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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Pathfinder Online (Sandbox) has 48 hours left on Kickstarter

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127 posts found
  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1045

6/07/12 4:22:15 PM#61
Originally posted by BlackUhuru
@Nariusseldon

Backers are getting a 100 page, bonded, full color Thornkeep book with four dungeons levels created by some of the top RPG developers.

Even if the online game never comes to be its money we'll spent for the RPG community.

Whatcha got next?

Investing is certainly not much of a loss if you play tabletop pathfinder.  The idea of an Ed Greenwood dungeon does peek my interest (my wife actually works for his sister).  And you're going to pay 15 bucks for a PDF of something anyway. I could be convinced to invest if they brought Nick LOgue out of retirement to do a level.  Ed Mona writing a dungeon sounds nice too.  I think i just talked myself into a PDF. 

  Istavaan

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 1398

6/07/12 4:24:16 PM#62

kickstarter, what a way to scam daydreaming mmo players.

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3117

Veni, Vidi, Converti

6/07/12 4:34:21 PM#63
Originally posted by dontadow
Originally posted by MumboJumbo
Originally posted by maplestone

This post cannot be real...it just can't be...

He doesn't realize that they aren't actually promising a game, they are funding a pitch.  Essentially what they are promising is to create is a pencil-and-paper module with some added artwork that would then be pitched to investors (along with the list of doners as evidence of demand) to turn into an MMO.  Being able to show that you beat your goal several times over should play well in a pitch.

Personally, I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse.  If you want to actually make something new, I want to see a focus on the actual game engine - not lore, not even the graphics/physics part of it, but the core world mechanics and databases that are going to make this world different from other static world out there.  I would like to see a kickstarter project to succeed and I have a lot of respect for pathfinder as a pencil-and-paper game, but the more I examine this inkblot to understand what they actually have in mind, the more I see this particular game idea is a checklist of things I *don't* want to see in a new game: cash-shop driven buisness model, openly hostile to non-PvP players, static content.

They've already reached their goals, so this project has definitely got traction.  Perhaps they will succeed in building a better Darkfall.  But I can't say I get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling off of it.

I'm keen to see what the engine is like also, what middleware allows them to do and what limits it places also. I think they've got a good artist on board (check?) Wayne Renolds and looking at some samples of that work it is fine, but yes the engine/tech is really crucial.

That said, if you read the blogs the design to manage the game and number of persistent players seems like it could work eg the hex system. Also I disagree with the label of non-pvp players getting "shafted". It's bad implementation of other pvp systems in other mmorpgs that ruins those. GW are well aware of that problem. IN FACT,imo the opposite holds, and "other players as content" is the way to go, if it can be implemented successfully (half the battle will be player selection possibly I'm wondering?)

And pvp in principle should be the bigger, related brother to pve imo. :) What's the difference between a mob or a player fighting you, unless the player is a griefer? The potential goes both ways more positive or more negative. Let's hope the positive direction works out for this one.

Mobs make sense, other players attacking you for no reason is just chaos.  Open warefare isn't even so chaotic.  

This, as far as i'm concerned, is worth than elder scroll, as DND has little  pvp and sandbox elements and yet here we are making a pvp sandbox games of DND .  

In DND you get quests, you go on adventures with your buddies, you kill mobs you get loot you save some princes or kingdoms.  Myteries unfold, the larger plot comes to fruition.  

From the sound of it, the initial plan was to do this, but when that was nixed they decided to create a low budget somethiing or another.  

Mobs vary in difficult, have additional abilities and tactics and presented with an AI to achieve a speicfic goal, whether its gaurding something or attacking or protecting an area.  Advanced IEs in real MMOs have sophisticated tactics that can be challenging. 

 

Ultimately PvE content is more static than other players and other players more dynamic content than PvE mobs. So in PnP the GM generates the dynamic content, but in MMO that is translated into a world that is complex interaction of many players. The tricky part is for all those players to play their parts according to the game eg you would not like it if the GM suddenly says, "10 dragons suddenly come around the corner of the tavern and fireball (rolls 50 dice) - you die instantly!"

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1045

6/07/12 4:42:15 PM#64
Originally posted by MumboJumbo
Originally posted by dontadow
Originally posted by MumboJumbo
Originally posted by maplestone

This post cannot be real...it just can't be...

He doesn't realize that they aren't actually promising a game, they are funding a pitch.  Essentially what they are promising is to create is a pencil-and-paper module with some added artwork that would then be pitched to investors (along with the list of doners as evidence of demand) to turn into an MMO.  Being able to show that you beat your goal several times over should play well in a pitch.

Personally, I feel like they are putting the cart before the horse.  If you want to actually make something new, I want to see a focus on the actual game engine - not lore, not even the graphics/physics part of it, but the core world mechanics and databases that are going to make this world different from other static world out there.  I would like to see a kickstarter project to succeed and I have a lot of respect for pathfinder as a pencil-and-paper game, but the more I examine this inkblot to understand what they actually have in mind, the more I see this particular game idea is a checklist of things I *don't* want to see in a new game: cash-shop driven buisness model, openly hostile to non-PvP players, static content.

They've already reached their goals, so this project has definitely got traction.  Perhaps they will succeed in building a better Darkfall.  But I can't say I get a warm-and-fuzzy feeling off of it.

I'm keen to see what the engine is like also, what middleware allows them to do and what limits it places also. I think they've got a good artist on board (check?) Wayne Renolds and looking at some samples of that work it is fine, but yes the engine/tech is really crucial.

That said, if you read the blogs the design to manage the game and number of persistent players seems like it could work eg the hex system. Also I disagree with the label of non-pvp players getting "shafted". It's bad implementation of other pvp systems in other mmorpgs that ruins those. GW are well aware of that problem. IN FACT,imo the opposite holds, and "other players as content" is the way to go, if it can be implemented successfully (half the battle will be player selection possibly I'm wondering?)

And pvp in principle should be the bigger, related brother to pve imo. :) What's the difference between a mob or a player fighting you, unless the player is a griefer? The potential goes both ways more positive or more negative. Let's hope the positive direction works out for this one.

Mobs make sense, other players attacking you for no reason is just chaos.  Open warefare isn't even so chaotic.  

This, as far as i'm concerned, is worth than elder scroll, as DND has little  pvp and sandbox elements and yet here we are making a pvp sandbox games of DND .  

In DND you get quests, you go on adventures with your buddies, you kill mobs you get loot you save some princes or kingdoms.  Myteries unfold, the larger plot comes to fruition.  

From the sound of it, the initial plan was to do this, but when that was nixed they decided to create a low budget somethiing or another.  

Mobs vary in difficult, have additional abilities and tactics and presented with an AI to achieve a speicfic goal, whether its gaurding something or attacking or protecting an area.  Advanced IEs in real MMOs have sophisticated tactics that can be challenging. 

 

Ultimately PvE content is more static than other players and other players more dynamic content than PvE mobs. So in PnP the GM generates the dynamic content, but in MMO that is translated into a world that is complex interaction of many players. The tricky part is for all those players to play their parts according to the game eg you would not like it if the GM suddenly says, "10 dragons suddenly come around the corner of the tavern and fireball (rolls 50 dice) - you die instantly!"

But that's exactly what PVP content is.  It turns into people attempting to gank one another. It's built around people having an advantage over you.  PVE content is built to be balanced with you.  YOu know you are getting a proper challenge, sometihng constructed for your level.  PVE content is static, in that its there, its balanced its ready. But hwen you finish, you move on to hte next adveanture, like dnd.  Character's don't change once you hit a certain level, and thus you're building bigger gangs or relying on armor based gameplay to provide the challenge.  

I'd love to see a never winters night game, but there's a reason that game did well in 2002 and neverwinters night 2 did not. It was too complicated. The genre of game making had gotten complicated, more so than laying down tiles. Now there are 3d effects and a level of quality you expect from your games.  The building blocks for nwn2 was so complicated that only a few would attempt to build things in them.  That was 6 years ago.   The answer would be to make agame as simple as nwn2 and just bite the graphics to make building things easy or release a creation set that's complex that only a few people would ever take part in.

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3117

Veni, Vidi, Converti

6/07/12 5:12:16 PM#65

@ dontadow: Agree, with the NWN idea, some games these days are too over-produced (even the xcom firaxis one looks ott in some respects imo) in graphics for aesthetics when these actually detract from the game design/information required by the player to play the game. Even some iOS games fall into this problem esp. crazy given how small the screens are.

As for the pve vs pvp clash, strong implementation of pvp not weak implementation in open world sandbox is the answer. Eg save up a stash of cash for repeat bounties on any criminals. Content for other players already.

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1045

6/07/12 5:18:05 PM#66
Originally posted by MumboJumbo

@ dontadow: Agree, with the NWN idea, some games these days are too over-produced (even the xcom firaxis one looks ott in some respects imo) in graphics for aesthetics when these actually detract from the game design/information required by the player to play the game. Even some iOS games fall into this problem esp. crazy given how small the screens are.

As for the pve vs pvp clash, strong implementation of pvp not weak implementation in open world sandbox is the answer. Eg save up a stash of cash for repeat bounties on any criminals. Content for other players already.

But then you've changed the nature of the game. The game revolves around hunting down fugitives and avoiding being hunting, it doesn't detour ganking, only makes a mini game to fight find them.  The bounty system has not worked ina  single game to wipe out ganking.  

Why have PVP at all in the open world. As I"ve said before it makes no sense from an immersion factor and the reasons, the good ones, most people give often can be handled in other ways. 

Q. you want the thrill of danger 

A. go to higher level zones and do quests 

Q. you want to test your character against think players

A. Battlegrounds and areas designed to enhance PVP and create balaned play fields are created.  

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7121

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

6/07/12 5:18:09 PM#67
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Vesavius

Put up or shut up.

 

If we, as a community, are going to be doners supporting projects of interest and not simply end up suckers throwing money at hype in the wind, we have to actually be willing to actually research what it is we're throwing money at.  I'm not upset at you specifically, I'm upset at...

 

Look, the simple fact is that I was responding to how you chose to engage to me.. with caps and drama posting I mean.

My point was that with a proper link and calm point made in a decent manner from the start your message would be clearer and worth responding to in a constructive way.

I actually didn't argue against your point, if you go back and look. Know why that is? Because with conversation I am willing to admit someone else has a clearer idea of things then I do, when they do, and acknowledge and take on board what they are saying. I don't see every thread as a mini war.

It was how you chose to come at me that was the problem, not your actual information. I get what you're saying.

I hope you understand where I am coming from a bit clearer now.

 

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3117

Veni, Vidi, Converti

6/07/12 5:33:33 PM#68
Originally posted by dontadow
Originally posted by MumboJumbo

@ dontadow: Agree, with the NWN idea, some games these days are too over-produced (even the xcom firaxis one looks ott in some respects imo) in graphics for aesthetics when these actually detract from the game design/information required by the player to play the game. Even some iOS games fall into this problem esp. crazy given how small the screens are.

As for the pve vs pvp clash, strong implementation of pvp not weak implementation in open world sandbox is the answer. Eg save up a stash of cash for repeat bounties on any criminals. Content for other players already.

But then you've changed the nature of the game. The game revolves around hunting down fugitives and avoiding being hunting, it doesn't detour ganking, only makes a mini game to fight find them.  The bounty system has not worked ina  single game to wipe out ganking.  

Why have PVP at all in the open world. As I"ve said before it makes no sense from an immersion factor and the reasons, the good ones, most people give often can be handled in other ways. 

Q. you want the thrill of danger 

A. go to higher level zones and do quests 

Q. you want to test your character against think players

A. Battlegrounds and areas designed to enhance PVP and create balaned play fields are created.  

That's one part of it. They've mentioned militia NPC guards and distance from safe areas proportional response/spawn time to an attack is in seconds in those areas. So that's another side. Also travelling in a party and being federated will increase safety as well as distance/support. The players that gank a lot they've said they will look to ban. And there's all the rest of the consideration of aiming for players who want to play the game and not sabotage it and how to make that work. I think the anonymity is one area that mmorpgs will need to look at in terms of what players can do on early accounts and how they build alignment and reputation in game? Again another angle.

The pvp side to it, is the holistic aspect ideally I think: Players trading, politics, adventuring, crafting, building settlements and war. All need to be integrated to simulate a world. Conflict is one side to cooperation. Conflict could be negotiated peacefully or with arms. This ideally simulates a background story to those who just want to adventure and explore. That is where the unnecessary ganking does not fit into things and needs limiting. But even GW2's dynamic events cannot chain events as complex as what players might come up with. PvP even just the threat of it changes the conditions and atmosphere. Eg peace and war conditions.

 

  BlackUhuru

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/08
Posts: 793

"When you are confused, you are learning something"

6/07/12 6:04:51 PM#69
@dontadow

I understand you like theme park mmo's and that's fine, I have played just about all of them for a couple of months each. I have also played UO for 14 years.

I prefer not having quests to level, I prefer not having level zones, I prefer not having instances, I prefer non instanced PvP.

I prefer sandbox!

I prefer sanbox games because of the freedom to use my imagination, I like to be the DM of my own adventures, I like to be the DM for others adventure.

"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  BlackUhuru

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/08
Posts: 793

"When you are confused, you are learning something"

6/07/12 6:38:41 PM#70
Looks like a new stretch goal has been added since we crushed all the others.

If we get to 225k the legendary Ed Greenwood will sign everyone's Thornkeep Book!!

And it looks like we will most likely make that goal as well!

"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  Nevulus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1202

6/07/12 7:00:58 PM#71
Originally posted by BlackUhuru
Looks like a new stretch goal has been added since we crushed all the others.

If we get to 225k the legendary Ed Greenwood will sign everyone's Thornkeep Book!!

And it looks like we will most likely make that goal as well!

 

The inner geek in me wants that damn Ed Greenwood signature more than ANYTHING ELSE!

  BlackUhuru

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/08
Posts: 793

"When you are confused, you are learning something"

6/07/12 7:09:13 PM#72
It's just really cool to see such creative people such as Ed Greenwood backing this project.

It's the creative devs and designers that make great games, not the AAA suits!

"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  BlackUhuru

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/08
Posts: 793

"When you are confused, you are learning something"

6/07/12 7:45:28 PM#73
Well looks like another stretch goal has been added lol, after we crush 225k if we get to 250k Paizo will create 2 flip mats with 4 dungeons on them.

Quarter of a million in one month for a tech demo wow, talk about a community backing their games!!!

"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  darker70

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/21/08
Posts: 820

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
Groucho Marx

6/07/12 7:59:08 PM#74

It's pretty cool i wonder what all these execs,who never sanctioned or gave funding for these games feels like with all the backing and publicity from the public for basically bringing old school gameing back,just hope people back the The Repopulation now.

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1045

6/07/12 8:39:15 PM#75
Originally posted by BlackUhuru
@dontadow

I understand you like theme park mmo's and that's fine, I have played just about all of them for a couple of months each. I have also played UO for 14 years.

I prefer not having quests to level, I prefer not having level zones, I prefer not having instances, I prefer non instanced PvP.

I prefer sandbox!

I prefer sanbox games because of the freedom to use my imagination, I like to be the DM of my own adventures, I like to be the DM for others adventure.

 

And i get it, you like strategy games and not RPGs.  Yet, this website is called mMORPG.  Thus when peopel decry (more pvp) i ask why are they bringing this up on an rpg website or about something that is tradionally an RPG game. IN RPGs strategy elements are not "th game" they are usually side notes.  I can't imagine playing a game and hjaving to use my own imagiantion to tell the story.  I can do that without playing the game.  

 

@Mumbo

Paizo, as much asi love them is shooting themselves in the foot by toting pvp.  The majority of tabletop gamers won't associat e this with their traditonal dnd game. And whereas i like the idea of politics, I"d rather they, like real societies, have a legimtmate way to do things like declare war or politics.  if you're going to add civlization like elements, copy from the best.  Wars coudl easily be segmented on a seperate battlefield with systems that effect cities economy and such. 

I"m not saying i don't like the idea of sandbox elements in an rpg. Dark cloud is and will forever be my favorite adventure/rpg game of all time.  But it did it right. THere was a whole intelligent subsystem game to building yhour city that directly was related to your aventuring and questing.  It was original and fun.  

  BlackUhuru

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/08
Posts: 793

"When you are confused, you are learning something"

6/07/12 8:59:28 PM#76
@dontadow

I get it now! You just don't like PvP and that's ok.

We aren't asking for "more PvP" we are asking for RP back into are MMO's.

Bioware is RP'ing for you, your not actually RP'ing yourself.

We are obviously from two different generations, and two completely different communities of gamers.

I just hope some day we will all have a game to play that we like!!!

"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  dontadow

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1045

6/07/12 9:45:02 PM#77

We're from the same generation i think we just remember it diffrently, and not trying to start or keep up an argument.  But conflicts in rpgs, starting old school dnd, are done with systems in the game. What you're describin is making up your own system in your head between players or groups of players.  Creating a conflict of systems that can only be resolved with combats. 

In dnd, their are social systems, fighting systems, war systems, diplomacy systems. /Their are rules for all of these.  These systems are run by the dm.  Unless i get a personal dm in the game, i'd rather leave these systems up to the ai as opposed  players making up systems outside of the realm of the game.  

  BlackUhuru

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/08
Posts: 793

"When you are confused, you are learning something"

6/07/12 10:25:28 PM#78
@dontadow

No it's cool I totally understand everything your saying, and you could very much be right.

Im just a big fan of sandbox games and the freedom they allow me to have, I like to create my own back stories and follow them through in game.

I want my RPG back in my MMOG's. Pathfinder online is backed by RPG creators, developed by RPG designers and supported by RPG community.

I just want my freedom back!!!

"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

  blackthornn

Novice Member

Joined: 7/31/04
Posts: 527

OMG I'm not temp banned again? WTF?? This day does end in Y right?

6/07/12 10:36:48 PM#79
Originally posted by maplestone

"Of course, those who simply wish to avoid any PvP at all will choose to remain within the very high security zones close to NPC settlements where PvP is effectively impossible. Such players will have fewer opportunities to find adventure or to earn treasure than their braver and less risk-averse peers, but they'll be safe from griefers."

When the developers are pre-griefing you, it hardly feels safe.

perfect example of D&D/Pathfinder aswell.  really.  if you're on crack.

 

Sounds like a bunch of butthurt Darkfall players trying to make a new game.

  BlackUhuru

Novice Member

Joined: 6/08/08
Posts: 793

"When you are confused, you are learning something"

6/07/12 10:40:18 PM#80
Never played Darkfall but we do want a new game! Doesn't everyone?

"It would be awesome if you could duel your companion. Then you could solo pvp".--Thanes

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