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The Secret World

The Secret World 

General Discussion  » Who wants to play a mmo with levels?

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216 posts found
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

6/06/12 4:56:31 PM#121
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?

It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.

 

Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game?  If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.

because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  User Deleted
6/06/12 5:00:51 PM#122
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?

It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.

 

Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game?  If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.

because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate

if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.

it doesnt matter...

thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes.  Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.  

On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content.  its another argument that doesnt matter.

  User Deleted
6/06/12 5:04:39 PM#123

Has someone on the official forums wrote "We can agree there's no levels. Only levels" Sounds good to me. Who wants pizza?

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

6/06/12 5:05:01 PM#124
Originally posted by Crunchy221
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?

It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.

 

Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game?  If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.

because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate

if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.

it doesnt matter...

thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes.  Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.  

On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content.  its another argument that doesnt matter.

how would you equip that top of the line gear with no skill points? thats the whole point! its straight up linear progression but gives you a ton more choices on how to progress and is a lot more flexible and interesting. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

 

straight up free open skill based system without any sort of gear restrictions really only works for single player games or games setup like EVE, in most MMOs you would just end up giving top of the line gear to new players(by people who already reached last parts of the game) and making content way to easy and pointless. Also as a story centered game it needs this linear progression to get you through the story. I'm glad zones are setup in straight quest hubs but their is still progression in zones and especially between zones.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  cooper85

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 390

 
OP  6/06/12 6:34:17 PM#125
Originally posted by Crunchy221
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?

It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.

 

Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game?  If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.

because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate

if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.

it doesnt matter...

thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes.  Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.  

On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content.  its another argument that doesnt matter.

Aero knows there is no way to put a number on level in TSW because there are no levels. He/she just wants to pvp right now ;)

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

6/06/12 6:37:19 PM#126
Originally posted by cooper85
Originally posted by Crunchy221
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?

It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.

 

Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game?  If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.

because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate

if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.

it doesnt matter...

thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes.  Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.  

On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content.  its another argument that doesnt matter.

Aero knows there is no way to put a number on level in TSW because there are no levels. He/she just wants to pvp right now ;)

as stated in my post above its about progression and this games is set up in a similar fashion to most other themepark mmos in that regard.. nothing wrong with that but its just how the game was designed.  If you are just talking numbers only  here than sure no levels yippy!

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3712

RIP City of Heroes!

6/06/12 7:46:34 PM#127
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by cutthecrap

Let's just summarise the whole (imo silly) discussion going on in this thread:

- levels are a form of progression => time spent  on the game gaining xp = level gain = ability/skillpoint and/or gear increase

- all levelless MMO's, even the ones like EVE, use a form of progression => time spent on the game = ability/skillpoint and/or 'gear' increase

 

You missed the part i added in yellow, but i agree with you.  The two can effectively be the same, except the latter doesn't have a set overall number (level) to sum up your progression total.

Not sure about that. Can you redo it and highlight in red.  That might make all the difference...

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7682

Logic be damned!

6/06/12 7:51:17 PM#128

7x GM - UO

250 skill point max (was it 250 i can't remember?) - SWG

level 60 - WoW

All the same in the end.

 

Linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression

 

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  Thorqemada

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/04
Posts: 1197

6/06/12 7:57:00 PM#129


Originally posted by BadSpock
7x GM - UO

250 skill point max (was it 250 i can't remember?) - SWG

level 60 - WoW

All the same in the end.

 

Linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression

 


Its not the same bcs levels in WOW direct where you play while skillpoints do not.

"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
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  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

6/06/12 8:00:37 PM#130

I could care less if the game is designed with traditional levels or some type of skill progression system the end result tends to be the same.  the only difference between a game like SWg and level based games was playing SWG was like you stayed a level one character for like months untl you got your advanced class.

  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7682

Logic be damned!

6/06/12 8:05:48 PM#131
Originally posted by Thorqemada

Originally posted by BadSpock
7x GM - UO

250 skill point max (was it 250 i can't remember?) - SWG

level 60 - WoW

All the same in the end.

Linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression

 

Its not the same bcs levels in WOW direct where you play while skillpoints do not.

Yes, yes they do.

 

Now Playing: D3:RoS, Watch Dogs
Looking Towards: Destiny

  raistlinm

Novice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 686

6/06/12 8:11:54 PM#132
Originally posted by Thorqemada

 


Originally posted by BadSpock
7x GM - UO

 

250 skill point max (was it 250 i can't remember?) - SWG

level 60 - WoW

All the same in the end.

 

Linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression = linear statistical progression

 

 


 

Its not the same bcs levels in WOW direct where you play while skillpoints do not.

This is a flasehood I see echoed far too often on this site.  SWG was known as one of the best skill based games around at one time and I assure you that the amount of skill points you had certainly did dictate where you were able to go and what you were able to do. 

I assure you walking off a ship with a good blaster and a few points wouldn't have you killing rancors any quicker than alot of the level based games that you seem to think playh so differently.

Levels seem to be a far more simplisitc way of gating content but make no mistake every game out there does it unless you can tell us of some game where you can fight and beat the best baddies around without reaching a certain skill level I'm going to have to call that assertion a myth.

  Breitbart

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/12
Posts: 23

6/06/12 8:24:31 PM#133

I wanted to like this game, as i wanted to like TOR.  I won't pay $15/month for a cooperative puzzle game, aka TSW.  I also wont pay $15 for a single-player rpg; aka TOR.  Most are wiser than that.  I can play ARMA DayZ in a persistent world and have more massively-multiplayer fun, since this market has redefined massively-multiplayer as a 4-person instanced group.

  TheSedated

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/04
Posts: 84

6/06/12 8:47:39 PM#134
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Crunchy221
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?

It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.

 

Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game?  If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.

because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate

if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.

it doesnt matter...

thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes.  Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.  

On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content.  its another argument that doesnt matter.

how would you equip that top of the line gear with no skill points? thats the whole point! its straight up linear progression but gives you a ton more choices on how to progress and is a lot more flexible and interesting. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

 

straight up free open skill based system without any sort of gear restrictions really only works for single player games or games setup like EVE, in most MMOs you would just end up giving top of the line gear to new players(by people who already reached last parts of the game) and making content way to easy and pointless. Also as a story centered game it needs this linear progression to get you through the story. I'm glad zones are setup in straight quest hubs but their is still progression in zones and especially between zones.

Even in EVE you are restricted in what you're able to use. It depends on the skills you trained. You can't use Cruisers from the first second you login, you can't use T2(+) ship systems, you can't even use all T1 systems because for the best version you need the skill for it on level 4. Also you have to farm standing for your faction to be able to do level 2(+) missions, you can't go mining everywhere because the rats would kick your ass as a new player, etc. pp.. Most, if not all, of the arguments on TSW having levels can be used on EVE also and should have the same outcome. I'm wondering why it doesn't.

  tares

Novice Member

Joined: 8/16/11
Posts: 384

6/06/12 9:06:21 PM#135
Originally posted by kiern
Originally posted by tares
My theory is that min/max the best abilities and gear and there is no reason to change a skill in PvE at all, maybe a second min/max set for PvP, same DPS skills but more snares/stuns.  Like I said, inferno act 2 and beyond in diablo 3 is much harder than TSW ever will be and any class can do it all with 1 build.   Most mobs can kill a player in 1 to 3 hits while bosses have modifiers like run speed enhanced, fire projectiles, trap you in place.  One build can handle all of it.

And that  is the problem. You state it like it were fact, but you are just making random speculation based on nothing.  The devs have said that at higher levels, bosses will require specific abilities to take them down. If you narrowly specialize, you will not have the skills needed to defeat them.  They are doing that to specifically counter what you suggest. 

 

 

 

 

 

OK I stand corrected, All bosses could be done with a holy trinity setup in every game, and with 10 man raiding you get two holy trinity's so can have bosses stack anti healing and swap tanks.  There is one exception and if you state it Devs said, "higher level bosses require specific abilities" to kill.

WoW "required" tranquil shot from hunters to take down raid bosses, it was a gimmick and pretty poor programming when you require some useless ability to kill something.  Tranquil shot nulled enrage from beast NPCs only so maybe 3 raid bosses required it and it was a pretty poor excuse to urge raids to bring hunters.  So yay, instead of tuned and hard instances and raiding we get a gimmick?

based on all popular MMOs with PvE and all single player RPGs that let you play a team which most do, I use holy trinity to kill everything even though in single player RPG's I can use any combo and swap at any time, I play tons of JRPGs and there are tons of bosses, final fantasy series for example.

Isn't the point of this thread about how you need to level up weapon skills to get better gear to advance to the next area?

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

6/06/12 9:19:11 PM#136
If you count filling out the skill wheel completely, you need to "level" 7906 times.

To max out in raw power - 2 weapeons to the full, takes 1526 "levels" less than 20% into the game.

So 80% of the "leveling" is horizontal and purely about making your character more diverse
  badgerAlum

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/05/09
Posts: 27

6/06/12 9:26:05 PM#137
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Crunchy221
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Crunchy221

Is this another thread where a few people who lack an understanding about the game are arguing with people who have played and do understand?

It seems we have a lot of these arguments where people "dont get it" and are locked into the standard wow-park frame of mind try to hammer people who "get it" over trivial things that dont even matter in the game.

 

Why even argue about "hidden" levels if they dont matter in the game?  If your looking at this game with a microscope trying to uncover the level system or the class system you really are doing it wrong...and you seem lost in your preconditioned mmorpg view..when they said this game wasnt going to appeal to everyone they literally were refering to you.

because they DO matter and that's the point... unless you are telling me you can take on zones in egypt right out the gate

if your given top of the line gear, and magically have the right skill...you could.

it doesnt matter...

thing is you wont have the gear, and you wont have the skills, depending on how you place your AP/SP you will be able to do it quicker than someone else who evenly distributes.  Both players will have done the same content but one will be able to move on...thats not levels no matter how hard you want to believe.  

On top of the storyline reasoning ect for jumping content.  its another argument that doesnt matter.

how would you equip that top of the line gear with no skill points? thats the whole point! its straight up linear progression but gives you a ton more choices on how to progress and is a lot more flexible and interesting. Not sure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.

 

straight up free open skill based system without any sort of gear restrictions really only works for single player games or games setup like EVE, in most MMOs you would just end up giving top of the line gear to new players(by people who already reached last parts of the game) and making content way to easy and pointless. Also as a story centered game it needs this linear progression to get you through the story. I'm glad zones are setup in straight quest hubs but their is still progression in zones and especially between zones.

And this makes me say that even EVE has levels.  Can you just roll a new character and hop in a Titan?  Never mind that, can you even hop into a destroyer?  

  simplyawful

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 88

6/06/12 10:28:01 PM#138
Originally posted by cooper85

 

You know that takes about 600 hours of good game play? There is now way in the world would I try to gain all the abilities, nor would I ever have a reason to. That's just silly. In that scenario you speak of the person with all of everything will hit no harder than a guy with a few weapons partially completed.

 

Well.. they claim it does. How much actual time it will take will be another thing. It IS however the primary progression of the game; you will not reach your characters full potential until you lock all abilities.

Most people who play the game will either play until the content is exhausted, or until they reach that phase. It's like saying that people won't hit max level in Tera, GW2, WoW etc.. it's kind of ridiculous, unless you assume that people will be so horribly bored of the game that they will stop playing it before "600" hours.

 

The wheel is the end-game content, if the in-game content is exhausted before you unlock it all, which makes senes entirely since most content is repeatable.

For a subscription-based game, 600 hours isn't even all that much. People can hit upwards of 200 in a single month, so .. saying this game has less than 3 months of playing time isn't very encouraging.

 

  simplyawful

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 88

6/06/12 10:29:31 PM#139
Originally posted by ShakyMo
If you count filling out the skill wheel completely, you need to "level" 7906 times.

To max out in raw power - 2 weapeons to the full, takes 1526 "levels" less than 20% into the game.

So 80% of the "leveling" is horizontal and purely about making your character more diverse

 

The SP play a role in that though and you still get them while you unlock the rest of the wheel? Not trying to force any NDA breaks, just wondering how soon/late SP caps, which is the basis of customizing your play style (your preferred abilities in the wheel).

 

 

  kiern

Novice Member

Joined: 3/04/04
Posts: 430

6/07/12 12:00:40 AM#140
Originally posted by tares
 

OK I stand corrected, All bosses could be done with a holy trinity setup in every game, and with 10 man raiding you get two holy trinity's so can have bosses stack anti healing and swap tanks.  There is one exception and if you state it Devs said, "higher level bosses require specific abilities" to kill.

WoW "required" tranquil shot from hunters to take down raid bosses, it was a gimmick and pretty poor programming when you require some useless ability to kill something.  Tranquil shot nulled enrage from beast NPCs only so maybe 3 raid bosses required it and it was a pretty poor excuse to urge raids to bring hunters.  So yay, instead of tuned and hard instances and raiding we get a gimmick?

based on all popular MMOs with PvE and all single player RPGs that let you play a team which most do, I use holy trinity to kill everything even though in single player RPG's I can use any combo and swap at any time, I play tons of JRPGs and there are tons of bosses, final fantasy series for example.

Isn't the point of this thread about how you need to level up weapon skills to get better gear to advance to the next area?

No. The OP was about how they never wanted to play another game with normal leveling, after having played with TSW's system.  It was you that keeps trying to change the focus, to how leveling weapon skills is the exact same thing. Of course, by your reasoning, any game that allows you to increase skills, and improve your character, including sanbox games like EVE, also have leveling.    In that respect, there is leveling, but there are no levels.  You can say that you could equate your weapons progression to skill levels, but as I pointed out earlier, two players with the exact same amount of experience earned, coul look very different. If you focused on 2 weapons the whole time, you would be stronger with those weapons, while the other person may have skills in all the weapon types, and not be particularly strong with any of them.

I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to convince people that that this system is the same as every other leveling system. It clearly isn't, and you "theory" is nothing but pure speculation with no basis in fact.  It was also ridiculous to bring up that WoW situation and imply that it is the same thing. Again, more fabrication. Apparently you have an agenda that you plan to stick to.

With this system, do you really thing that the devs did not consider players doing what you suggested? They did. And they plan to counter it by requiring flexibility in players builds, for various encounters. When I said higher levels, I did not mean end game. I meant higher than what most people have currently seen.  That can't do that in early levels when players only have a few skills to work with, but later mobs will have that.  They said that players will need flexible builds, and not just for boss mobs.

I honestly don't see how what you have done in other games is a factor in what you can do in this one.  This game is different.  You comments are pure speculation, yet you keep trying to state them as fact. Again, I don't understand why you are trying so hard to convince people that your speculations are truth. 

 

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