Originally posted by Yalexy

Player-created content otoh refers to content that is created within the game, while you play the game.

As long as you understand that is your personal definition and nothing more. 

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Originally posted by Deivos
Ok, so it's an entirely semantic detail that differentiates the two, I gotcha.

 

EDIT: That also assumes every person using mods is also making mods or doing things that dramatically influence the core game. Which is a bad assumption to make.

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No. The question is, if you can create the content within the game, not scripting something and implement it. It's not schemantics or something technical, it's the root of the question really.

Let's take a sandbox in the park, where there's nothing else in the box but the sand:
- player-created = you create a castle out of the sand with your hands
- developed content = you create a castle out of wood, water and whatever you found outside the box and place it into the sandbox

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Originally posted by Loktofeit

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Originally posted by Yalexy Player-created content otoh refers to content that is created within the game, while you play the game.

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As long as you understand that is your personal definition and nothing more. 

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You see this as an oppinion, I see this as a given. Just look at my example above with the sandbox in the park.

So because they have the capacity to change the game external to the game it is not counted as something that gives them freedom in the game.

I repeat my last comment.

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Originally posted by Deivos
So because they have the capacity to change the game external to the game it is not counted as something that gives them freedom in the game.

 

I repeat my last comment.

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Using mods to change the UI, browse the markets more easily, compare items or whatever is no content. It's only tools to change the frontend.

As soon as you develop content and implement it into the game tho, we're looking at a totally different beast, like I explained before.

And only a subsection of things that can be done via mods that you don't have to make. 

I now repeat my last two comments. :p

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Originally posted by Deivos
And only a subsection of things that can be done via mods that you don't have to make. 

 

I now repeat my last two comments. :p

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What's so hard about understanding the difference between tools and content?

The difficult part is the placement of the tools and the reality of the content.

EIDT: It's like I already said in a previous post. The in-game player created content people are touting? Take a look at the actual impact it makes. The inherent features and limitations that define them.

Even SWG is not without these limitations. Be it in crafting, town building, or elsewhere, the end stretch is there is only so much you can do with the options provided in game and there is minimal to no secondary tools that compensate for potential pitfalls.

Besides that, you can't get much more sandbox than the devs handing you the tools to rip the box itself apart.

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Originally posted by Deivos
The difficult part is the placement of the tools and the reality of the content.

EIDT: It's like I already said in a previous post. The in-game player created content people are touting? Take a look at the actual impact it makes. The inherent features and limitations that define them.

Even SWG is not without these limitations. Be it in crafting, town building, or elsewhere, the end stretch is there is only so much you can do with the options provided in game and there is minimal to no secondary tools that compensate for potential pitfalls.

Besides that, you can't get much more sandbox than the devs handing you the tools to rip the box itself apart.

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It's not that hard actually.

Mods that don't change the content are perfectly fine even within a sandbox, but as soon as you use mods that let you add, take away or change the content then we're talking about developing content.

And... as soon as you rip the box apart, you've destroyed the sandbox, as you've done away with the cruicial part there... the box.

See, it is a semantic detail. As soon as the distinction of something new is added you change the description.

And I even referenced mods that expose the content for use and modification in-game. That does not add new content, but lets the player dink with plenty more without the need of console commands, yet that was entirely discounted.

As for ripping the box apart, the implication is you're being given the capacity to do with the sand what you please, Put it in a bigger box, build a new box, etc. You are given the engine, the executable, and the assets, and have free reign to see the game adapt in many ways.

The moment you stop calling that player freedom or player control is the moment  the argument fails to make sense beyond matters of opinion.

EDIT: In other words, an entirely semantic detail.

Originally posted by Yalexy

 

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Originally posted by Deivos
And only a subsection of things that can be done via mods that you don't have to make. 

I now repeat my last two comments. :p

What's so hard about understanding the difference between tools and content?

I don't know, but you seem to have a bit of trouble with it, Yalexy. Tools to manipulate, manage and interact with the game world are a big part of sandbox content. You, however, have some arbitrary divider as to where those tools can exist. PotBS flags/sails are created out of game. Puzzle Pirates islands are made with an external editor. A good portion of the politics and propoganda in EVE happens on the forums. None of this contributes to or is part of the sandbox to you, despite them being the designed and intended tools for sandbox content. 

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Originally posted by Deivos
See, it is a semantic detail. As soon as the distinction of something new is added you change the description.

 

And I even referenced mods that expose the content for use and modification in-game. That does not add new content, but lets the player dink with plenty more without the need of console commands, yet that was entirely discounted.

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It's not semantics. It's common sense.

A sandbox is a box full of sand and tools, and as soon as you add something else then tools, the sandbox is not a sandbox anymore, but a mixture of materials.

Originally posted by Yalexy

 

It's not semantics. It's common sense.

A sandbox is a box full of sand and tools, and as soon as you add something else then sand or tools, the sandbox is not a sandbox anymore, but a mixture of materials.

I believe you just agreed with me.

EDIT: And yeah very much so what Lok said too.

City of Heroes, Everquest 2, Even Ryzoms's quest ant environment creation content is aspects divorced from core gameplay. Or APB and it's character/vehicle/music editors.

Pretty much all consequential examples (examples where content is created, not simply utilized) of sandbox content, even in MMOs, requires some form of editor or tool that does not take part as the mainstay in the game. You have to load it up or load into it, and then load back out into the game or port the asset over in the game.

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Originally posted by Loktofeit

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Originally posted by Yalexy  

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Originally posted by Deivos And only a subsection of things that can be done via mods that you don't have to make.  I now repeat my last two comments. :p

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What's so hard about understanding the difference between tools and content?

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I don't know, but you seem to have a bit of trouble with it, Yalexy. Tools to manipulate, manage and interact with the game world are a big part of sandbox content. You, however, have some arbitrary divider as to where those tools can exist. PotBS flags/sails are created out of game. Puzzle Pirates islands are made with an external editor. A good portion of the politics and propoganda in EVE happens on the forums. None of this contributes to or is part of the sandbox to you, despite them being the designed and intended tools for sandbox content. 

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Gameforums or tools provided by the developer do not create new content, they're just tools to form the available "sand" that is allready in the game.

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Originally posted by Deivos

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Originally posted by Yalexy   It's not semantics. It's common sense. A sandbox is a box full of sand and tools, and as soon as you add something else then tools, the sandbox is not a sandbox anymore, but a mixture of materials.

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I believe you just agreed with me.

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I don't think so.

Then you aren't calling tools, tools. I can't help you there.

Ok So what makes a game a sand box after reading 8 pages of mixed thoughts and blind stupied replys please someone explain a sandbox mmo to a single player sandbox cause according to most of you there is no true sandbox mmo on the market and never was.

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Originally posted by Deivos
Then you aren't calling tools, tools. I can't help you there.

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Tools are something to form and shape the available sand. As soon as you use tools that implement new material into the sandbox, we're talking of adding content that was not available from within the game before.

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Originally posted by nolic1
Ok So what makes a game a sand box after reading 8 pages of mixed thoughts and blind stupied replys please someone explain a sandbox mmo to a single player sandbox cause according to most of you there is no true sandbox mmo on the market and never was.

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A sandbox is a game, where you can freely choose of what to do with the given content and tools found within the game.

Simple as that.

And what the bloody hell is not sandbox about adding content? Player control and player freedom in a sandbox to create means you can never mix some mud or water into the box?

Fact is it's player control over the content of the game. The means they give you are not that different from what is provided in an MMO context, only at times it's able to be a much more powerful set of tools because balance is not a concern where there's only one.

Back again to it being an entirely semantic detail.