I don't think I can go back to a mmo with levels. Just like I can't go back to an mmo with nothing but quest text. The traditional leveling systems in mmos where you start at 1 and work/rush/grind your way to cap seems old an pointless. 

If you have played TSW you understand how different the leveless progression system is. 

"But cooper, your wrong TSW really has levels but there hidden." No TSW has proficientcies that you put skill points into that allow you to use better talismans (gear in the traditional scense) . There are no levels. You gain no HP or stregnth or raw power from adding these points nor do you have to add these points in any order other than your next will be more than your prior. You don't magically go from whimpy to awsome because of the number by you picture frame. 

For those of you that have not played this is how the skill points work. First the purpose of recently adding skill points is to not allow a new player to bypass all the content by being gifted the best gear. 

So, there are 3 talisman proficientcies. Minor, Major, and Head. There are 3 gear slots for both minor and major with 1 for the head. There are also 2 proficientcies per weapon. The quality level of  weapons you can use are based on your highest proficientcies for that weapon. 

Lets say I'm working on a hammer/blood magic build. As I fill my xp each 1/3 bar, I will get 1 ability point. I will use these to buy or work my way towards any of the 525 abilities. Every full bar I will gain 1 skill point. So for this build I will probably put that skill point into one of the three talisman proficientcies or into one of the four weapon proficientcies for blood magic and hammers. There is no order or right way to progress. 

I can't imagine going through the traditional 1-cap system again. Then on top of that, rerolling doing it all over again just to try a new style. This system was a breathe of fresh air to this old gamer.

This below hit the nail on the head. 

Originally posted by dubyahite

 

I think the point in calling it levelless is that your character doesn't have levels. Sure there is progression of skills and gear, but you are kidding yourself if you say it's the exact same as levels. It's really not.

There is a progression path, for both the skills and the gear, and it does have similarities with a traditional level system as well as content that is gated by difficulty, but there are enough differences to call it levelless as well as classless.

Your character doesn't have a level. They have skills. Your character doesn't have a set class. You have abilities. All characters have access to the same abilities.

You can argue about how close it is to levels and classes until you are blue in the face, it doesn't make them exist.

A game can have progression and still not have classes or levels. Levels are a number that you associate your characters combat capability with. That number is not present in this game.

Classes are character archetypes that decide what abilities, stats, gear and roles your character can utilize. If you want to call the weapons classes, fine go ahead. But all characters are all classes in this game. Everyone has access to every weapon and every skill in the game. There is only one class, and that class is "any character."

This is a pretty weird argument to watch, btw. I feel like people are really stretching their arguments here. It doesn't matter what you want to call it. There is no number in game that signifies your character's level. Just as there is no character that is limited to a specific class.

Just because a game doesn't have levels doesn't mean it can't have other forms of progression!  

---

you have valid points..but still if a game is good (overall)  i dont mind even if it has the traditional questing system... 

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

 

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

What was level cap in Asheron? Did it have one? Did you gain HP and power from leveling up? If you did it is very different that what is here. What level would I be if I had 15 points in blood, 10 points in hammers, 24 points in major talismans and 20 points in pistols?

Skill point =/= level try as you might to make it so, they are far from the same.

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

 

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

You hit the nail on the head.

The max level is the completion of the wheel and all available SP.

Originally posted by simplyawful

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

 

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

 

You hit the nail on the head.

The max level is the completion of the wheel and all available SP.

 

You know that takes about 600 hours of good game play? There is now way in the world would I try to gain all the abilities, nor would I ever have a reason to. That's just silly. In that scenario you speak of the person with all of everything will hit no harder than a guy with a few weapons partially completed.

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

 

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

What was level cap in Asheron? Did it have one? Did you gain HP and power from leveling up? If you did it is very different that what is here. What level would I be if I had 15 points in blood, 10 points in hammers, 24 points in major talismans and 20 points in pistols?

 

Skill point =/= level try as you might to make it so, they are far from the same.

The two max skill point skills do.  This game is tiered with gear so it is the same thing, max out two skills and get level 10 weapons and tailsman and is like being level caped in any MMO. You run hard modes or PvP,  If you PvP or try hard modes w/o max skill level and thus weaker gear you will be under leveled for the content.  Just like a game that has level requirements on gear, TSW has proficiency requirements.

Points come faster at end game so a reverse leveling curve,  I'm sure a pro could max it out in a few days due to repeatable quests.

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

 

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

What was level cap in Asheron? Did it have one? Did you gain HP and power from leveling up? If you did it is very different that what is here. What level would I be if I had 15 points in blood, 10 points in hammers, 24 points in major talismans and 20 points in pistols?

 

Skill point =/= level try as you might to make it so, they are far from the same.

  This game is tiered with gear so it is the same thing, max out two skills and get level 10 weapons and tailsman and is like being level caped in any MMO. 

Not really.. If you just maxed out 2 weapons and talismans (96 of the 525 abilities) your character will be severly lacking due to lack of synergy.  

What level would the guy you described be? Abilities =/= levels.

People with lesser gear can and do out play people with better gear all the time. It's not like a level one that can't even hit a level 80 or w/e.  

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

 

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

What was level cap in Asheron? Did it have one? Did you gain HP and power from leveling up? If you did it is very different that what is here. What level would I be if I had 15 points in blood, 10 points in hammers, 24 points in major talismans and 20 points in pistols?

 

Skill point =/= level try as you might to make it so, they are far from the same.

The two max skill point skills do.  This game is tiered with gear so it is the same thing, max out two skills and get level 10 weapons and tailsman and is like being level caped in any MMO. You run hard modes or PvP,  If you PvP or try hard modes w/o max skill level and thus weaker gear you will be under leveled for the content.

Not really.. If you just maxed out 2 weapons and talismans (96 of the 525 abilities) your character will be severly lacking due to lack of synergy.  

Doubt it, some skills are broken over powered.  Just pick those up imo.  It doesnt even seem as tier 3 is stronger than tier 1 from the ability sheet so just max the over powered abilities.   If wait for stuff to get fixed, people will be bored of grinding the same quests and dungeans for AP/SP and have moved on to other games.  So just find two trees with gear and abilities to max.  You wouldn't even need to max the trees aside from needing it to use gear.

Holy trinity - tank, damage, or heals - two trees easy for any 1.

If I am level 10 max at two DPS trees I'm pretty sure I can insta gib any level 9 and maybe 10 and under using broken abilities from open beta only.

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

 

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

What was level cap in Asheron? Did it have one? Did you gain HP and power from leveling up? If you did it is very different that what is here. What level would I be if I had 15 points in blood, 10 points in hammers, 24 points in major talismans and 20 points in pistols?

 

Skill point =/= level try as you might to make it so, they are far from the same.

The two max skill point skills do.  This game is tiered with gear so it is the same thing, max out two skills and get level 10 weapons and tailsman and is like being level caped in any MMO. You run hard modes or PvP,  If you PvP or try hard modes w/o max skill level and thus weaker gear you will be under leveled for the content.

Not really.. If you just maxed out 2 weapons and talismans (96 of the 525 abilities) your character will be severly lacking due to lack of synergy.  

Doubt it, some skills are broken over powered.  Just pick those up imo.  It doesnt even seem as tier 3 is stronger than tier 1 from the ability sheet so just max the over powered abilities.   If wait for stuff to get fixed, people will be bored of grinding the same quests and dungeans for AP/SP and have moved on to other games.  So just find two trees with gear and abilities to max.  You wouldn't even need to max the trees aside from needing it to use gear.

Holy trinity - tank, damage, or heals - two trees easy for any 1.

 

What does any of that have to do with TSW not having levels? How does any of that  prove your point that TSW has levels? Fixing bugs in beta is =/= levels.

 That open beta client is like 3 or 4 clients old you know? No your better gear does not insure your victory. gear is too flat.

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by tares

Originally posted by cooper85

Originally posted by CyclopsSlay

If the Proficiencies have discrete steps of point costs, and points are earned killing mobs and questing, how exactly is that different than levels?

 

Call it levels, call it skill points, call it banana peanut-butter sandwiches, it's just a name change and a counter removal.  Asheron's Call had a system of applying exp directly to skills, whether you bought rank 3 sword swinging, or rank 1's of Dagger and Bow, both ran the same exp and the game ticked over a level, you didn't earn the level directly from killing, you earned it by applying exp, so was that level-less?

What was level cap in Asheron? Did it have one? Did you gain HP and power from leveling up? If you did it is very different that what is here. What level would I be if I had 15 points in blood, 10 points in hammers, 24 points in major talismans and 20 points in pistols?

 

Skill point =/= level try as you might to make it so, they are far from the same.

The two max skill point skills do.  This game is tiered with gear so it is the same thing, max out two skills and get level 10 weapons and tailsman and is like being level caped in any MMO. You run hard modes or PvP,  If you PvP or try hard modes w/o max skill level and thus weaker gear you will be under leveled for the content.

Not really.. If you just maxed out 2 weapons and talismans (96 of the 525 abilities) your character will be severly lacking due to lack of synergy.  

Doubt it, some skills are broken over powered.  Just pick those up imo.  It doesnt even seem as tier 3 is stronger than tier 1 from the ability sheet so just max the over powered abilities.   If wait for stuff to get fixed, people will be bored of grinding the same quests and dungeans for AP/SP and have moved on to other games.  So just find two trees with gear and abilities to max.  You wouldn't even need to max the trees aside from needing it to use gear.

Holy trinity - tank, damage, or heals - two trees easy for any 1.

 

What does any of that have to do with TSW not having levels? How does any of that  prove your point that TSW has levels? Fixing bugs in beta is =/= levels.

 

 That open beta client is like 3 or 4 clients old you know? No your better gear does not insure your victory. gear is too flat.

We already know it does have levels, I told you, 2x10 weapon tiers is max. That will also give you the best gear in the game or gear item level.  So it has levels and a max effective level.   You can max other weapons but that is pointless depending on your build but specing a little into a tree if something is overpowered will be fine.

So your argument that there are no levels isn't sound as levels structure the leveling and what you can do by unlocking gear, at rank 10x2 then you can gain item levels.

So this game is just like WoW, Aion, Age of Conan, Everquest, Rift, and every other MMO I can think of in that reguard.

Here is how it could be improved to make it less of a level based game:  Remove gear restrictions, the purpose is simple they want players to grind out earlier content quests to level up a weapon so players think there is more content.

Originally posted by tares

We already know it does have levels, I told you, 2x10 weapon tiers is max. That will also give you the best gear in the game or gear item level.  So it has levels and a max effective level.   You can max other weapons but that is pointless depending on your build but specing a little into a tree if something is overpowered will be fine.

So your argument that there are no levels isn't sound as levels structure the leveling and what you can do by unlocking gear, at rank 10x2 then you can gain item levels.

So this game is just like WoW, Aion, Age of Conan, Everquest, Rift, and every other MMO I can think of in that reguard.

Here is how it could be improved to make it less of a level based game:  Remove gear restrictions, the purpose is simple they want players to grind out earlier content quests to level up a weapon so players think there is more content.

 

Roughly two thirds of the progression is horizontal, giving you more options, which you need to fight of the tougher endgame mobs. The grinding you are referring to is some of the best questing I have seen in a game. You might want to grind through it, but most won't.

What does it matter anyway?

100% level-less isn't possible in rpg. There's progression, but a new character will always have inferior items, gear, etc, etc, ect, than a veteran. Something to set you apart. No new player is going to get a super, elite skill in an mmo right in the starting area. Call it level-less, hidden levels, levels, whatever.

The system is there to follow what i consider the best thing about it, it's skill based. Even if there's hidden levels, it's already better IMO since i don't have to restart a stupid alt to try a different play style.

Levels don't matter in the slightest.  They are just mini objectives and way points in the game.  What matters is if you are playing to level or playing for enjoyment.    If you are playing to level then it's grind. If you are playing for enjoyment and you level along the way it should be an organic process.   Any game can be a grind if you are hitting it for the wrong reasons.  TSW is not leveless it's just doesn't have a traditional progression system. Same with classes. 

Originally posted by fallenlords

Levels don't matter in the slightest.  They are just mini objectives and way points in the game.  What matters is if you are playing to level or playing for enjoyment.    If you are playing to level then it's grind. If you are playing for enjoyment and you level along the way it should be an organic process.   Any game can be a grind if you are hitting it for the wrong reasons.  TSW is not leveless it's just doesn't have a traditional progression system. Same with classes. 

It's levelless. I guy with blue QL4 gear will be more powerful than a person with green QL6 gear. The vertical progression is based around gear. TSW does have vertical progression though.

I would never go back to games with the same systems that I've played a 1000 times before. I ought to try something new. TSW will rock my summer and autumn :)

So TSW is a gear grinder?

Disappointing, I was hoping for something different.

Originally posted by Blackbrrd

Roughly two thirds of the progression is horizontal, giving you more options, which you need to fight of the tougher endgame mobs. The grinding you are referring to is some of the best questing I have seen in a game. You might want to grind through it, but most won't.

Yeah. Pretty much this.  Yes, you will be more powerful later in the game due to having better equipment, but the ability progression is mostly horizontal.  The vertical  progression is much slower, and has much less impact at any given point, compared to actual level based MMO's.  The horizontal progression offers you more versatility, not more power.

You can could focus on only two weapons and ignore the rest, but that would reduce your flexibility, and some bosses/MoBs in the later game will require specific abilities in order to defeat them.  If you are focused very narrowly in your build, you may not be able to beat certain bosses and complete certain quests. 

Originally posted by Kyleran

So TSW is a gear grinder?

Disappointing, I was hoping for something different.

It's got vertical progression, if you don't like games with vertical progression, I suggest you stay with shooters or something...

Anyway, the game it's not particularily grindy as the "endgame" gear progression is horizontal.

Originally posted by Blackbrrd

Originally posted by fallenlords

Levels don't matter in the slightest.  They are just mini objectives and way points in the game.  What matters is if you are playing to level or playing for enjoyment.    If you are playing to level then it's grind. If you are playing for enjoyment and you level along the way it should be an organic process.   Any game can be a grind if you are hitting it for the wrong reasons.  TSW is not leveless it's just doesn't have a traditional progression system. Same with classes. 

It's levelless. I guy with blue QL4 gear will be more powerful than a person with green QL6 gear. The vertical progression is based around gear. TSW does have vertical progression though.

So if it has progression it isn't leveless. It may not have traditional levels. Just as the game isn't classless it may not have traditional classes.