Don't know about massive scam but yeah, failed design for sure. 

Many could say that the original design of mmos would be the failed design only in that they were not nearly as popular as modern mmos. There are so many ways of catagorizing somethign as failed ranging from not meeting expectations to failing to live up to what itt was ment to be. So if you compare the numbers of players that modern/wow mmos brought in to the pops of players in pre-modern mmos you could say that these early games were failures comparitively. Yet also you could look at how the two types of mmos adhereed to the ide od what an mmo was supposed to be by the players, and find that both sides see each other's mmos as failed too. Failed designs here will be more based on personal take on the genre not by trully the games failing or not.

Remember WoW was not the first MMO. MMOs didn't become a scam until after WoW showed up. The early days before WoW were worth every penny.

seems like you have a social anxiety disorder. MMOs might not be helping that

I'm a little confused why you played WoW for so long if you don't like playing with other people or MMO's; which is pretty much what I got from the post.

It's strange.  The combination of the avatar and some of the word usage had me imagining a females voice while I read the post, but no that wasn't right.

I don't want to be rude or offend the OP in any way.  I'm wondering if there might be some RL "orientation" that may be the root of the, what seems like, anti-social behavior and somwhat hostile attitude towards the playerbase.  I do apologize, I'm not tryign to flame the OP or anything.

im sorry but WoW is not a top class MMO... its too dumbed down for mass consumption, may as well call mcdonalds high quality burgers cause we all know its not.. 

WoW is at best and avarage quality mmo. nothing more nothing less, to use it as a crutch to imply that all games before or past its inception are scams or garbage.. is foolish as that means you personally have played every single game out there in the MMO bracket both before and after WoW (if that is true wow.. you have to be what late 30s by now ???)

MMOs are by design a team based system.. playing solo has always been determental to a game's enjoyment, unless the games core is 100% built for that. (think of mmos like a round of counter strike. you cant play CS on an empty server even with bots. its just not fun, but add in a full set of real players and the game is more enjoyable)

the only scams in MMOs are the ones put out by big wig companies that nickle and dime you for low quality crap. 

charging 30-60bucks for a boxed game (or D2D key) then another 10-15bucks sub for a game that is by all faults solitare... is a scam in my books. but then again most of those "scams" are created by the players who play them.. people today are far to happy to piss money down the toilet playing junk because some bigwig company's name is on it.. 

everyone knows, good games are diamonds in a whole big stinking pile of manure....

MMOs have their issues, but they also have some strenghts as well.

But they are made for social players, there is not really any need to design them for loners like OP, single player games are designed for those players.

Originally posted by Wizardry

It is the design of the games that fail because they are designed to solo,so you will NEVER get that feel of being a part of groups all the time and gaining steady friendships.Using Wow as an example,the whole design is based on you following those npc maakers all around zone to zone and there is absolutely no incentive or pressure to group up.So you spend 99% of the time soloing,there is not going to be that want to group attitude.

When a game example early years FFXI is designed to 90% of the time  group ,it becomes common place ,then people start statric groups to play steady with each other,become friends and learn from each other.

IMO WOW was a VERY bad design for this genre,because it was the game that the majority of MMO players played first.This is what they knew and grew up on and unless you were one of the few that actually played early FFXI you would have NEVER understood a grouping game.

EQ was no better,that game ,including EQ2 is more about dungeon looting,that is not grouping for the sake of the game and having fun with combat,that is just chasing chest loot.Once again the FFXI game did NOT cater to that,if you wanted the rarfe loot,it truly was RARE and took a long time to camp it.Nope the basis of the design was to enjoy your characters skills,adavancing your character over SEVERAL classes ,not just one and end game.

There is of course always the people that don't want to play with others,well all i can say is why play a MMO ONLINE to play by yourself?It makes no sense whatsoever.If you enjoy that type of game,then those soloists should be lobbying developers to make that type of game for soloers.What WOW tried to do is make a superficial game,the solo part was really simple ,then  copy that EQ dungeon looting.You played ONLY one class so character developement was far below what FFXI offered for skills and advancement.

Choice is a good thing,i am not about to say solo or MMO is better,they EACH have their place,we have ALL played solo rpg's and MMO rpg's.The only issue i have is the CHOICE is SHALLOW,FFXI has changed so now ALL the games are designed to solo and random group up for loot.That gives us ZERO choice which is why so many are not happy with game design right now.

Don't beleive me??Name ONE game that doesn't use hand holding markers over npc heads?Markers on maps?XP and loot tied to those marker quests?heck it's all designed to be a simple solofest.

 

 

 

This is about the only decent response to the OP so far.

I don't think the OP is alone at all in struggling with the design of MMOs. I certainly do. The last MMO I really gave a decent shot at being social in was Rift. Ok, doesn't help I'm Australian, living in Australia and find most Australians to be beer-guzzling ungrateful wankers, but still, I tried. Think it was 4 guilds I joined and left. Finding like-minded people was very difficult, and even when I did, they would often have "given in" to the loot is everything rule that dominates MMOs since WoW.

I even tried roleplaying a dwarven merchant, calling out bargains and jesting with whoever even glanced my way. I was on a RP server, but it didn't really help.

I think it was partly also because I could only play a few hours, every second or third day, because I'm a busy academic.

Now, since the gameplay allows single player progress much of the time then what you end up doing is playing alone like the OP mentions (and you are alone even when grouped to do dungeons when everyone else is silent because silence is the best way to get the loot fastest), eventually realising that the gameplay is really repetitive and leaving.

Not sure that MMOs are a massive scam (though they are going that way as RMT stealthily creeps into the game every way the designers can imagine) but I begin to agree the current design is failing.

Let's clarify a few points.

MMO's have not failed, people buy/play them by the millions and companies are making money off of them.

MMO's are not scams, they are designed to make money for their Developers, if they happen to entertain you in the process they're likely to make a bunch of money. (esp in the term of long term subs or purchases from the cash shop)

MMORPG's may have evolved in different directions than some of us would like (me, I prefer more realistic virtual worlds with consequences for failure, a la EVE) however that does not mean as a genre they have failed.

Some MMO titles do certainly fail (close their doors or go on life support), but overall I keep seeing new titles released every year so again, someone is having fun out there.

MMO's can provide a good social experience.  I'll grant you, they are not designed around social mechanics anywhere near what they were in the past, but still, if you go looking for people to play with, you'll find them.

That said, they are not a substitute for having a real world social life and they won't fix it if you don't have one. (speaking as one with experience)

There is much I don't like about today's MMO's, however there are more than enough titles that I manage to "find the fun" in even if it's only for a shorter period of time than I would prefer.

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Originally posted by Mike-McQueen
I would agree with "themeparks are a failed design".

How do you figure?  The most popular MMOs have been themeparks.  Kind of a stretch to call that a "failed design."  There just happens to be an overabundance of them right now, many of which have done it wrong.  

Ditto.  The failure is in implementation, not in the genre.

Originally posted by Loke666

MMOs have their issues, but they also have some strenghts as well.

But they are made for social players, there is not really any need to design them for loners like OP, single player games are designed for those players.

This

Originally posted by RudyRaccoon

<bitching />

Seriously how do you people put up with this? Joining guilds or groups is not for me because all people do is bitch or stay silent.

<more bitching />

The irony here is so thick I can't stop laughing...

The OP has to be taknig the piss right???

So mmorpgs are a scam because you dont like interacting with other people in a game? and because of this you get bored by yourself... your really not making any sense at all LOL...

Look MMORPGs are designed for people to play togeather its the entire reason they where created.. if you dont want to do that then why in hell are you even here?

Most people who play MMORPGs want to play with other people and most have fun doing this, its also a good way to spend your money if your having fun.. so you pay say £30 for the game and then £15 a month after and this is usually for 100s of hours of entertainment...

Anyway its time you went off and played some single player games.. bye

Originally posted by Kyleran

Let's clarify a few points.

MMO's have not failed, people buy/play them by the millions and companies are making money off of them.

MMO's are not scams, they are designed to make money for their Developers, if they happen to entertain you in the process they're likely to make a bunch of money. (esp in the term of long term subs or purchases from the cash shop)

MMORPG's may have evolved in different directions than some of us would like (me, I prefer more realistic virtual worlds with consequences for failure, a la EVE) however that does not mean as a genre they have failed.

Some MMO titles do certainly fail (close their doors or go on life support), but overall I keep seeing new titles released every year so again, someone is having fun out there.

MMO's can provide a good social experience.  I'll grant you, they are not designed around social mechanics anywhere near what they were in the past, but still, if you go looking for people to play with, you'll find them.

That said, they are not a substitute for having a real world social life and they won't fix it if you don't have one. (speaking as one with experience)

There is much I don't like about today's MMO's, however there are more than enough titles that I manage to "find the fun" in even if it's only for a shorter period of time than I would prefer.

 

Yes and no.

I agree that "failing" is not the best word to use here but commercial viability is not the only yardstick to be used. The slot machine gambling industry in Australia is thriving but at the cost of lives (suicides) and families breaking up and societies general well-being. Sure, the industry is a fantastic commercial success but so the hell what? I'm certainly not going to stop criticising it or arguing it needs to be better regulated because it makes money for people that are already rich.

MMOs are fast becoming scams. The P2W movement is screaming scam. Sure, the vast majority can play them and spend hardly any money, but the design relies on a small percentage of players spending big. If you genuinely believe those players spending hundreds of dollars are not getting scammed and truly getting their moneys worth you are out of your mind. It is not very different to e-mail scams that flourish because a teeny tiny percentage of people are stupid enough to click on the link.

At my most cynical, I'd say it is only a matter of time before cash shops are ubiquitous and MMO gameplay is designed to gently nudge you to spend more money every time you turn a corner.

MMO's like LOTRO, EVERQUEST2, etc used to be a blast. You paid a monthly fee and bought an expac once a year or so and access to everything the game has to offer.

Then came the Freemium model with DDO and later LOTRO and EQ2.... EQ2 already started with a cashshop before that.

Yes... then it just becomes all a scam! Especially in DDO and LOTRO, which have become pretty much Pay2win with lots of stuff in their shops.

And the latest expansion for LOTRO, Riders of Rohan is a prime example of Corporate greed gone too far!

Free 2 Play MMO's were always a scam, hence why I avoided them like the plague.

Originally posted by Strap

At my most cynical, I'd say it is only a matter of time before cash shops are ubiquitous and MMO gameplay is designed to gently nudge you to spend more money every time you turn a corner.

I agree.  I don't see this as cynical, just realistic.  The skinner box has switched from push a button get a cookie to use a credit card get a cookie.

I try to not make ethical judgement on this other than in my own interaction with a game.  In a way most marketing is at least somewhat predatory.  I liken it to this quote:

“Advertising is the art of convincing people to spend money they don't have for something they don't need.” Will Rogers

The new batch of single player "mmo's" are a failed design, that's pretty obvious to even the most foolish.

Past games which birthed the genre, where community reliance and even dependancy are still a very viable model. They may not appear desirable on paper (much like DayZ for example) but which do bring mmo's in to a whole new level of gaming.

The only thing I agree with from the OP is that it can be very difficult to find like-minded or even social players in today's MMORPGs.

Originally posted by Strap

Originally posted by Kyleran

Let's clarify a few points.

MMO's have not failed, people buy/play them by the millions and companies are making money off of them.

MMO's are not scams, they are designed to make money for their Developers, if they happen to entertain you in the process they're likely to make a bunch of money. (esp in the term of long term subs or purchases from the cash shop)

MMORPG's may have evolved in different directions than some of us would like (me, I prefer more realistic virtual worlds with consequences for failure, a la EVE) however that does not mean as a genre they have failed.

Some MMO titles do certainly fail (close their doors or go on life support), but overall I keep seeing new titles released every year so again, someone is having fun out there.

MMO's can provide a good social experience.  I'll grant you, they are not designed around social mechanics anywhere near what they were in the past, but still, if you go looking for people to play with, you'll find them.

That said, they are not a substitute for having a real world social life and they won't fix it if you don't have one. (speaking as one with experience)

There is much I don't like about today's MMO's, however there are more than enough titles that I manage to "find the fun" in even if it's only for a shorter period of time than I would prefer.

 

 

Yes and no.

 

I agree that "failing" is not the best word to use here but commercial viability is not the only yardstick to be used. The slot machine gambling industry in Australia is thriving but at the cost of lives (suicides) and families breaking up and societies general well-being. Sure, the industry is a fantastic commercial success but so the hell what? I'm certainly not going to stop criticising it or arguing it needs to be better regulated because it makes money for people that are already rich.

 

MMOs are fast becoming scams. The P2W movement is screaming scam. Sure, the vast majority can play them and spend hardly any money, but the design relies on a small percentage of players spending big. If you genuinely believe those players spending hundreds of dollars are not getting scammed and truly getting their moneys worth you are out of your mind. It is not very different to e-mail scams that flourish because a teeny tiny percentage of people are stupid enough to click on the link.

 At my most cynical, I'd say it is only a matter of time before cash shops are ubiquitous and MMO gameplay is designed to gently nudge you to spend more money every time you turn a corner.

Well of course one has to define what they mean by the term failure, and I'm not going to deny that perhaps MMO's fail in some other social categories when applying moral judgements, but in general they are not considered "vices" and comparisons to activities such as gambling or prostitution are probably not valid.  People get addicted to all sorts of things but should we ban them because some portion of the population does so. Probably not.

Now, regarding the highlighted portion of post.  I guess I am "out of my mind" because I see people willingly spending their own money on a product (service?) that they clearly enjoy doing so.

I think people who purchase designer label clothes or Rolex watches are foolish in their choices, but really, who am I to tell them how to manage their personal resources?

I've had up to 4 subs in EVE at the same time (paying for them with cash, not ISK), am I crazy?  No, I can afford it and chose to do so, CCP didn't scam me.

I've purchased items in a cash shop and the only time I felt scammed is when the company offered great discounts on some very useful items to encourage purchases, and then shut down about 3 weeks later.  Have to admit being a bit pissed at that one.

In the end it is up to you to manage your own spending habits and social activities, and I'm not going to rail that the industry has failed because it doesn't measure up to someone's social or moral agenda.

Sure, they've failed to deliver a gaming experience that I prefer playing, but that really doesn't constiute an overall failure of the genre. (IMO)

In the end, all that really does matter is if they are finanically successful, at least to the folks who chose to create them.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Let's clarify a few points.

MMO's have not failed, people buy/play them by the millions and companies are making money off of them.

MMO's are not scams, they are designed to make money for their Developers, if they happen to entertain you in the process they're likely to make a bunch of money. (esp in the term of long term subs or purchases from the cash shop)

MMORPG's may have evolved in different directions than some of us would like (me, I prefer more realistic virtual worlds with consequences for failure, a la EVE) however that does not mean as a genre they have failed.

Some MMO titles do certainly fail (close their doors or go on life support), but overall I keep seeing new titles released every year so again, someone is having fun out there.

MMO's can provide a good social experience.  I'll grant you, they are not designed around social mechanics anywhere near what they were in the past, but still, if you go looking for people to play with, you'll find them.

 

You there, knock off all that sense-making. This is the internet.