but nothing really drastic... and I remember that very same model having been used thru the early years of the 21st century with MMORPG: you buy the box which costs about as much as a singleplayer game and the obviously comes the subscription... but SWTOR? Expensive? Nah...

"Subs might put people off if the game got trolled, or honestly constructively criticized dependent on view point.

Hype, too too too much hype. Hype puts them off after time."" """""""

Honestly, I have no clue what you are talking about!

I don't give a fuck about hype or trolling in regards to buying the game or not. I'll try to test the game (usually via beta) before buying it, but if there are too many "yeah" screechers or "hate" trollers, that may only effect my behaviour on the forums, not in regards to shelling out the money or not.

Sorry, I think I'm just too old to be bullied  or not being able to make my own judgment call.

"SWG shutdown already cast a gloomy atmosphere before launch."

Always love that "logic"...people who couldn't keep the simple fact straight that these are 2 separate games, well, I'm  sorry but you deserve to fall on your arse!

And yes, obviously everything is trying to be "WoW"... look TSW is WoW with X Files...

WoW has created a business model that is today just as successful as it was 5 years ago.

Now, this might sound like a dumb question but... why mess with it? Because a minority - yes, a minority! - wants to play something else? Hey, if another game publisher can come up with a business model just as successful, yes, of course, nothing wrong with going for that... but a) you will then eventually see the very same as you did with WoW i.e. clones of said new business model game popping up everywhere, and b) game publishers are not in the business for bringing gamers fun... they are in it for the money! So you may have to excuse them for thinking with their head rather than their heart!

Yes, the missing day/night cycle is a bit of a shame... and yet, after a while I didn't notice it anymore. And considering how "messed up" time is in SWTOR anyways (different planets with different rotations, distances that in RL even with a car would take hours just hopped away via speeder, etc.) I don't think having no day/night cycle is the ultimate deal breaker, at least not for me...

  Shazknee

Novice Member

Joined: 9/28/10
Posts: 85

6/17/12 12:38:21 AM#356

I don't get the whole "they've lost subs due to a lack of players"

 

Well thoose players left for a reason, it's a terrible mmo, which in the end caused the server issues.

 

I havent logged on since January, and I don't plan to play it ever again, neither does the other 20ish people i started SWTOR with, it's just a boring wow clone done worse tbh.

 

Sure the fans will tell everyone that the game is great now, that they did server merges, did merges fix bugs? lack of world pvp? horrible instances? Linear gaming? a dead world? a reason to revisit old "planets/hallways"?, WoW like armor? action delay?............and the list goes on.

 

No it didnt, it's the same shitty game I played in January, and there were people to group with back then, but even so we all left, some went back to EVE, some went back to WoW, and others waited for D3 and are busy with it till GW2 comes out.

 

I had alot of hopes for SWTOR, I can honestly live with a wall of bugs (Heck I played SWG for 2 years), but the game needs to be fun, and SWTOR just isnt, it's for the singleplayer/crazy starwars fan crowd, it's got nothing to do with a mmorpg, if SWTOR is a mmo, then so is D3 and GW, and the RPG part? every mmorpg I've played, the RPG part were between players, not you can a questgiver, someone seriously missunderstood something at Bioware.

 

@Trol1, great that you're lovng the game, but your points are just nonsense. Apparently it's the customers fault that the game failed? 

  Matticus75

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/18/05
Posts: 392

6/17/12 12:39:35 AM#357

I dont blame the devs, its the producers that control the resources

 

I recall when the game was first announced that it was going to have 3 factions, Sith, Republic, and another "Criminal" type faction

 

The Republic symbol was a the Empire Symbol, (Which if you think about it, it really is the correct Symbol) the Sith looked something like a neo nazi symbol with 3 "prongs" and Criminal faction looked something like the  bounter hunter type symbol

 

 

Bottom line the game goes from an Idea, then %90 of it gets cut

 

Just like TV shows, Music and another other art, the market attempts to reduce it to a "Formula" and then weights cost/benefits to produce the mediocre, over time product gets institutionalized

 

If a game can be made excellent at low cost, then cut more internally till it becomes mediocre

 

The market system the way it is always makes the mediocre in the end, at first something surburb, then reduced to the average

But like Mark Twain once said "I dont like the system, but its the best thing out there"

Oh well...........

 

 

  Moaky07

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/24/07
Posts: 2199

MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry.

6/17/12 1:17:58 AM#358
Originally posted by Shazknee

I don't get the whole "they've lost subs due to a lack of players"

 

Well thoose players left for a reason, it's a terrible mmo, which in the end caused the server issues.

 

I havent logged on since January, and I don't plan to play it ever again, neither does the other 20ish people i started SWTOR with, it's just a boring wow clone done worse tbh.

 

Sure the fans will tell everyone that the game is great now, that they did server merges, did merges fix bugs? lack of world pvp? horrible instances? Linear gaming? a dead world? a reason to revisit old "planets/hallways"?, WoW like armor? action delay?............and the list goes on.

 

No it didnt, it's the same shitty game I played in January, and there were people to group with back then, but even so we all left, some went back to EVE, some went back to WoW, and others waited for D3 and are busy with it till GW2 comes out.

 

I had alot of hopes for SWTOR, I can honestly live with a wall of bugs (Heck I played SWG for 2 years), but the game needs to be fun, and SWTOR just isnt, it's for the singleplayer/crazy starwars fan crowd, it's got nothing to do with a mmorpg, if SWTOR is a mmo, then so is D3 and GW, and the RPG part? every mmorpg I've played, the RPG part were between players, not you can a questgiver, someone seriously missunderstood something at Bioware.

 

@Trol1, great that you're lovng the game, but your points are just nonsense. Apparently it's the customers fault that the game failed? 

The game hasnt failed in reality.....certain MMORPG.com posters are far from reality, and I would present the 500M thread as evidence to that claim. Others would have us believe MMO sandboxes are the way to go, and not a single one has had more subs than EQ did 8 yrs ago.

 

When you say the game "isnt fun"....you mean to say "the game isnt fun to me". I happen to like it, and there are plenty of others shelling out the 15 per month, so they must as well.

 

TOR is still holding the 2nd most NA subs. I can live with it. Game sales plus subs thus far either have paid off production, or are pretty damn close to the 200M investment. Going forward is pure gravy for EA/BW/LA....something that seems to be escaping the folks crying wolf.

 

We wont be seeing a game revamp within 2 yrs, let alone a second one. Instead the cries of "it will closed in a yr" will really start to stand out like the claims of "Swg is shutting down in 3 months", and "We are getting back the PRECioUs". Just more wishful thinking from the usual crowd.

Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

  Greyhooff

Novice Member

Joined: 10/08/08
Posts: 684

6/17/12 4:20:22 AM#359
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by Shazknee
 

The game hasnt failed in reality.....certain MMORPG.com posters are far from reality, and I would present the 500M thread as evidence to that claim. Others would have us believe MMO sandboxes are the way to go, and not a single one has had more subs than EQ did 8 yrs ago.

 

 

The game has failed. Huge budget, huge IP, destroyed by incompetent scumbag developers and down to under 300k subs. That's failure, pure and simple.

SWTOR is an utter failure, the worst MMO failure in history. Not surprising since it is developed by the worst MMO developer team in history.

  Moaky07

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/24/07
Posts: 2199

MMO sandbox games are as exciting as watching paint dry.

6/17/12 4:58:05 AM#360
Originally posted by Greyhooff
Originally posted by Moaky07
Originally posted by Shazknee
 

The game hasnt failed in reality.....certain MMORPG.com posters are far from reality, and I would present the 500M thread as evidence to that claim. Others would have us believe MMO sandboxes are the way to go, and not a single one has had more subs than EQ did 8 yrs ago.

 

 

The game has failed. Huge budget, huge IP, destroyed by incompetent scumbag developers and down to under 300k subs. That's failure, pure and simple.

SWTOR is an utter failure, the worst MMO failure in history. Not surprising since it is developed by the worst MMO developer team in history.

Suuuuuure it has.

 

In 5 yrs, when the game is still chugging along, I bet you will still be trying to run the smack in this forum.

 

You have been running the 300 or 400k sub thing for a while now. You were full of shit then, and you still are. I would say the beating horse thing is quite apt. Now if you wanna photo ship your RL pic in for the information minister, and throw the caption 'I swear it  is going to shut down any minute now", you would have friggen gold.

 

There is nothing to support your, nor the OPs contention, yet you guys attempt to pass it off as fact. Which is par for the course when it comes to the haters around here.

Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.

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