The lack of player customization (Replayability)

First off, there are no longer any skill trees, there are no longer any truly binding skill choices other than killing part of a buff.

Some players might find the lack of binding skill choices good, since you can experiment more readily, but it does diminish the replayability of the game, since there is no longer any incentive to roll an alt just to play through the game with a different play style.

I understand that the younger generation, particularly the generation who grew up with WoW will probably favor this choice and the game design teams influence/experience in that area probably lead to that decision, but what I think they completely don't understand is that the vast majority of the people who purchased d3 were ex-d2 players.

Every college dorm in 2000 was filled with people who were playing d2. It was a social trend back then.

Still with the different builds, there is absolutely nothing to set you apart from other players, since everybody gets everything and isn't restricted to a particular play style.

I like change. I didn't want a carbon copy of D2, but for a game to remove all customization in favor of having accessibility is not my personal cup of tea. It takes away bad decisions and doesn't allow any sophisticated planning for the player who likes to do that kind of research.

The game designer actually admitted to doing it to "dumb down" the game. Of course I don't think it's dumbing down as much as killing replayability.

In WoW the option to change roles readily exists, because of the ability to play with others and the requirement to be a certain role at a given time. D3 does not have that inherent complexity, so it is ENTIRLEY WASTED.

The lack of progression

Progression in D3 is not smoothed: It starts with a slightly concave curve until you hit a brick wall due to the fact that you reach max level and get all skills immediately; the only thing that remains for you to progress is through your gear.

It is, once again, a lot like WoW.

Why would you want to have a slowly attainable max level? It's simple economics really, or rather, the concavity of utility functions: People, on average, prefer some kind of reward that isn't risky. In D2, even if you went on a run and got no items, the exp you got made up for it, since it led you to progress your character. 

You had a locked in reward! A common complaint in the forums from anybody who has reached inferno is the horrible drop rate of items to the point where you will most likely not get anything you can use from drops in a reasonable time frame.

It is understandable that the horrible drop rate and incredibly awful brick wall you hit is necessary due to bad game design. They would not suffer economically if they were to add a hardly attainable level cap and keep the drop rates, since the reliance on items would still be there.

Of course the brick wall difficulty that accompanies it isn't any better. In fact, it makes things a whole lot worse, since the game on inferno is designed to restrict you on what you can do based on the quality of your gear, further styming progression.

TLDR:

- Old players vs. new players; rerolling an alt with a diff build to experience the game differently no longer the case.

- Progression no longer smooth. Brick wall at 60 with respect to progression due to gear being the only means along with drop rates etc.

Colored text most relevant!

This might be interesting, since there is a great number of players that cannot fathom a progression system that is not bound to some readblocks or being infinite, not bound by the content.

Flame on!

:)

Can't say I agree.  I'e noticed a jump in difficulty in NM and Hell.  I found stacking vitality gems helped both my Barb and DH after normal.  Going sword and board made things much easier for my barb.

Longevity is an interesting question.  If you give up because of Inferno, then yes it fails the longevity test for YOU.  I prefer the challenge and knowing it will take a while to get the gear I need to actually farm everything in the game.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Can't say I agree.  I'e noticed a jump in difficulty in NM and Hell.  I found stacking vitality gems helped both my Barb and DH after normal.  Going sword and board made things much easier for my barb.

 

Longevity is an interesting question.  If you give up because of Inferno, then yes it fails the longevity test for YOU.  I prefer the challenge and knowing it will take a while to get the gear I need to actually farm everything in the game.

That is not related to the topic at all. Please read my initial post. I didn't complain about the difficulty per se, but the end-game progression i.e. once you've completed inferno.

Bad things happen when your game is built around greed (RMAH) instead of making a great game.

Replay value? You mean farming gold for the AH? No thanks.

I've played various characters up into Hell difficulty and the replay is starting to wear thin and get boring. The progression feels meaningless to me. I doubt I'll be playing D3 much longer, mostly playing now only because I am still enjoying playing co-op with guildmates and family members. I know I won't be playing by the time the RMAH hits.

In answer to the topic question: So you would use the AH and eventually spend a lot of real money for gear.

Originally posted by Paradigm68

In answer to the topic question: So you would use the AH and eventually spend a lot of real money for gear.

There are a lot of ways to do that without chasing away the entirety of the playebase once they've completed inferno.

Had they kept the D2 drop rates, they would have still made out like bandits due to the natural competition of the AH sales along with the extra security provided to people selling items.

It's not just a question of greed, but incompetence: You don't maximize profits by making your customers hit diminishing returns immediately.

there was no end game in D2 other than pvp, that is what D3 lacks at this point. also, when people made alt after alt in D2 it wasn't because of the replayablity LOL

how many people actually leveled all those alts up themselves rather than being "rushed" there? you weren't even playing the game for god sakes, you were just standing there leaching experience and waiting to get high level so you can start pvping again.

basically, the way blizzard designed their game was to eliminate the need to waste your time with rolling the same class over and over just so you can pvp with a different build or make an MF build.

standing there naked with no skills spent waiting to hit level 80ish in one day is not replayability, it was bad design. (looking back on it)

i do however agree about the drop rates, its not fun farming endlessly and not getting upgrades that often.

they should have left the legendaries the way they were in D2 (uniques) and kept the drop rates for those the same too.

as it stands now, from what i have seen, many of the legendaries are kind of worthless compared to some of the rares.

Originally posted by Zekiah

Bad things happen when your game is built around greed (RMAH) instead of making a great game.

Replay value? You mean farming gold for the AH? No thanks.

Yep, a huge step towards ruining the game, but a brilliant way to milk a ton of extra cash from the disappointment of a great many loyal fans.  Will probably cost them in the long run, but maybe the people in charge over there are planning on being retired by then.

Originally posted by Ryukan

I've played various characters up into Hell difficulty and the replay is starting to wear thin and get boring. The progression feels meaningless to me. I doubt I'll be playing D3 much longer, mostly playing now only because I am still enjoying playing co-op with guildmates and family members. I know I won't be playing by the time the RMAH hits.

I'm not even through nightmare and I already find it wearing thin.

To answer the title of your post OP, it's a simple problem. Greed.

They released the game this early because they were afraid of GW2 and TL2 messing with their initial sales.

They released it with such a low ability to randomize, hardly any content, and "features" like the RMAH, which they are now adjusting the drop rates for good items to get ready for, ALL to make the highest buck.

The next step, i would not put it past them to put out a mini expansion of new content that they already had in developement but would not have been finished for launch, as a DLC style mini expansion everyone would have to pay for. 

I played quite a bit of D2 and have gotten a character into hell mode at this moment in time.  I see no effect on replayability and progression at all.  What I do see are a bunch of complainers that aren't really complaining about anything logical, just complaining because it's what they do best.

In the most recent patch notes, Blizzard has stated that they are going to try and smooth out Inferno difficulty.  So this issue is recieving some attention.

I believe your thought that the vast majority of D3 players are D2 players is flat out wrong.  D2 was out before WoW.  WoW brought in millions and millions of new players into the gaming scene.  I am 100% certain that the majority of D3 players did not play D2.  Not only that, assuming this is true, it would fall in line with what these gamers want anyways.  You know, since most of them would be your typical 'I want everything now' type of player.

I've come across a ton of difficult skill decisions.  As you can only pick a certain few to use at any given time.  I don't think a lack of hard-line skill trees is a negative.  I personally feel that it is a positive.  You can't switch between skills instantly either.  

I never reached level cap in D2.  Just throwing that out there.  I think your idea is the wrong way to go.  This game is going to have eSport style PvP.  You have to lock people into levels.  Those levels do give a small advantage, provided all gear is the same.  You can't have a LvL 81 going up against a LvL 98.  It doesn't make sense.  They have evened the playing field and that's the first step in PvP balance.

I can tell that you are passionate about this game and that you've put some time into this post.  I respect that.  I just don't agree with most of what you have to say and I think the people who agree with you are just short sighted and complaining just because you can.

1) Progression is just fine. I prefer this skill system >>> more than the skill ponit tree one. You can experiment and have more variety of play.

2) You can roll alts to check out other classes. It is a pain to roll alts on the small class to try out builds.

3) Longevity? This is not an MMO. I have already been playing this for weeks and probably will for more weeks. That is long enough for any game.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

1) Progression is just fine. I prefer this skill system >>> more than the skill ponit tree one. You can experiment and have more variety of play.

2) You can roll alts to check out other classes. It is a pain to roll alts on the small class to try out builds.

3) Longevity? This is not an MMO. I have already been playing this for weeks and probably will for more weeks. That is long enough for any game.

1) In theory, not in reality, apart from "respecs".

2) But.. would you? Inferno again, grind for more money again...

3) So you actually agree with the OP, but say that it does not matter, fair enough. :)

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Zekiah

Bad things happen when your game is built around greed (RMAH) instead of making a great game.

Replay value? You mean farming gold for the AH? No thanks.

 

Yep, a huge step towards ruining the game, but a brilliant way to milk a ton of extra cash from the disappointment of a great many loyal fans.  Will probably cost them in the long run, but maybe the people in charge over there are planning on being retired by then.

 

AFAIC, they took a big huge dump on long-time loyal Diablo fans. This was just a quick cash-grab. With all the cash and resources they have, and with a brilliant model like D2, they had everything they need to expand on the Diablo series. Instead, we get a stinky, smelly dump.

For those who keep saying they rushed the game out because of GW2 and TSW are totally off base. Blizzard does not need to worry about their products selling. They always do, it comes with being the giant they have become. The game was not rushed out anyway. As far as the RMAH it is simple do not use it. Diablo has always been about repetative farming for gear. Those of you who say the drop rates are terrible, they always were. That was the point to keep replaying the game to keep farming over and over and over again. The game has no even been out a month and people want to be geared tooth and nail. The point was to keep playing the replaying the lower difficulities farming gear to merge into the higher then ultimately keep gearing up becoming more and more powerful. People just want things easy mode now and the gear to drop first time through. 

Originally posted by davinci179

For those who keep saying they rushed the game out because of GW2 and TSW are totally off base. Blizzard does not need to worry about their products selling. They always do, it comes with being the giant they have become. The game was not rushed out anyway. As far as the RMAH it is simple do not use it. Diablo has always been about repetative farming for gear. Those of you who say the drop rates are terrible, they always were. That was the point to keep replaying the game to keep farming over and over and over again. The game has no even been out a month and people want to be geared tooth and nail. The point was to keep playing the replaying the lower difficulities farming gear to merge into the higher then ultimately keep gearing up becoming more and more powerful. People just want things easy mode now and the gear to drop first time through. 

The problem isn't the quantity of loot drops, the problem is with quality. The loot tables suck and so does the loot. The lack of creativity in suffixes and prefixes is dismal. They've had plenty of time and they have plenty of money and should have done a FAR better job creating loot. Their loot system is worse that vanilla D2, less of everything and more of nothing.

Originally posted by simplyawful

The lack of player customization (Replayability)

 

First off, there are no longer any skill trees, there are no longer any truly binding skill choices other than killing part of a buff.

Some players might find the lack of binding skill choices good, since you can experiment more readily, but it does diminish the replayability of the game, since there is no longer any incentive to roll an alt just to play through the game with a different play style.

 

I understand that the younger generation, particularly the generation who grew up with WoW will probably favor this choice and the game design teams influence/experience in that area probably lead to that decision, but what I think they completely don't understand is that the vast majority of the people who purchased d3 were ex-d2 players.

Every college dorm in 2000 was filled with people who were playing d2. It was a social trend back then.

Still with the different builds, there is absolutely nothing to set you apart from other players, since everybody gets everything and isn't restricted to a particular play style.

 

I like change. I didn't want a carbon copy of D2, but for a game to remove all customization in favor of having accessibility is not my personal cup of tea. It takes away bad decisions and doesn't allow any sophisticated planning for the player who likes to do that kind of research.

The game designer actually admitted to doing it to "dumb down" the game. Of course I don't think it's dumbing down as much as killing replayability.

 

In WoW the option to change roles readily exists, because of the ability to play with others and the requirement to be a certain role at a given time. D3 does not have that inherent complexity, so it is ENTIRLEY WASTED.

 

The lack of progression

 

Progression in D3 is not smoothed: It starts with a slightly concave curve until you hit a brick wall due to the fact that you reach max level and get all skills immediately; the only thing that remains for you to progress is through your gear.

It is, once again, a lot like WoW.

Why would you want to have a slowly attainable max level? It's simple economics really, or rather, the concavity of utility functions: People, on average, prefer some kind of reward that isn't risky. In D2, even if you went on a run and got no items, the exp you got made up for it, since it led you to progress your character. 

You had a locked in reward! A common complaint in the forums from anybody who has reached inferno is the horrible drop rate of items to the point where you will most likely not get anything you can use from drops in a reasonable time frame.

 

It is understandable that the horrible drop rate and incredibly awful brick wall you hit is necessary due to bad game design. They would not suffer economically if they were to add a hardly attainable level cap and keep the drop rates, since the reliance on items would still be there.

Of course the brick wall difficulty that accompanies it isn't any better. In fact, it makes things a whole lot worse, since the game on inferno is designed to restrict you on what you can do based on the quality of your gear, further styming progression.

 

TLDR:

- Old players vs. new players; rerolling an alt with a diff build to experience the game differently no longer the case.

- Progression no longer smooth. Brick wall at 60 with respect to progression due to gear being the only means along with drop rates etc.

Colored text most relevant!

 

 

 

 

Its a shame they didnt make an in game system where people could easily exchange high value gear and aquire a good set, since they made good gear really hard to find.

Cant wait untill the other 97% of the players make it to an easy inferno and flood the AH with all the good drops.