Originally posted by BigHatLogan

Originally posted by callmesneezy

put this simple.. fuck non-pvp mmos.

LOL true dat.  So many cowards out there afraid of a little challenge.  At least GW2 PVE is interesting and challenging.  Just think how much fun GW2 would be with open FFA PVP everywhere.  Nope, sorry, that would be too much fun.

spoken like a true ganker.. sure we are all cowards because we want to play a game against the in game MOBS not the in game a holes.

It's threads like these that are bound to backfire on the GW2 fanbase.

I beta played last weekend. So far I have seen traditional thema park MMO with "popup quest system" (when you walk to area, you will  automatically get quest to area). They say that doing quest will change world - so far I haven't saw much change - only some cases when there isn't enough players mobs will kill all NPCs in town and you must revive them when come to town. World is not really sandbox and everything is prescripted - there isn't player created content - players actions just shows what content is played next. 

What makes GW2's popup quests system better from traditional MMO quest system (some NPC is standing still and giving static quests for single players)  is that popup quests are given automatically everyone area. This allows players really co-operate with each other - instead of trying to kill steal quest mobs or items. System is very similar from RIFT's events where group of players in zone must co-operate with each other for common goal. Difference is that there is small change for failure which leads to followup states and quests. I bet that all future MMOs are going to copy GW2's system to their game.

Another nice thing with GW2 is that there is no  holy trinity class system (healer-dps-tank). Game seems to be pretty nicely soloable - but still because of events there is also lot's of grouping with other players. Also character customization was pretty good (thought it seems like that you can't change any option (like hairstyle) after character creation).

Otherwise GW2 seems to be pretty traditional themepark MMO - that will bring something new to genre - but nothing really groundbreaking. It is NOT sandbox game - and never going  to be one (game mechanism are not going to allow that). It does NOT provide any superior crafting system. Game mechanism are basically same as in other themepark MMOs. And PvP is same old crappy fight system that was copy pasted from other MMOs (if you want to play good PvP try Battlefield 3).

I guess I will play month or two - then I am wondering why I preorderd this game...

(EDIT1: FIxed some spelling)

Hey guys, can you take the "non-PvP MMOs/FFA PvP MMOs' etc discusion to its own proper thread instead of derailing this one. That topic is kind of its own general thing.

Why should I be scared if guild wars is going to the sandbox direction? I love sandbox.

Originally posted by DarkPony

Originally posted by Domenicus

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by callmesneezy

[mod edit]

[mod edit]

the part of being sandbox, may be that people who do not like PvP can enjoy GW2 and peole who enjoy PvP can enjoy as well... In ohter words, you can do as you please (PvP or PvE), without being forced to face one or another. But I would not call it a sandbox because of that...

No. GW2 is going to stay themepark. There are no sandbox elements in it now and there are no plans according to what I've read for any in the future.

Scripted events where you "repair" a house is not a sandbox element, but is instead part of the definition of a themepark ride in a themepark MMORPG.

In WoW, I can put out fires on houses. I can repair damaged tanks. I can defend against an attacking army of centaurs. These are themepark, scripted events and have nothing at all to do with sandbox elements.

Originally posted by colddog04

No. GW2 is going to stay themepark. There are no sandbox elements in it now and there are no plans according to what I've read for any in the future.

 

Scripted events where you "repair" a house is not a sandbox element, but is instead part of the definition of a themepark ride in a themepark MMORPG.

 

In WoW, I can put out fires on houses. I can repair damaged tanks. I can defend against an attacking army of centaurs. These are themepark, scripted events and have nothing at all to do with sandbox elements.

Thats what I think.. However I can understand when people speaks about ´elements´ of sandbox on GW2... But its not a sandbox, at least on my definition...

Originally posted by Domenicus

*snip*

its my PERSONAL opinion, ok? 

*snap*

Dully noted. Mine is diametrically opposing yours but let's keep it at that.

Originally posted by dontadow

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by dontadow

This weekend, I did some very fun things that actually fit into the realm of the game.  I built houses, I repaired houses and I guarded terrotary from maruaders.  I gathered things and they applied to the community i was gathering too and it never took away from the actual struggle of the adventure.  I traveled around hte land, explored caves met friends and many times had adventures without an event or a heart quest to tell me. I also got GREAT XP for doing it.  Sometimes i did things that started other things.  I went into one cave and killed a veteran and it started a quest chain where the centaurs began raiding.  

These things all sound like the kinds of things that people have been wanting from sandboxes.  But, in a great concept, non-pvp.   

Guild Wars 2 is a very basic game right now.  I know, it's fantastic, but when you think about that. That this is only teh first layer, and you look at other games and how far they have come since their first layer, you can see where this game is going. 

IN a year or two, we are going to see some fantastic new ideas with traditional sandbox ideas to move it into a non-pvp age of MMORPG Community.  

But were you building/reparing "your house", did you defend "your" territory from others. You participated in the elements of a story and it really isn't what sandbox games are all about IMO.

Of course we'll never find any common ground/agreement on what constitutes a sandbox, but I'm not seeing GW2 in any other light other than theme park style MMO. (and that's not a bad thing, it's what they set out to create)

Perhaps there's some content on the horizon that might qualify, but the fact that ANET has gone out of their way to remove all non-consentual player conflict makes it impossible to really be a sandbox in any real definition of the term.

 

I think a very small portion of the population have a very small idea of "sandbox". Which means their are things to do and i can do them as i wish in a sandbox. Sandbox gets its name frome hte idea that you can go around and do things like in a sandbox.  It doesn't mean you can attack other players or initiate player conflict. Particuarlly in RPGs, which, by design have always been coopoerative games.  So, keeping with the integrity of RPGs, it does a great job of having building blocks that can one day be turned into sandbox elements.

You seem to really hate computer AI.  To me this is the only opponent i wish to play against in a game (unless i elect to play a subgame of balanced organized pvp combat). Else i pay developers to develop things for me, not to have 13 year old kids grief and assault me. I want challenged tactical encounters.  So, my experience defending my terroritory was far more organized and structured and fit in with the story of the game.  As opposed to the story being, some dude killed some other dude so his guild griefed another guild for the entire day ::OWNAGE::. 

As I've said before, when i think sandbox, i think darkclouds 2. When i say guild wars is basic, i don't mean it as a slight, i mean that, as amazing as it is, this is just level 1.  It's like driving a mercedes and realizing that you're only in the C-Class Model.  Imagine what the e-class will feel like.  

Also I said elements, and perhaps only the fun elements.  I see building blocks. I see they have programming in place to build things, repair things aind defend things.  I see they have programs in place to truly offer an AI that reacts to you, tactically and more strategically and most importantly, pitting you against the true foes of the world.  

Not at all, I enjoy pitting myself against the computer's AI, only trouble is, once I figure out the pattern there is pretty much no chance for me to lose.

Contrast that with human opponents struggling for control of resources/territory, and its a completely unpredicatable experience and I have both won and lost in big ways.

I'd say that you really seem to hate fighting against other players, as your perspective of it (and how they behave) is quite negative.   Sure, I've seen some of what you described, but I've also fought 400 against 400 battles against opponents that ended with utter destruction of one group or another and everyone congradulated each other for a good fight.

As we know, what makes a good sandbox is an extremely debatable topic, and I can honestly say I've really only experienced and enjoyed one game that I consider in that category.  (EVE). 

I haven't played GW2 yet, so perhaps after I do I'll be more understanding of your viewpoint, but for right now we're just going to have to disagree on what constitutes a sandbox style game.

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by dontadow

This weekend, I did some very fun things that actually fit into the realm of the game.  I built houses, I repaired houses and I guarded terrotary from maruaders.  I gathered things and they applied to the community i was gathering too and it never took away from the actual struggle of the adventure.  I traveled around hte land, explored caves met friends and many times had adventures without an event or a heart quest to tell me. I also got GREAT XP for doing it.  Sometimes i did things that started other things.  I went into one cave and killed a veteran and it started a quest chain where the centaurs began raiding.  

These things all sound like the kinds of things that people have been wanting from sandboxes.  But, in a great concept, non-pvp.   

Guild Wars 2 is a very basic game right now.  I know, it's fantastic, but when you think about that. That this is only teh first layer, and you look at other games and how far they have come since their first layer, you can see where this game is going. 

IN a year or two, we are going to see some fantastic new ideas with traditional sandbox ideas to move it into a non-pvp age of MMORPG Community.  

There's always someone that goes into a new mmo, plays for a few hours and then comes to this forum all hyped up explaining in detail what they did in there adventures that day.

You are all excited because Guild wars 2 is a NEW GAME. 

It never fails, all of the things you love right now will be in your post a month after release as the Games failure to take those features to their potential.

Stop getting so excited, all you're doing in GW2 is hoping from one hub event to another. This will get boring in two weeks and in a month or two you will be on this forum QQ about how crappy A-net is.

 

This is interesting, it makes me think you are miserable and thus by default in your mind everyone else has to be miserable as well...

Let them have their excitement, it's always good to feel excited about a game. Why bother even posting this?

Originally posted by Resetgun

I beta played last weekend. So far I have seen traditional thema park MMO with "popup quest system" (when you walk to area, you will  automatically get quest to area). They say that doing quest will change world - so far I haven't saw much change - only some cases when there isn't enough players mobs will kill all NPCs in town and you must revive them when come to town. World is not really sandbox and everything is prescripted - there isn't player created content - players actions just shows what content is played next.

I agree the quests are basically as you described there is no permanent change going on. That is not to say the game is not entertaining.

What makes GW2's popup quests system better from traditional MMO quest system (some NPC is standing still and giving static quests for single players)  is that popup quests are given automatically everyone area. This allows players really co-operate with each other - instead of trying to kill steal quest mobs or items. System is very similar from RIFT's events where group of players in zone must co-operate with each other for common goal. Difference is that there is small change for failure which leads to followup states and quests. I bet that all future MMOs are going to copy GW2's system to their game.

Very possible, this is a superior mission system in comparison to more recent online games.

Another nice thing with GW2 is that there is no  holy trinity class system (healer-dps-tank). Game seems to be pretty nicely soloable - but still because of events there is also lot's of grouping with other players. Also character customization was pretty good (thought it seems like that you can't change any option (like hairstyle) after character creation).

Getting away from the class system is an interesting addition. I agree that it does indeed play the way you describe, but with an added encouragement to work together. The encouraging part is really well done, I enjoy the fact that anyone can revive, the skills are based on the weapon AND class that you chose... I did enjoy it, for a themepark ;).

Otherwise GW2 seems to be pretty traditional themepark MMO - that will bring something new to genre - but nothing really groundbreaking. It is NOT sandbox game - and never going  to be one (game mechanism are not going to allow that). It doesn't NOT provide any superior crafting system. Game mechanism are basically same as in other themepark MMOs. And PvP is same old crappy fight system that was copy pasted from other MMOs (if you want to play good PvP try Battlefield 3).

I agree that the game mechanics are not of the sandbox method... They simply cannot change the core of the game engine to accommodate a sandbox game, or rather they probably could but, unlikely, due to the amount of work it would take. Might as well make a new game. Most online games once released receive very little in the way of fixes and support, GW2 will be no different. Sure they'll add expansions etc, but it will be of the same variety of questing and adventuring as you see now.

I guess I will play month or two - then I am wondering why I preorderd this game...

Free-form does not a sandbox make.

I'm glad that you're getting to experience free-form questing, as it'll get more people familliar with that kind of gameplay.  However, a gameplay mechanic, no matter how simillar to sandbox gameplay, doesn't make it "like" a sandbox.

GW2 is grounded in themepark design, and every element is going to support that design.  It doesn't matter if it's like a "sandbox element". 

Hopefull GW2 will expand on the free-form gameplay to get more people used to that style of gaming, and then we may actually see more true sandboxes come out of that awareness. 

Originally posted by Uhwop

Free-form does not a sandbox make.

I'm glad that you're getting to experience free-form questing, as it'll get more people familliar with that kind of gameplay.  However, a gameplay mechanic, no matter how simillar to sandbox gameplay, doesn't make it "like" a sandbox.

GW2 is grounded in themepark design, and every element is going to support that design.  It doesn't matter if it's like a "sandbox element". 

 

Hopefull GW2 will expand on the free-form gameplay to get more people used to that style of gaming, and then we may actually see more true sandboxes come out of that awareness. 

Kind of like baby-steps before leaping to the good stuff lol ;)

I can see the fear is already started.

At no point have i said its a fullblown "sandbox". what i said is it has exciting elements of sandbox style play.  

The idea that something being scripted to react to you is "ineffecient" is a real knock against how sophisticated computer AIs are and are becoming.  The smartest chess opponent in the world is still a computer, and that was years ago, its sense gotten better, and game companeis have access to these AI techniques.  

People need to figure out the difference between triggered and scriptted. Scripted is something that happens at a certain interval. Triggered happens when variosu conditions are met. Most dESs are triggered. Either by conditions in the land, # of players or proximaty.  Many by the mere actions of players.  

A game world that thinks and reacts to you better than ahuman with infintive resources that humans do not have.  That's why I'd rather developrs make challenges. It's much easier to have 200 centaurs perform compelx and different actions in cohesion with one another than 20 guys half of them teenagers who just want to hit something. 

And, I'm pretty sure i've played this game a lot longer than a "few hours".  

Originally posted by Z3R01

Originally posted by dontadow

This weekend, I did some very fun things that actually fit into the realm of the game.  I built houses, I repaired houses and I guarded terrotary from maruaders.  I gathered things and they applied to the community i was gathering too and it never took away from the actual struggle of the adventure.  I traveled around hte land, explored caves met friends and many times had adventures without an event or a heart quest to tell me. I also got GREAT XP for doing it.  Sometimes i did things that started other things.  I went into one cave and killed a veteran and it started a quest chain where the centaurs began raiding.  

These things all sound like the kinds of things that people have been wanting from sandboxes.  But, in a great concept, non-pvp.   

Guild Wars 2 is a very basic game right now.  I know, it's fantastic, but when you think about that. That this is only teh first layer, and you look at other games and how far they have come since their first layer, you can see where this game is going. 

IN a year or two, we are going to see some fantastic new ideas with traditional sandbox ideas to move it into a non-pvp age of MMORPG Community.  

There's always someone that goes into a new mmo, plays for a few hours and then comes to this forum all hyped up explaining in detail what they did in there adventures that day.

You are all excited because Guild wars 2 is a NEW GAME. 

It never fails, all of the things you love right now will be in your post a month after release as the Games failure to take those features to their potential.

Stop getting so excited, all you're doing in GW2 is hoping from one hub event to another. This will get boring in two weeks and in a month or two you will be on this forum QQ about how crappy A-net is.

 

Hubs? What hubs? OH you mean like in Rift and WoW - sorry there is no hub in GW2. Obviously you haven't played it or you would know that.

As was said these forums really never cease in amusement.

Originally posted by dontadow

This weekend, I did some very fun things that actually fit into the realm of the game.  I built houses, I repaired houses and I guarded terrotary from maruaders.  I gathered things and they applied to the community i was gathering too and it never took away from the actual struggle of the adventure.  I traveled around hte land, explored caves met friends and many times had adventures without an event or a heart quest to tell me. I also got GREAT XP for doing it.  ... (more)...

Up until that point I thought you were speaking of Wurm Online on Epic Cluster. Your comment about "XP" killed that assumption.

GW2 was designed as themepark afaik, and from what I was told it is a good one. Be satisfied with that. Seriously, with the releases of poor or substandard themepark MMOs, it's great to see one launch that IS a good one.

You don't need to make any more of GW2 than that.

my goodness, out of all the ridiculous hype going around, NOW the rabid fanboys are claiming gw2 is a sandbox? Talk about bending definitions to meet your will.

Originally posted by Nevulus

my goodness, out of all the ridiculous hype going around, NOW the rabid fanboys are claiming gw2 is a sandbox? Talk about bending definitions to meet your will.

Why not,most of the so called "sandbox" games are bent definitions anyhow as they dont really give much tools or sand to build with but allow for ffa pvp and open loot, which in my mind is also bending the definition, unless the sandbox's you played in as a kid had more sand being kicked in faces than sandcastles being built. 

Dont get me wrong I am not calling GW2 a sandbox, or agreeing but if the definition can be bent to one extreme I dont see no need to call names if others bend it in the opposite direction.I play games I like, I dont care what people call them.

Originally posted by dontadow

I can see the fear is already started.

At no point have i said its a fullblown "sandbox". what i said is it has exciting elements of sandbox style play.  

The idea that something being scripted to react to you is "ineffecient" is a real knock against how sophisticated computer AIs are and are becoming.  The smartest chess opponent in the world is still a computer, and that was years ago, its sense gotten better, and game companeis have access to these AI techniques.  

People need to figure out the difference between triggered and scriptted. Scripted is something that happens at a certain interval. Triggered happens when variosu conditions are met. Most dESs are triggered. Either by conditions in the land, # of players or proximaty.  Many by the mere actions of players.  

A game world that thinks and reacts to you better than ahuman with infintive resources that humans do not have.  That's why I'd rather developrs make challenges. It's much easier to have 200 centaurs perform compelx and different actions in cohesion with one another than 20 guys half of them teenagers who just want to hit something. 

 

And, I'm pretty sure i've played this game a lot longer than a "few hours".  

As for scripted vs triggered they're more or less pea's of the same pod. A trigger is what sets a script in motion. The argument is really static vs Dynamic as dynamic is the opposite of static. A dynamic form of content wil always be scripted unless it is player created.