according to you anytime you change the game or content its no longer a sand box so what is a sand box?

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Originally posted by Deivos
And what the bloody hell is not sandbox about adding content? Player control and player freedom in a sandbox to create means you can never mix some mud or water into the box?

 

Fact is it's player control over the content of the game. The means they give you are not that different from what is provided in an MMO context, only at times it's able to be a much more powerful set of tools because balance is not a concern where there's only one.

 

Back again to it being an entirely semantic detail.

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Pour water into the sandbox and the sandbox becomes a mudbox. A mudbox is not a sandbox anymore, simple as that.

And yet without water you are building nothing but piles of sand. You wanna make anything, you need the tools to do it.

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Originally posted by nolic1
according to you anytime you change the game or content its no longer a sand box so what is a sand box?

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The question is, who changes the game and it's content. If it's the developer of the original game, then we're exchanging a sandbox for another sandbox only.

Originally posted by Yalexy

 

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Originally posted by Deivos
And what the bloody hell is not sandbox about adding content? Player control and player freedom in a sandbox to create means you can never mix some mud or water into the box?

 

 

Fact is it's player control over the content of the game. The means they give you are not that different from what is provided in an MMO context, only at times it's able to be a much more powerful set of tools because balance is not a concern where there's only one.

 

Back again to it being an entirely semantic detail.

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Pour water into the sandbox and the sandbox becomes a mudbox. A mudbox is not a sandbox anymore, simple as that.

So even if you use the tools given to make the game differant is like adding water to it is it not? Also even if you just use the tools give anytime you change the game in anyway from the norm wouldn't that make it no longer a sandbox. So in truth by your standing there is no true sandbox mmo or sp out there?

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Originally posted by Deivos
And yet without water you are building nothing but piles of sand. You wanna make anything, you need the tools to do it.

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The tools are provided within the sandbox by the original developer usually, so you can build something within the sandbox as a player.

Originally posted by Yalexy

 

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Originally posted by nolic1
according to you anytime you change the game or content its no longer a sand box so what is a sand box?

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The question is, who changes the game and it's content. If it's the developer of the original game, then we're exchanging a sandbox for another sandbox only.

If the dev gave you the tools to change it accoring to you it changes the game no longer making it a sandbox because the box has changed.

According to him not even Spore is a sandbox it seems.

EDIT:  Yalexy that is so far from the truth it's actively aggrivating. 

Like I just had to make the Spore example that exemplifies it. I already addressed how that comment you make in the differentiation from 'in game' makes no sense because even in game editors operate as separate functions.

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Originally posted by nolic1

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Originally posted by Yalexy

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Originally posted by nolic1 according to you anytime you change the game or content its no longer a sand box so what is a sand box? The question is, who changes the game and it's content. If it's the developer of the original game, then we're exchanging a sandbox for another sandbox only.

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If the dev gave you the tools to change it accoring to you it changes the game no longer making it a sandbox because the box has changed.

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If the dev only gives you tools to form and shape the allready available content, then no, the box hasn't changed.

Originally posted by Deivos
According to him not even Spore is a sandbox it seems.

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Spore is a sandbox, as you can't add anything to the allready available content, you're only provided with tools to form and shape the allready available content.

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It amuses me to see how people try to twist and turn things around just to proove their point.

It's really as simple as that: A sandbox is a game that provides the players with tools to freely play around with a fixed amount of content within the game.
As soon as players add content or are forced to follow a prescripted story it's not a sandbox anymore - period.

Actually there are tools both built into Spore's assets as well as provided as entirely separate tools that let you add content.

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Originally posted by Deivos
Actually there are tools both built into Spore's assets as well as provided as entirely separate tools that let you add content.

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The external tools in Spore are not actually adding new content to the game, but they're only external tools to make it easier to form and shape the allready available content. You're not adding any new material to the sand, to stay with the picture I've drawn previously.

Yeah see now you are just actively wrong again, and more so likely because you want to push your point home. People have made content packs at this point that can add new parts and variables, alter attribute tables, etc. It is very much so adding new content to the game.

It's a stubborn refusal of conceding an opinion that makes this any form of an argument at this point. Like I said a while ago if you can't acknowledge when a tool is a tool, I can't help you.

EDIT: Gonna go play a game or something, will see what you scribble out later.

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Originally posted by Deivos
Yeah see now you are just actively wrong again, and more so likely because you want to push your point home. People have made content packs at this point that can add new parts and variables, alter attribute tables, etc. It is very much so adding new content to the game.

 

It's a stubborn refusal of conceding an opinion that makes this any form of an argument at this point. Like I said a while ago if you can't acknowledge when a tool is a tool, I can't help you.

 

EDIT: Gonna go play a game or something, will se what you scribble out later.

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Adding new parts and variables, altering attributes etc with a tool provided by the developer is not magically adding some new content to the game. You only form and shape the content that was allready available before with these tools.

Like I said - and I can't draw this picture often enough: If you add any other materials to the sand in the sandbox, you don't have a sandbox anymore, but a box with a mixture of materials.

Was going to write out my own  thoughts but just stated your opinion on whats a true sandbox in my opinion is not a sandbox so in truth we all have our own ideas of a sandbox.

DEV PVE tools given to players to create content are a must.

DEV PVE content is welcome.

But the world MUST have consequences and the items in the world should be player crafted. Once you remove consequence and the player economy the sandbox shrinks.

Originally posted by theJexster

DEV PVE tools given to players to create content are a must.

DEV PVE content is welcome.

But the world MUST have consequences and the items in the world should be player crafted. Once you remove consequence and the player economy the sandbox shrinks.

Why? 

I mean, I understand if you think consequences and a strong player economy make for a good game, but why are these two things necessary for a game to be a sandbox?  Did UO become "less" of a sandbox when Trammel (PvP free world) was introduced?  

This is what I really don't get...these arbitrary "requirements" for sandbox.  Sandbox is a term that is meant to describe a certain kind of game...but what I have noticed is that several pro-sandbox posters will try to lump anything they like into the definition of sandbox, and then several anti-sandbox posters will try to lump anything they dislike into the definition of sandbox.

Why can't we all just keep it simple and use the wikipedia definition or something.  And then maybe we can all argue about the game features we actually care about instead of arguing for 20 pages only to realize that everyone just interprets the term sandbox differently.

In fact...I think that the mods should just put the definition for sandbox that is always to be used on this site in a sticky...I really don't care what it is.  Just something.  And then when someone starts with the "oh, it's not a sandbox if it doesn't have FFA PvP uncle Owens full looting each other," we can just point them to the definition and end it.

Honestly, I can't even say what's what anymore because there is a lot of diverse gameplay out there on the single player front. MMOs are not so lucky in terms of diversity. At this point, I just go with my gut. Sandbox/themepark is now more feeling than fact.

Originally posted by Deivos

Yeah see now you are just actively wrong again, and more so likely because you want to push your point home. People have made content packs at this point that can add new parts and variables, alter attribute tables, etc. It is very much so adding new content to the game.

 

It's a stubborn refusal of conceding an opinion that makes this any form of an argument at this point. Like I said a while ago if you can't acknowledge when a tool is a tool, I can't help you.

 

EDIT: Gonna go play a game or something, will see what you scribble out later.

Actually if players make tools to mod games, it doesnt alter what the game is. The infinity engine from bioware has been used to mod games such as Balders Gate, and Icewind Dale. It wasnt part of the actual game purchased.

A game like Lego Indiana Jones 2 came with Dev created mod tools, so to me that indicates more of a sandbox format, even though the premade content I would deem themepark.

I saw a troll try to psycho analyze me a page back in the thread, and to that I say whatever floats your boat. I enjoy my gaming, and I know other games will be made for me. I dont need to bitch in sandbox game forums cause no one will make the type of games I enjoy thank ye very much. Can you say the same?

What does irk me is seeing post after post about games like Skyrim being an indication we need more MMOs like SWG. They are nothing alike in gameplay....stating that they are both open world means squat in the MMO realm. Skyrim is PVE focused, and MMO sandboxes like SWG are Owen/PVP focused.

TES Online got it right....it will be a themepark, as that type of gameplay is what folks were experiencing with Oblivion & Skyrim. Dev directed PVE content, and a metric shit ton of it to boot.

When MMO sandboxes are about dev directed PVE content, and do away with forced FFA PVP/Owen dependance, then maybe someday you will get more games made for you as well.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by theJexster

DEV PVE tools given to players to create content are a must.

DEV PVE content is welcome.

But the world MUST have consequences and the items in the world should be player crafted. Once you remove consequence and the player economy the sandbox shrinks.

Why? 

I mean, I understand if you think consequences and a strong player economy make for a good game, but why are these two things necessary for a game to be a sandbox?  Did UO become "less" of a sandbox when Trammel (PvP free world) was introduced?  

This is what I really don't get...these arbitrary "requirements" for sandbox.  Sandbox is a term that is meant to describe a certain kind of game...but what I have noticed is that several pro-sandbox posters will try to lump anything they like into the definition of sandbox, and then several anti-sandbox posters will try to lump anything they dislike into the definition of sandbox.

Why can't we all just keep it simple and use the wikipedia definition or something.  And then maybe we can all argue about the game features we actually care about instead of arguing for 20 pages only to realize that everyone just interprets the term sandbox differently.

In fact...I think that the mods should just put the definition for sandbox that is always to be used on this site in a sticky...I really don't care what it is.  Just something.  And then when someone starts with the "oh, it's not a sandbox if it doesn't have FFA PvP uncle Owens full looting each other," we can just point them to the definition and end it.

Actually Cres the universal definition would be a good thing. I agree with ya.

I dont really care what terms are used, I am just tired of some folks holding up dev created PVE focus games as reasons to have Uncle Owen/FFA PVP games made. They dont cater to the same crowds. PVE rules the MMORPG sphere. Bonus if you can add a good PVP game in besides. That is something TOR failed at, and I would bet the majority of the 400k posted loss was due to it.

PVP has caught up some over the yrs, and someday it will probably overtake PVE as this generation replaces us older gamers. EQ servers were roughly 85% PVE, and I believe TOR was more along the line of 65% to 70% PVE. Making things more of a fair battle would bring more PVP folks into MMOs IMO, but that is for another thread.

Originally posted by Yalexy

 

Adding new parts and variables, altering attributes etc with a tool provided by the developer is not magically adding some new content to the game. You only form and shape the content that was allready available before with these tools.

Like I said - and I can't draw this picture often enough: If you add any other materials to the sand in the sandbox, you don't have a sandbox anymore, but a box with a mixture of materials.

You're just gonna keep shifting that definition until people give up aren't you.

And Moaky, things like the infinity engine is not what I was referring to. Though I'd say the ability for third party modification of a game does show some degree of malleability, though not necessarily being sandbox.

It's painfully apparently at this point that the interpretation of different kinds and degrees of player made and controlled content is being semantically nitpicked to try and draw a line where it goes from players getting to do things the devs let them do and players actually having some real sense of control and influence.

Apparently the moment players have any real control it's no longer a sandbox. I find that the most pointless and nonsensical distinction ever.