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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Wake up. MMOs are illusions.

17 posts found
  sagil

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 282

 
OP  6/11/12 7:40:55 PM#1

From my experience and research... MMOs are not what people want, really. PvPers want competitive games. PvEers are puzzle collectors and achievers, playing what is a competitive game only if you have enough time, beat the PvE (go to the last PvE puzzle to recieve your big bang sword). Arena in MMOs can just be one game without the puzzles. Just pure competitive game.

So why are there still MMOs? Anyone got an answer to that? Because I am really bored with MMOs right now and I think I'm going back to playing single player games and  competitive matches.

And free to play MMOs, thats just to show off whos rich and don't care about spending money on a cash shop to recieve benefits or cosmetics.

Wake up people. MMOs need not be like this. Sandbox mmos at it's current state is a failure. Just admit it, or I think you are living in la la land. Sandbox mmo needs to be even MORE social than themepark ones. We need to be able to build towns in a 500 man effort. We need to get sick, help sickness, hidden discoveries. And sandbox is not fast... it needs to be peeled carefully. Or you just made it a themepark game again with content patches that is in DEV control and not Player control.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3463

6/11/12 7:48:48 PM#2

Out of that entire post there was only one question so I'll answer that.

So why are there still MMOs?

MMOs exists cause people pay for them. Not that difficult to understand, if enough people want it and are willing to pay for it, someone will make it.

If you are bored with MMOs, there are plenty of non-MMO games out there. :)

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/11/12 7:54:53 PM#3

There are quite a few good sandboxes out there... not my problem that some people just won't play them until they have all the features of game X and Y.

< Been playing Wurm Online for years.

Oh, and as for how things should be a "500 man effort", it's never been the case, and I don't see why anyone should have that expectation in the first place. The more people 'required' for something, the more trivial the individual input per-player. Gates of Ahn' Qiraj much?

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  sagil

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 282

 
OP  6/11/12 8:05:57 PM#4
Originally posted by jpnz

Out of that entire post there was only one question so I'll answer that.

So why are there still MMOs?

MMOs exists cause people pay for them. Not that difficult to understand, if enough people want it and are willing to pay for it, someone will make it.

If you are bored with MMOs, there are plenty of non-MMO games out there. :)

And this is where the illusion comes in. People think, "yay, a social game I can play". People are not aware of how equal this could be to facebook integration in games. Wanna show off? ------> Facebook share. Wanna talk and game with someone? ----> Social co-op gaming hubs.

...

Okay, maybe I am wrong. I agree that MMOs is a place where gamers get united, that is sort of like a facebook to them. That is what WoW has become. But I see nothing more of it than a play per month Facebook. There is nothing else you can't do in other games. Instances f.ex. are just a short Diablo demo and the Arenas are only gameable if you unlock the badass sword and spend time to gather PvP equipments. First PvE equipments (You must first solvur this puzzleru) then PvP equipments (Then you unlockrabu the PvP and then you can be... a league of legends player).

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/11/12 8:11:01 PM#5

What do you think of Minecraft?

  Dogmadude360

Novice Member

Joined: 2/04/08
Posts: 18

6/11/12 8:19:22 PM#6

OP, I don't say this a lot. I also don't post a lot. But this thread reaks of it, so I must. Just stop trying to be deep and insightful. If a fictional world where people play together isn't an obvious illusion (because that's kind of the point) to you, maybe you should check yourself, not other people. And as for being like a facebook game, I don't see a lot of Sandboxes with achievement elements, I see a lot of themeparks. I just don't think you actually understand sandboxes, even if you have played them. In general, the point of this thread is pretty much null and void. I see a lot of just plain disappointing posts on here and never say a word, but you sir have won my attention in that you made an entirely presumptuous and silly post.

  darker70

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/08
Posts: 819

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
Groucho Marx

6/11/12 8:23:44 PM#7

Well OP i'll wager that you can guess the Project i'm stakeing my sandbox life on but with Kickstarter Mo's with true vision are now becoming more of a reality than say a few years ago so what u ask for is now being provided.

As then they were seen as a development pariah as the suits would not give the funding, or as proved with SWG-pre CU they thought that following the trend was a better course of action, even when that legendary mass exodus of income proved otherwise as many who quit still see SWG as their social gameing pinnacle and would jump straight back if given the chance.

  sagil

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 282

 
OP  6/11/12 9:40:59 PM#8
Originally posted by darker70

Well OP i'll wager that you can guess the Project i'm stakeing my sandbox life on but with Kickstarter Mo's with true vision are now becoming more of a reality than say a few years ago so what u ask for is now being provided.

As then they were seen as a development pariah as the suits would not give the funding, or as proved with SWG-pre CU they thought that following the trend was a better course of action, even when that legendary mass exodus of income proved otherwise as many who quit still see SWG as their social gameing pinnacle and would jump straight back if given the chance.

 

If you research a little of what is going on you will know that themepark games will go down in the curve map. Indies are developing incredible single player games (some with facebook share and leaderboards), finally using those thought out 2d engines (and they are solo). I actually played Super Meat Boy and I don't know when I felt so happy to be playing a game. There is no evolution in mmorpgs atm. It's just take from past developer and do that. And there is also Kickstarter, providing superior creativity that arge companies wish they could do.

Why don't you see these big corporates as baddies? I finally do, they are just after the money. They are money makers for christs sake.

Even solo indie devs make better games than them.

We need to stop thinking; social mmo game --> omg lets have a bbq now im so happy. We need to think; I want to play this game, it has a nice story, it looks good, seems fun... okay, I play it alone. Then; Now I'm tired, I go to a hub and play with them.

Make room for new evolution in mmos. Don't buy into the hype crap.

MMOs were not built for themepark. They are not what they should be atm.

  darker70

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/08
Posts: 819

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
Groucho Marx

6/11/12 9:54:03 PM#9


Originally posted by sagil

Originally posted by darker70 Well OP i'll wager that you can guess the Project i'm stakeing my sandbox life on but with Kickstarter Mo's with true vision are now becoming more of a reality than say a few years ago so what u ask for is now being provided. As then they were seen as a development pariah as the suits would not give the funding, or as proved with SWG-pre CU they thought that following the trend was a better course of action, even when that legendary mass exodus of income proved otherwise as many who quit still see SWG as their social gameing pinnacle and would jump straight back if given the chance.
 

If you research a little of what is going on you will know that themepark games will go down in the curve map. Indies are developing incredible single player games (some with facebook share and leaderboards), finally using those thought out 2d engines (and they are solo). I actually played Super Meat Boy and I don't know when I felt so happy to be playing a game. There is no evolution in mmorpgs atm. It's just take from past developer and do that. And there is also Kickstarter, providing superior creativity that arge companies wish they could do.

Why don't you see these big corporates as baddies? I finally do, they are just after the money. They are money makers for christs sake.

Even solo indie devs make better games than them.

We need to stop thinking; social mmo game --> omg lets have a bbq now im so happy. We need to think; I want to play this game, it has a nice story, it looks good, seems fun... okay, I play it alone. Then; Now I'm tired, I go to a hub and play with them.

Make room for new evolution in mmos. Don't buy into the hype crap.

MMOs were not built for themepark. They are not what they should be atm.


"Why don't you see these big corporates as baddies? I finally do, they are just after the money. They are money makers for christs sake"

Thanks Sagil great reply,not sure if u are inferring i don't see them as baddies or the general public, as i do that was the whole point after all Repop has 2 main devs that are co-owners,so not exactly huge corporation like EA.

  User Deleted
6/11/12 11:53:19 PM#10

Hardcore pvpers dont want a mmorpg...that want a MMO but certainly not an RPG.  RPG's breed class imbalance, since its about creating balance through grouping.

RPG's clog the path to endgame with quests and progression.

RPG's offer (use to) options and choices that may prevent the pvper from being the best at endgame.

RPG's require the pvper to aquire gear at endgame to compete, making it unfair.

Theres a whole boatload of gamers stuck in mmoRPGs who hate RPG's and you see them complaining every day on whatever games forum they play on and on this site.

Games have bent over backwards to remove complexity, choice, freedom, and difficulty in progression to make these guys feel at home...creating crappy RPG's and crappy mmoPVP or whatever...so both are kind of unhappy.

But since the mechanics are addicting both continue to play games that try to appeal to both and make none satisfied

 

Once about 50% of the mmorpg community realizes they dont want an RPG and stop playing MMORPG;s we can all go back to playing our buggy and poorly preforming, complicated and difficult RPG's online with other people, as it was intended.

Look i like pvp in my RPG like anyone else...its just its not the #1 concern and the basis of every decision i make in game...and i still remember the old RPG's that had a "RUN" button for when i encounter an enemy i cant beat ..rather than feeling i should have a fair fight with that rogue eventhough im a mage ect

 

Also i get the bigges laugh when i see pvpers proclaim that pvp should be based on skill alone....what skill we talking about?  Its supposed to be the smartest/guy who uses the rist skills for the situation/ tactics.....skills makes me thing a FPS game where i have to keep my crosshairs on the rapidly zigzagging enemy while bunny hopping and darting all over to get that head shot...something i never want to deal with in a mmoRPG.

  User Deleted
6/11/12 11:58:07 PM#11

The majority of mmos fail because devs feel their games should act like casino slot machines. Most devs do not have a desire for gaming, they have a desire for money instead. 

  Eladi

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/06
Posts: 1047

6/12/12 12:03:26 AM#12

who cares .. mmo's are here cause we want them to be, anyone who can only link "why" to thier own mind and not see beyond should just go watch thier favorite sport or someting and stop bothering themself and others. ofcourse..they wont since they cant see why in thier own mind or am I the blind one.. but if im blind but think im not are they blind to my mind? ...I hate this stuff....(but love to hate it... )

  MMOExposed

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 5895

6/12/12 8:45:25 PM#13
Originally posted by sagil

From my experience and research... MMOs are not what people want, really. PvPers want competitive games. PvEers are puzzle collectors and achievers, playing what is a competitive game only if you have enough time, beat the PvE (go to the last PvE puzzle to recieve your big bang sword). Arena in MMOs can just be one game without the puzzles. Just pure competitive game.

So why are there still MMOs? Anyone got an answer to that? Because I am really bored with MMOs right now and I think I'm going back to playing single player games and  competitive matches.

And free to play MMOs, thats just to show off whos rich and don't care about spending money on a cash shop to recieve benefits or cosmetics.

Wake up people. MMOs need not be like this. Sandbox mmos at it's current state is a failure. Just admit it, or I think you are living in la la land. Sandbox mmo needs to be even MORE social than themepark ones. We need to be able to build towns in a 500 man effort. We need to get sick, help sickness, hidden discoveries. And sandbox is not fast... it needs to be peeled carefully. Or you just made it a themepark game again with content patches that is in DEV control and not Player control.

Hey my friend, thats all in your head.

 

this is what I been trying to point out to people on this forum that been screaming out DOOMMO when it comes to this genre.

 

The genre is not bad, and its not dying. All of that is in our heads, because we have evolved a new mindset and vision, of what is new and unique of quality to us now days.

 

You can better vision my logic here with this practice exercise:

Step 1) think of ANY SHITTY(IYO) Post WoW Themepark MMO. (note I mean MMO, not including the new aged meaning of MMO which includes CORPGs and stuff like that)

Step 2) Now envision what your view of that MMO would have been if it released before your favorite PreWoW/VanillaWoW MMO experience , or launched at the same time period. (in its current form)

Step 3) now ask yourself. Would this SHITTY (IYO) MMO be so bad and down right shitty to you when MMO experience was new and fresh to you?


My example.

RIFT vs Vanilla WoW. Rift is called a WoW Clone, which is usually a negative term for a MMO themepark in design with similar themepark design but doesn't reach WoW's success.

But if both games had released at the same time in 2004, which game would be the most successful right now?

took me a while to realize that its not MMOs that suck, its my mind's view of the "Been There Done That" syndrome kicking in.

Call of Duty games are starting to go through this. Many people said MW3 was bad. But in reality it was much better than past MW2, but since the "Been There Done That" syndrome kicked in for many consumers, they will then overlook those improvements, and only see the shell of the similarities.

this is why People now days only see post WoW Themepark MMOs as WoW clones, even though they are as unique to WoW as Pre WoW themepark MMO were to WoW.


think about it....

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11834

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

6/12/12 9:42:43 PM#14
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by sagil

From my experience and research... MMOs are not what people want, really. PvPers want competitive games. PvEers are puzzle collectors and achievers, playing what is a competitive game only if you have enough time, beat the PvE (go to the last PvE puzzle to recieve your big bang sword). Arena in MMOs can just be one game without the puzzles. Just pure competitive game.

So why are there still MMOs? Anyone got an answer to that? Because I am really bored with MMOs right now and I think I'm going back to playing single player games and  competitive matches.

And free to play MMOs, thats just to show off whos rich and don't care about spending money on a cash shop to recieve benefits or cosmetics.

Wake up people. MMOs need not be like this. Sandbox mmos at it's current state is a failure. Just admit it, or I think you are living in la la land. Sandbox mmo needs to be even MORE social than themepark ones. We need to be able to build towns in a 500 man effort. We need to get sick, help sickness, hidden discoveries. And sandbox is not fast... it needs to be peeled carefully. Or you just made it a themepark game again with content patches that is in DEV control and not Player control.

Hey my friend, thats all in your head.

 

this is what I been trying to point out to people on this forum that been screaming out DOOMMO when it comes to this genre.

 

The genre is not bad, and its not dying. All of that is in our heads, because we have evolved a new mindset and vision, of what is new and unique of quality to us now days.

 

You can better vision my logic here with this practice exercise:

Step 1) think of ANY SHITTY(IYO) Post WoW Themepark MMO. (note I mean MMO, not including the new aged meaning of MMO which includes CORPGs and stuff like that)

Step 2) Now envision what your view of that MMO would have been if it released before your favorite PreWoW/VanillaWoW MMO experience , or launched at the same time period. (in its current form)

Step 3) now ask yourself. Would this SHITTY (IYO) MMO be so bad and down right shitty to you when MMO experience was new and fresh to you?


My example.

RIFT vs Vanilla WoW. Rift is called a WoW Clone, which is usually a negative term for a MMO themepark in design with similar themepark design but doesn't reach WoW's success.

But if both games had released at the same time in 2004, which game would be the most successful right now?

took me a while to realize that its not MMOs that suck, its my mind's view of the "Been There Done That" syndrome kicking in.

Call of Duty games are starting to go through this. Many people said MW3 was bad. But in reality it was much better than past MW2, but since the "Been There Done That" syndrome kicked in for many consumers, they will then overlook those improvements, and only see the shell of the similarities.

this is why People now days only see post WoW Themepark MMOs as WoW clones, even though they are as unique to WoW as Pre WoW themepark MMO were to WoW.


think about it....

Holy crap, dude, that was a really great post. 

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3719

6/12/12 11:26:33 PM#15
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Also i get the bigges laugh when i see pvpers proclaim that pvp should be based on skill alone....what skill we talking about?  Its supposed to be the smartest/guy who uses the rist skills for the situation/ tactics.....skills makes me thing a FPS game where i have to keep my crosshairs on the rapidly zigzagging enemy while bunny hopping and darting all over to get that head shot...something i never want to deal with in a mmoRPG.

When I think of skill, I think of things like chess.

Where no matter how long you play chess, you beat people because you're better than them, not because you leveled up and start with 6 queens.

Skill doesn't mean twitch reflexes, though that is =a= skill.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

6/12/12 11:34:26 PM#16
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Also i get the bigges laugh when i see pvpers proclaim that pvp should be based on skill alone....what skill we talking about?  Its supposed to be the smartest/guy who uses the rist skills for the situation/ tactics.....skills makes me thing a FPS game where i have to keep my crosshairs on the rapidly zigzagging enemy while bunny hopping and darting all over to get that head shot...something i never want to deal with in a mmoRPG.

When I think of skill, I think of things like chess.

Where no matter how long you play chess, you beat people because you're better than them, not because you leveled up and start with 6 queens.

Skill doesn't mean twitch reflexes, though that is =a= skill.

 

Not really true. If that was completely true, how can two players play multiple games of chess against each other and end up with different results? Just because you beat them once, it doesn't necessarely mean that you are better than them.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

6/12/12 11:38:59 PM#17
Originally posted by MMOExposed
Originally posted by sagil

From my experience and research... MMOs are not what people want, really. PvPers want competitive games. PvEers are puzzle collectors and achievers, playing what is a competitive game only if you have enough time, beat the PvE (go to the last PvE puzzle to recieve your big bang sword). Arena in MMOs can just be one game without the puzzles. Just pure competitive game.

So why are there still MMOs? Anyone got an answer to that? Because I am really bored with MMOs right now and I think I'm going back to playing single player games and  competitive matches.

And free to play MMOs, thats just to show off whos rich and don't care about spending money on a cash shop to recieve benefits or cosmetics.

Wake up people. MMOs need not be like this. Sandbox mmos at it's current state is a failure. Just admit it, or I think you are living in la la land. Sandbox mmo needs to be even MORE social than themepark ones. We need to be able to build towns in a 500 man effort. We need to get sick, help sickness, hidden discoveries. And sandbox is not fast... it needs to be peeled carefully. Or you just made it a themepark game again with content patches that is in DEV control and not Player control.

Hey my friend, thats all in your head.

 

this is what I been trying to point out to people on this forum that been screaming out DOOMMO when it comes to this genre.

 

The genre is not bad, and its not dying. All of that is in our heads, because we have evolved a new mindset and vision, of what is new and unique of quality to us now days.

 

You can better vision my logic here with this practice exercise:

Step 1) think of ANY SHITTY(IYO) Post WoW Themepark MMO. (note I mean MMO, not including the new aged meaning of MMO which includes CORPGs and stuff like that)

Step 2) Now envision what your view of that MMO would have been if it released before your favorite PreWoW/VanillaWoW MMO experience , or launched at the same time period. (in its current form)

Step 3) now ask yourself. Would this SHITTY (IYO) MMO be so bad and down right shitty to you when MMO experience was new and fresh to you?


My example.

RIFT vs Vanilla WoW. Rift is called a WoW Clone, which is usually a negative term for a MMO themepark in design with similar themepark design but doesn't reach WoW's success.

But if both games had released at the same time in 2004, which game would be the most successful right now?

took me a while to realize that its not MMOs that suck, its my mind's view of the "Been There Done That" syndrome kicking in.

Call of Duty games are starting to go through this. Many people said MW3 was bad. But in reality it was much better than past MW2, but since the "Been There Done That" syndrome kicked in for many consumers, they will then overlook those improvements, and only see the shell of the similarities.

this is why People now days only see post WoW Themepark MMOs as WoW clones, even though they are as unique to WoW as Pre WoW themepark MMO were to WoW.


think about it....

 

There is a difference between a genre sucking and a game sucking. One can argue that a stale genre is a bad genre. Furthermore, doing your own thing is more appriciated than excessive blatant copying, among certain people.