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Originally posted by waynejr2

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Originally posted by darker70  

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Originally posted by teakbois Kickstarter has had, and will have, about zero impact on the industry.

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  How the heck can u say that look at all the projects funded,are u seriously suggesting that no games will be made at all and who is to say the next big thing is not around the corner,look at CCP they were a tiny company what if they had not created Eve and now pitched it on Kickstarter now as there only way to fund the game it's an example but i think they would have an effect on the industry even as a fictional example.

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Do you understand the meaning of putting the cart before the horse?

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Do you understand the concept of big tree's grow small acorns?

Originally posted by Burntvet

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by darker70

 

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Originally posted by teakbois
Kickstarter has had, and will have, about zero impact on the industry.

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How the heck can u say that look at all the projects funded,are u seriously suggesting that no games will be made at all and who is to say the next big thing is not around the corner,look at CCP they were a tiny company what if they had not created Eve and now pitched it on Kickstarter now as there only way to fund the game it's an example but i think they would have an effect on the industry even as a fictional example.

 CCP is an exception and no the norm, and they benefit from having been able to survive to the point of becoming the best sandbox mmo on the market.  Where are the sandbox people supposed to go when your options are either an internet spaceship game, or a bad sandbox game? 

And along the way they pioneered technology.  I really have my doubts that one of these kickstarter guys is going to end up developing server technology that is going to benefit the entire industry like CCP did. 

How do I put this?  Funcom made a game engine, and everyone gushes over it's graphics, but it's really all about DX features and doen't do anything special.  CCP, they made carbon, carbon makes funcoms engine look like it's 20 years old.  The procedural generation and dynamic interaction that the carbon engine is designed for isn't found in any other MMO engine.  Even today they're redoing all the textures in the game to take advantage of a 2d texturing technology that creates 3d effects without adding a single extra polygon to any of the models.  I'm not familliar with any other MMO using this.

I do not think CCP could get to where they are today, if they had to do it through kickstarter, and I can't imagine a company coming out of kickstarter that will be able to do what CCP has done.

 

Yes I am a fanboy of CCP, and no I'm not ashamed to admit it.

Yeah, EvE was very much the exception, and there are even arguements that if EvE came out now, the way it did back then, would it make it?

For EvE being about the only indie success story, you have Earthrise, APB, MO and several other games that are failed or on their way coming out of the indie space. Even the well funded studios have been doing lousy the last few years.

So I would hugely surprised if anything good ever came out of a Kickstarter MMO.

 

Eve came out in 2003 and grew from there.  We have no idea how well it would do if it was released today.

Originally posted by darker70

 

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Originally posted by waynejr2

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Originally posted by darker70  

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Originally posted by teakbois Kickstarter has had, and will have, about zero impact on the industry.

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  How the heck can u say that look at all the projects funded,are u seriously suggesting that no games will be made at all and who is to say the next big thing is not around the corner,look at CCP they were a tiny company what if they had not created Eve and now pitched it on Kickstarter now as there only way to fund the game it's an example but i think they would have an effect on the industry even as a fictional example.

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Do you understand the meaning of putting the cart before the horse?

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Do you understand the concept of big tree's grow small acorns?

Tell me about it...

Originally posted by darker70

 

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Originally posted by waynejr2

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Originally posted by darker70  

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Originally posted by teakbois Kickstarter has had, and will have, about zero impact on the industry.

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  How the heck can u say that look at all the projects funded,are u seriously suggesting that no games will be made at all and who is to say the next big thing is not around the corner,look at CCP they were a tiny company what if they had not created Eve and now pitched it on Kickstarter now as there only way to fund the game it's an example but i think they would have an effect on the industry even as a fictional example.

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Do you understand the meaning of putting the cart before the horse?

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Do you understand the concept of big tree's grow small acorns?

You are trying discus kickstarter stopping the stagnation of the entire mmorpg market.  Get real and stop trying to be full of yourself.   It has not produced a single mmorpg.  PERIOD.  It hasn't gotten rid of the stagnation at all.

To hell with the potential of it all.  Results matter not potential.

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Burntvet

Yeah, EvE was very much the exception, and there are even arguements that if EvE came out now, the way it did back then, would it make it?

For EvE being about the only indie success story, you have Earthrise, APB, MO and several other games that are failed or on their way coming out of the indie space. Even the well funded studios have been doing lousy the last few years.

So I would hugely surprised if anything good ever came out of a Kickstarter MMO.

 

Eve came out in 2003 and grew from there.  We have no idea how well it would do if it was released today.

Right, but it came out in somewhat rough shape, and it had some problems for the first year+. Games that don't start well out of the gate are tending to not do so well these days.

Also, there were many fewer games available to play back then, so a lot of people, or some at least, that stuck with EvE, might not have, had there been a lot of chocies... like there are now.

So, it could be that EvE was a success of its time and its timing for the kind of game it was, and thus even less likely to be repeated.

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Originally posted by waynejr2

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Originally posted by Burntvet

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Originally posted by Uhwop

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Originally posted by darker70  

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Originally posted by teakbois Kickstarter has had, and will have, about zero impact on the industry.

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  How the heck can u say that look at all the projects funded,are u seriously suggesting that no games will be made at all and who is to say the next big thing is not around the corner,look at CCP they were a tiny company what if they had not created Eve and now pitched it on Kickstarter now as there only way to fund the game it's an example but i think they would have an effect on the industry even as a fictional example.

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 CCP is an exception and no the norm, and they benefit from having been able to survive to the point of becoming the best sandbox mmo on the market.  Where are the sandbox people supposed to go when your options are either an internet spaceship game, or a bad sandbox game?  And along the way they pioneered technology.  I really have my doubts that one of these kickstarter guys is going to end up developing server technology that is going to benefit the entire industry like CCP did.  How do I put this?  Funcom made a game engine, and everyone gushes over it's graphics, but it's really all about DX features and doen't do anything special.  CCP, they made carbon, carbon makes funcoms engine look like it's 20 years old.  The procedural generation and dynamic interaction that the carbon engine is designed for isn't found in any other MMO engine.  Even today they're redoing all the textures in the game to take advantage of a 2d texturing technology that creates 3d effects without adding a single extra polygon to any of the models.  I'm not familliar with any other MMO using this. I do not think CCP could get to where they are today, if they had to do it through kickstarter, and I can't imagine a company coming out of kickstarter that will be able to do what CCP has done.   Yes I am a fanboy of CCP, and no I'm not ashamed to admit it.

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Yeah, EvE was very much the exception, and there are even arguements that if EvE came out now, the way it did back then, would it make it? For EvE being about the only indie success story, you have Earthrise, APB, MO and several other games that are failed or on their way coming out of the indie space. Even the well funded studios have been doing lousy the last few years. So I would hugely surprised if anything good ever came out of a Kickstarter MMO.  

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Eve came out in 2003 and grew from there.  We have no idea how well it would do if it was released today.

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I was there in 2004'ish i had to buy the CD and it was the Blue Client,and if u were there u will know it was a bit of a mess and touch and go if it survived,but after they broke the world record 10k barrier,it all changed as the client finally stablised to the point that it did not crash every sunday night and finally played on ATI cards.

Originally posted by teakbois

Kickstarter has had, and will have, about zero impact on the industry.

       I dont even know what kickstarter is......Thats how much it has impacted me.....

Don't be rude guys, you are just unveiling yourselves as the greedy corporate owners that are mad about losing money in the future.

Then let me ask you guys this... How come... Big game developers (and Movie devs) put themselves on Kickstarters? You guys have something twirled around your finger. And that is that you believe cashcows is the solution to everything. 

EA spent 200 million on an AAA game which to many is a B game. You need to play smart with money and these kickstart campaigners are working their ass of to create new stuff to the public.

You must realise that Kickstarters projects are some peoples dreams, if there ever would be a fraud, the public would get their money back and the person in question would have a lot to give back until he passes away. If can't pay all debt until he dies, his children would have to pay back and so on.

With 200,000 dollars you can order 1000 high quality models from 3d teams services.

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Originally posted by sagil
Don't be rude guys, you are just unveiling yourselves as the greedy corporate owners that are mad about losing money in the future.

Then let me ask you guys this... How come... Big game developers (and Movie devs) put themselves on Kickstarters? You guys have something twirled around your finger. And that is that you believe cashcows is the solution to everything. 

EA spent 200 million on an AAA game which to many is a B game. You need to play smart with money and these kickstart campaigners are working their ass of to create new stuff to the public.

You must realise that Kickstarters projects are some peoples dreams, if there ever would be a fraud, the public would get their money back and the person in question would have a lot to give back until he passes away. If can't pay all debt until he dies, his children would have to pay back and so on.

With 200,000 dollars you can order 1000 high quality models from 3d teams services.

 

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Amen Brother !!

Originally posted by darker70

 

With the advent of Kickstarter there is a complete circle regarding innovation in Mo's,many potential subscribers and a seemingly older and wiser player base seems to have gone past theme park fluff and want something more solid and with some lasting foundation,or as in GW2 a basic formula but throw something different into the mix to make it it's own entity.

 

SWTOR is an example if released 5 years ago this would be huge,but as Bioware copy pasted the gendre,which for instance any good Korean dev has done the novelty wears off and the people want something different how else can you explain the mega IP that is Star Wars being such a mega flop ?

 

So we have The Repopulation,Pathfinder,Embers of Cerus,Origins of Malu,and even the themepark kings the Koreans are going sandbox with Archeage,i challenge anybody to come up with that amount of innovation in the last five years as we have had Themepark Clone after clone and more clones with the F2P factor,but the people have spoken with cash and a desire for the market to change which it seems to be doing after a very long stagnation.

 

So will this herald a new golden age as many projects are now on their way with funds from the people and some are possibly on the the drawing board after potential devs see that their dreams and visions can become a reality ,and a future business for themselves as many had hoped they could steer their project themselves and not have someone pulling at the wheel and veering them on another path which as seen lately is not always the right one to take.

 

It's interesting that you made this post considering that I was just thinking about what a revolutionary Kickstarter is to us gamers worldwide who have basically become numb to the same grind with a different paintjob.  It provides capital to an otherwise restricted market, similar to the way Peer to peer lending provides liquidity and ROI to both parties intrinsically involved.  There's inherent risk involved, as with all investments - products fail as you've illustrated... but if a game becomes a long lasting success, it exceeds just the monetary gain, but it gives the gamers something they want knowing they actually had some participation in its creation.  I truly wonder what executives mega-publishers/developers are thinking... 

It gives me goosebumps to think that there's going to be an actual perceived "Alpha" within the gaming industry not dictated by paid off reviewers and websites to drive hype.

Great post.

sounds like an aweful lot like viral marketing, and nothing much to show for yet.

Originally posted by miagisan

sounds like an aweful lot like viral marketing, and nothing much to show for yet.

If u mean Repop does the small issue of  Alpha testing mid June count for much then,if not Repop apologies 

Originally posted by sagil

Don't be rude guys, you are just unveiling yourselves as the greedy corporate owners that are mad about losing money in the future.

Then let me ask you guys this... How come... Big game developers (and Movie devs) put themselves on Kickstarters? You guys have something twirled around your finger. And that is that you believe cashcows is the solution to everything. 

EA spent 200 million on an AAA game which to many is a B game. You need to play smart with money and these kickstart campaigners are working their ass of to create new stuff to the public.

You must realise that Kickstarters projects are some peoples dreams, if there ever would be a fraud, the public would get their money back and the person in question would have a lot to give back until he passes away. If can't pay all debt until he dies, his children would have to pay back and so on.

With 200,000 dollars you can order 1000 high quality models from 3d teams services.

 

 It would help to have some sort of context when you say Big game developrs and movie devs.

What are they looking for money for?  Who are they?

And we have to keep in mind that being a big game or movie dev, especially a movie developer, doesn't actually mean you have the money to do the project you want.  All those produced by credits you see scrolling at the beginning and end of a movie are there because those are the people primarilly responsible for providing the money in some way to get the movie made.

Even a Big name game developer has to secure the funding to make a game. 

2 million dollars may be well enough for a couple of guys to develop an MMO, but I don't see that MMO going very far when you've got indie developers who have managed to secure 10x that much money and had to release their game well before it was ready.  I don't see it as not being able to get the money to make an MMO, it's being able to keep it in development as long as it needs to be; which a lot of indie studios seem to have a problem doing.

SV had to release Mortal online because they had to start collecting subs or they had to scrap the project.  After 2 years where has it gotten them?  SV had well over 2 million dollars to work with.

There are so many MMO's out now, and a good chunk of them F2P.  If you needed to get your money from kickstarter just do develop the game, and can't sustain development long enough to get it release ready, I just don't see it having any impact.  There are lots of indie games that are running, and got up and running on very little money, it doesn't mean they had an impact or are even very good.

Kickstarter has it's place, and it's going to help a lot of people realize their dreams, but I don't see it having the kind of impact the OP expecting.

Sure seems like it, and I have to say after really looking into some of the projects getting funded on there really considering trying to kick start an idea I've had for years for an upscale combination organic aquafarm / fine dining establishment.

Much like planet earth at epcot, I would have the fish farms as glass columns floor to ceiling throughout the dining room, with the working hydrofarm above the restaurant.

Would grow as much of our use as we could, 3 or 4 varieties of fish, fresh water prawns and mussles, crawfish, and all the organic produce we could grow.

I truly believe as our population continues to grow, aquafarming is going to become a rule rather than an exception and a self sustaining restaurant would be an example for others to follow.

Originally posted by Uhwop

Kickstarter has it's place, and it's going to help a lot of people realize their dreams, but I don't see it having the kind of impact the OP expecting.

The OP was merely trying to get more money for Repopulation with this post.  The genre is cleary ready to change without kickstarter, just look at the slate of games on the horizon.  Guild Wars 2 will be the first game to try to evolve the model, its certainly not just a 'WoW clone with xxx feature', because theres just too much different (even if it is somewhat familiar, its basically doing to WoW what Vanilla WoW did to EQ which was a pretty drastic change).  Then there is The Secret World.  How about major studios making MMOFPS (Planetside 2, Defiance) and an MMORTS (Rise of Nations).  And of course Archeage.

No, kickstarter hasnt stopped MMO stagnation.  I don't even think SWTOR (and Rift)'s poor retention stopped it.  Change has been in the works for a few years now, and its almost here.

But I think (hope) the OP knew that already.

As Uhwop says, Kickstarter has its place.  But not for MMORPGs.  There is just too much that goes into making them.

I did want to chime on on MMOs and budget size. Because most MMOs cost millions of dollars, and some go much, much further than that, I think there are some misconceptions.

Licensing generally eats up a reasonable size of your initial budget. Up until a couple of years ago you were looking at $300-750,000 for your engine, then all the little extras adding up, $10k for Speedtree, etc. Things changed significantly in that regard in recent years. You have MMO specific engines like Hero Engine and Big World which are now available for a low up front cost (or free in the case of Hero's most recent license agreement) while owing backend royalties. Unreal Engine, CryEngine and Unity are not MMO specific, but has similar license deals now. This simply was not an option previously. This really forced developers to get some backing before doing anything.

Budgets then inflate based on office space and the number of employees. Typically the game developers get some funding from a publisher (an advance that must be paid back later, forfeiture of creative control, deadlines, in exchange for an up front investment) or from a venture capitolist. They then hire on each of their employees, rent an office, etc. If you take a game with a 600 man staff (ala TOR) and factor in a $4000 a month salary on average, your talking about $2.4 million a month or nearly $29 million a year, on salary alone.

Most MMOs don't have anywhere near that team size though. And many indie MMOs forego any salary until after a game launches. Programming wise if you develop generated or player created content systems, you won't need as many programmers or content people. What you will need though is an art team. And that's where things can get really expensive for an indie MMO. Generally they have some artists working in their spare time or outsource to affordable contractors (often in Asia). That's where Kickstarter can really be beneficial to these smaller games. Having some extra money during development can significantly boost their production quality, and we all know that a good launch makes a world of difference for an MMO. MMOs that launch well have a good shot of a long and prosperous life span. Those that start poorly, rarely ever make a strong recovery. I think that's where we'll see the biggest gains for indie MMOs through Kickstarter. They'll have a little extra budget that they can spend bringing in people to boost up the polish aspects where they often are most lacking as compared to larger studios.

I do think that Kickstarter will bring more innovation to the MMO scene, as indies are more likely to try radically different ideas than a large publisher would be. I'm sure we'll see some games crash and burn along the way. And we may not see mainstream acceptance for Kickstarter until it produces a great title. I don't see how it's a bad thing though in any way. If people don't feel safe spending money in it, or don't see the reason for it, simply don't use it.

correct is, that we see some games at the horizon, which try to avoid the high-linearity of the wow-type theme-park and on the other side avoid the pvp-ffa-everywhere of the indie sandboxes. this happens currently with and without kickstarter. this is a step into the right direction. even if, these 2 design paradigms are not the only fault of the current-state MMO.

kickstarter may help smaller companies to get the money for a prototype, in order to attract bigger investors interest. but i doubt, you can fund a full MMO with kickstarter only.

however, even an unfnished indie-game like EVE in 2003 will just survive and get a chance to grow, if the core gamemechanic is great. as every game, even with a 200 million budget, can just get sustained suport by gamers, if the gamemechanic is great. i can tolerate bugs and missing features for a while. if the game is at least playable and the gamemechanic is stunning, they will get my money. and then i will watch, if they really improve and keep their promises.

exacty this happend to me in the last weeks with the new games Tera, TSW and GW2. i could say after a few hours, that Teras gameplay is not for me even if the graphics is stunning and the combat system is not bad. i am still curious about TSW, but interested enough to not cancel pre-order, and i can say after 2 betas of GW2, that this game is at least worth to get a chance. even if i highly doubt, that this strange design is able to attract me for years.

so kickstarter will just have a small impact on the industry. we will see a lot of vaporware and wasted money with kickstarter. we will also see some kickstarter games with crappy gameplay like most of todays indie sandboxes and the million dollar theme-parks. and perhaps we will get another good game, which is worth to get my support. at least one, would be great, because today there is none except good old EVE and some even older classic MMOs.

Im really excited for repop but thats about it...repop is the only kickstarter mmo where the developers are releasing progress videos...i have no i dea how pathfinder got 300k...with no graphics..smhhh

Originally posted by trillgod

Im really excited for repop but thats about it...repop is the only kickstarter mmo where the developers are releasing progress videos...i have no i dea how pathfinder got 300k...with no graphics..smhhh

well, pathfinder got some pretty detailed devblogs about several very innovative gamemechanics. thats worth more, than graphics. now they got the money for prototyping and we will see some graphics and other stuff soon.

Originally posted by JC-Smith

I did want to chime on on MMOs and budget size. Because most MMOs cost millions of dollars, and some go much, much further than that, I think there are some misconceptions.

Licensing generally eats up a reasonable size of your initial budget. Up until a couple of years ago you were looking at $300-750,000 for your engine, then all the little extras adding up, $10k for Speedtree, etc. Things changed significantly in that regard in recent years. You have MMO specific engines like Hero Engine and Big World which are now available for a low up front cost (or free in the case of Hero's most recent license agreement) while owing backend royalties. Unreal Engine, CryEngine and Unity are not MMO specific, but has similar license deals now. This simply was not an option previously. This really forced developers to get some backing before doing anything.

Budgets then inflate based on office space and the number of employees. Typically the game developers get some funding from a publisher (an advance that must be paid back later, forfeiture of creative control, deadlines, in exchange for an up front investment) or from a venture capitolist. They then hire on each of their employees, rent an office, etc. If you take a game with a 600 man staff (ala TOR) and factor in a $4000 a month salary on average, your talking about $2.4 million a month or nearly $29 million a year, on salary alone.

Most MMOs don't have anywhere near that team size though. And many indie MMOs forego any salary until after a game launches. Programming wise if you develop generated or player created content systems, you won't need as many programmers or content people. What you will need though is an art team. And that's where things can get really expensive for an indie MMO. Generally they have some artists working in their spare time or outsource to affordable contractors (often in Asia). That's where Kickstarter can really be beneficial to these smaller games. Having some extra money during development can significantly boost their production quality, and we all know that a good launch makes a world of difference for an MMO. MMOs that launch well have a good shot of a long and prosperous life span. Those that start poorly, rarely ever make a strong recovery. I think that's where we'll see the biggest gains for indie MMOs through Kickstarter. They'll have a little extra budget that they can spend bringing in people to boost up the polish aspects where they often are most lacking as compared to larger studios.

I do think that Kickstarter will bring more innovation to the MMO scene, as indies are more likely to try radically different ideas than a large publisher would be. I'm sure we'll see some games crash and burn along the way. And we may not see mainstream acceptance for Kickstarter until it produces a great title. I don't see how it's a bad thing though in any way. If people don't feel safe spending money in it, or don't see the reason for it, simply don't use it.

Well first off, I believe you are one of the Devs working on the Repopulation, so it is funny to hear your claim that making player creatd content systems actually requires less of a team. If you ever listened to the general MMO sandbox fan around here, they would claim a sandbox costs more to make.

Second off....it is a bit shifty IMO to be propping up the system you aim to use(Kickstarter), and not at least identify yourself.

Third off....I will wish ya luck on your venture. I can respect someone actually trying to make something they want, vs being forced to endure constant whining cause the world doesnt work how you wish. I mean this with the utmost sincerity.