Originally posted by Moaky07

 ... so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

 

i agree that a open and free sandbox might become more of a beast than a theme-park, if it comes to balancing. and this means a hell of work, if you dont plan to simplify everythig like usual.

but, if you separate PvP and PVE skillsets and mechanics clearly, it will become easier. and in PvE balancing often hurts more than it helps. look at old-school games. fairly unbalanced in PvE but great class diversification and a lot of more tactcal options per class than any of the today games. 

My estimation:

100 MMOs on kickstarter

• 1 makes it huge big.
• 9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
• 10 make it to release and struggle.
• 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).

Originally posted by XAPGames

My estimation:

100 MMOs on kickstarter

• 1 makes it huge big.
• 9 make a profit after release and can continue development.
• 10 make it to release and struggle.
• 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).

 

 

Overall impact?  Minimal except in rare cases.

 

Savior of the genre?  One can only hope.

i agree, but this is just the 1st round. now estimate what happens in the 2nd round, if we really get 1 great game and 9 with a decent Return on Investment in the next years. just 80% vaporware would be a huge success in the eyes of venture capital investors. afterwards they will watch kickstarter very closely.

both repop and pathfinder have great ideas but to me if i was to invest in a game it would have to be repop...the hardest part is to convert your ideas into a practical game. repop is halfway there but i havent seen anything from pathfinder..i'm not saying pathfinder is gonna be shit..im just not willing to put my money where i only see ideas and nothing concrete

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Originally posted by XAPGames
My estimation:

100 MMOs on kickstarter

• 1 makes it huge big.
• 9 make a profit after release and can continue development. 10 make it to release and struggle. 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).

    Overall impact?  Minimal except in rare cases.   Savior of the genre?  One can only hope.

---

1 out of 100 being "huge" is "huge" in overestimation only.

Kickstarter is strongly supporting non-viable projects so chance that any decent game will come out of it is very very scarce...

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Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

afterwards they will watch kickstarter very closely.

---

No investor is looking to invest into beggars.

You got it messed up quite a bit. People asking for donations on Kickstarter are those who were already refused by investors and failed in their business even before they released their product.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by XAPGames
My estimation:

 

100 MMOs on kickstarter

• 1 makes it huge big.
• 9 make a profit after release and can continue development. 10 make it to release and struggle. 80 don't make it to release (not enough funding or management issues).

    Overall impact?  Minimal except in rare cases.   Savior of the genre?  One can only hope.

---

 

1 out of 100 being "huge" is "huge" in overestimation only.

Kickstarter is strongly supporting non-viable projects so chance that any decent game will come out of it is very very scarce...

 

Yeah I dont expect the repopulation to do any better than a MO or DF, but at least they are trying.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

afterwards they will watch kickstarter very closely.

---

 

No investor is looking to invest into beggars.

You got it messed up quite a bit. People asking for donations on Kickstarter are those who were already refused by investors and failed in their business even before they released their product.

Some kickstarter projects are to show investors that there is a demand and X amount of people actually shelled out $$$ for it.

I supported 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/486250632/republique-by-camouflaj-logan

that is like this.

Yes, a Jennifer Hale tweet saying 'hey I am going to be in this game' = OMG HERE IS MY WALLET! :P

After reading this thread I am tempted to believe that I understood kickstarter wrong. I've actually followed that project on various titles and most of the time the only stuff you get out of putting down even excessive amounts of money are ingame items, game time, signed stuff and one or several chances to meet the devs on a more or less fancy occasion. So for me Kickstarter has absolutely NOTHING to do with any actual investments so please stop talking about return on investments, return on capital employed, EVAs or whatever. The only thing that such fans that DONATE cash in kickstarter should be interested in is if the game will make it and also last long enough for them to cherish their tiny bonuses. There are no actual investors on Kickstarter.

Originally posted by jpnz

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

afterwards they will watch kickstarter very closely.

---

 

No investor is looking to invest into beggars.

You got it messed up quite a bit. People asking for donations on Kickstarter are those who were already refused by investors and failed in their business even before they released their product.

Some kickstarter projects are to show investors that there is a demand and X amount of people actually shelled out $$$ for it.

I supported 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/486250632/republique-by-camouflaj-logan

that is like this.

Yes, a Jennifer Hale tweet saying 'hey I am going to be in this game' = OMG HERE IS MY WALLET! :P

Good point i  must admit Kickstarter really suprised me as i was unaware of it myself,but the amount of projects being supported is staggering and even more amazeing when u check out the backers for Repop and others some of these guys are supporting multiple pitch's somer get funded some don't ,also refreshing to see many Kickstarter pitchers especially indie devs supporting each other as well.

But the power is now with the people and not in the hands of greedy executives who for example broke many a devs heart  when cutting their ideas,as they had the power and not the devs but if the devs have the money which is basically power then like i said before they can forge their own destiny it may take longer and yes it may fail but at least they now have a viable option as the economy is shot to pieces so they will find it hard to get a bank loan or find investors the old fashioned way.

Originally posted by Moaky07

Well first off, I believe you are one of the Devs working on the Repopulation, so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

Second off....it is a bit shifty IMO to be propping up the system you aim to use(Kickstarter), and not at least identify yourself.

Third off....I will wish ya luck on your venture. I can respect someone actually trying to make something they want, vs being forced to endure constant whining cause the world doesnt work how you wish. I mean this with the utmost sincerity.

1) Generated and player created content requires a lot more initial work. Once they are functional though they require a lot less long term work, because players will be creating situations and content can be reused with generation. Each game is different, but in general I can't see any reason that someone could claim a sandbox would cost them more money to produce than a theme park game.

2) Not hiding that I'm a developer, I think it's relatively well known. I post semi-regularly in the pub on various topics. The only time I've ever felt the need to identify myself is when answering questions about the game in comments threads, etc. The things I said about Kickstarter a generalized things.

Having been making indie games for many years now, and having worked on Repop for the past four years though allows me to give a different perspective that hadn't really been presented in the thread. For things like budget, indie developers have to be cost efficient, there's really no way around it. But that doesn't necessarily mean that they can't produce quality products. In 1992 Batman Returns had a $80 million budget, where Resevoir Dogs cost $1 million to make. Resevoir Dogs was a far better movie.

Not all of the people kickstarting these projects are newcomers though. In the past few months we've seen a new Wasteland, Leisure Suit Larry, Shadowrun games get funded, as well as projects from the creators of SpaceQuest and Monkey Isle receive funding. And certainly not all of them are people who were rejected by publishers (as someone here suggested) either.

There are some harsh realities on how game publishing works:

The publisher generally advances the funds, and take a large chunk of the royalties for that investment. Your advance must be paid back before you see any royalties. This is why you often here that most games don't make money. Often developers don't make back enough royalties and they turn to their next game and a new advance.

Developers generally get their advances in installments. They have milestones to get the next deal. If things go poorly in development, they often are forced to launch before they are ready. Sometimes games get cancelled. Sometimes creative control is lost. Many of the decisions behind the scenes are not in the control of the developer's, but in the hands of publisher's who may not be on the same page as them.

From a developer's standpoint you don't really want to deal with any of  that... but for years that was the only way to get your game on shelves. With electronic distribution that is less of a problem than it was in the past. It's still a route many people go down though because it gives them exposure and often funds their development. That's not going to change.

Where Kickstarter changes that, is that it gives developers a viable alternative to publishers and  venture capitolists. And it allows them to take more risks than publishers may be willing to take. There's a reason there are so many wow-like MMOs these days. Half of that because that is seen as a proven formula. The other half is that investors want to invest in the safe bet. That doesn't mean sandbox or outside of the box MMOs can't get published. There are opportunities out there, but they come with strings attached.

My personal thoughts on Kickstarter is that it's a good thing. That doesn't mean I'm going to go through and put money on every game idea out there, or that anyone else should either. Any time you spend money you should do your homework. I can understand people being skeptical about how they spend their hard earned cash.

I don't really understand the resentment towards Kickstarter though, or people who like to condascend others for contributing to projects. There are generally good incentives from most projects, which allows players to get some added value for their contributions when the game ships. Obviously it doesn't do you much good if the game doesn't ship, but that's where using your head and choosing your projects wisely comes into play.

Originally posted by JC-Smith

Originally posted by Moaky07

Well first off, I believe you are one of the Devs working on the Repopulation, so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

Second off....it is a bit shifty IMO to be propping up the system you aim to use(Kickstarter), and not at least identify yourself.

Third off....I will wish ya luck on your venture. I can respect someone actually trying to make something they want, vs being forced to endure constant whining cause the world doesnt work how you wish. I mean this with the utmost sincerity.

1) Generated and player created content requires a lot more initial work. Once they are functional though they require a lot less long term work, because players will be creating situations and content can be reused with generation. Each game is different, but in general I can't see any reason that someone could claim a sandbox would cost them more money to produce than a theme park game.

2) Not hiding that I'm a developer, I think it's relatively well known. I post semi-regularly in the pub on various topics. The only time I've ever felt the need to identify myself is when answering questions about the game in comments threads, etc. The things I said about Kickstarter a generalized things.

Having been making indie games for many years now, and having worked on Repop for the past four years probably gives me a bit more of a perspective from the indie side of things and on maximizing your dollar. But not all of the people kickstarting these projects are newcomers. In the past few months we've seen a new Wasteland, Leisure Suit Larry, Shadowrun games get funded, as well as projects from the creators of SpaceQuest and Monkey Isle receive funding. And certainly not all of them are people who were rejected by publishers (as someone here suggested) either.

There are some harsh realities on how game publishing works:

The publisher generally advances the funds, and take a large chunk of the royalties for that investment. Your advance must be paid back before you see any royalties. This is why you often here that most games don't make money. Often developers don't make back enough royalties and they turn to their next game and a new advance.

Developers generally get their advances in installments. They have milestones to get the next deal. If things go poorly in development, they often are forced to launch before they are ready. Sometimes games get cancelled. Sometimes creative control is lost. Many of the decisions behind the scenes are not in the control of the developer's, but in the hands of publisher's who may not be on the same page as them.

From a developer's standpoint you don't really want to deal with any of  that... but for years that was the only way to get your game on shelves. With electronic distribution that is less of a problem than it was in the past. It's still a route many people go down though because it gives them exposure and often funds their development. That's not going to change.

Where Kickstarter changes that, is that it gives developers a viable alternative to publishers and  venture capitolists. And it allows them to take more risks than publishers may be willing to take. There's a reason there are so many wow-like MMOs these days. Half of that because that is seen as a proven formula. The other half is that investors want to invest in the safe bet. That doesn't mean sandbox or outside of the box MMOs can't get published. There are opportunities out there, but they come with strings attached.

My personal thoughts on Kickstarter is that it's a good thing. That doesn't mean I'm going to go through and put money on every game idea out there, or that anyone else should either. Any time you spend money you should do your homework. I can understand people being skeptical about how they spend their hard earned cash.

I don't really understand the resentment towards Kickstarter though, or people who like to condascend others for contributing to projects. There are generally good incentives from most projects, which allows players to get some added value for their contributions when the game ships. Obviously it doesn't do you much good if the game doesn't ship, but that's where using your head and choosing your projects wisely comes into play.

Thanks JC appreciate the input considering your busy scedhule communication like this  is the one of many reasons I backed Repop.

@mOAKY7  As above this is a typical post from The Co-owner and if you check out the forums and Kickstarter, there is no way they are hideing anything the teams honesty is pretty much their major plus factor among many.

Well kickstarter has shown that there are a shit load of people who want a good sandbox MMORPG and are generally bored with the same old themepark games..

SO its off to a good start thats for sure and the future does look good.. but we still have to wait and see if any of the companies actually finish anything..

I think The Repopulation will be the first out of the bag as there has been a ton of work done on it already and its already in a alpha state, the devs behind it came to kickstarter to get some additional fund to make the game even better.. SO i really do think we will get to see a finished product with this and it already sounds like its gonna be a great game... The only issue with The Repopulation is that they have gone down the f2p + cash shop route.. probalyl the worse thing to happen to the MMORPG industry.. ah well will still be keeping an eye on it.

As for the others well we will have to wait and see.. but in general i think Kickstarter will be a great thing for the MMORPG industry hopefully some big publishers will see that there is a big part of the mmorpg player base that dont want spoon fed dumbed down themepark mmos

I think main issue with kickstarter is finding the budget needed and people who can realy do it. Personaly I don't believe in it happening for MMORPGs... Expectations are just too large these days...

Originally posted by Ekaros

I think main issue with kickstarter is finding the budget needed and people who can realy do it. Personaly I don't believe in it happening for MMORPGs... Expectations are just too large these days...

Well that can be said for many projects but Repop has been self funded and the Kickstarter is there as a boost,if god forbid it failed and considering they only need 5k to meet their very modest 25k  target still with 20 days left.!!

So i'm very positive they will hit that and besides they would still forge ahead as we have Alpha in June but at a slower pace,but if fingers crossed they hit the projected trending target then they play in a different ball park altogether 

I find it funny people are easily parted with their money on promises alone.  And video game developers are just as bad as politicians

Originally posted by Warmaker

I find it funny people are easily parted with their money on promises alone.  And video game developers are just as bad as politicians

Lol,yeah this is the first time i've done anything like this there is a real foundation here as in Alpha more footage and Mo interviews and features to get the word spread oh and the matter of a very successful Kickstarter pitch

But i have been following Repop since 2011 so this is not a snap descision on my part, I  wonder what was said about Minecraft in the early days now look at it. 

Originally posted by Warmaker

I find it funny people are easily parted with their money on promises alone.  And video game developers are just as bad as politicians

I take it you never went to those '10k per person for a fund-raiser' thingy for a policitian?

If you are a good communicator the networking you can do in a place like that is way more valuable than the price you pay.

For me it was my favorite Voice actress (Jennifer Hale)  tweeting that she was going to be in a partially kickstarter-funded game rather than the 'promise' or w/e was on that game description page.

Embers of Caerus is using the kickstarter program they asked for 20K and have already recieved 30K+ I think there is still a week to go with kickstarter for more donations. Anyway that being said I think Kickstarter is a great way for an awesome idea to become reality for small Indy companies that are working with very little or nothing at all.

Originally posted by Saydien

 So for me Kickstarter has absolutely NOTHING to do with any actual investments so please stop talking about return on investments, return on capital employed, EVAs or whatever. The only thing that such fans that DONATE cash in kickstarter should be interested in is if the game will make it and also last long enough for them to cherish their tiny bonuses. There are no actual investors on Kickstarter.

of course there are no investors on kickstarter and they never will be there donating money, because they are not donators; they are investors. but some of the projects on kickstarter are asking for money to support the 1st stage of development up to the point, where they are able to present investors a showcase. the next stage will of course not happen on kickstarter.

and btw, there are other sites, where you actually can invest in MMOs starting with 5€; not just donate. and yes, you become a shareholder (of a closed fund).