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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why are "cash shops" in subscription based games acceptable?

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  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

6/05/12 7:11:34 PM#81
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Ashen_X

I have never understood the theory that paying for one aspect of a provider's service, or one of a company's products, should entitle the customer to every aspect of the service, or every product that the company produces.

Players want to be citizens, not customers.

I thought players just wany to be 'iconic'... or 'heroes'

/snarfsnarf

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  Hedeon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/27/05
Posts: 909

6/05/12 7:13:34 PM#82

got accepted ever since peoples favorite MMO, introduced a cash shop, and started to defend their purchase of what should just be a part of the game... no matter how insignificant the price may be, its still insane how people can pay 60$ for a game + 15$ access fee, and still defend extra costs, that in return reduces the virtual world to a shopping mall, to have "fun in", while waiting for the next raid/ 1group instance/solo quest line.....instead of having something extra to do, be it crafting or what ever mean you d have to gain said "insignificant items worth 10$+"

  Corehaven

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/11
Posts: 1574

I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

6/05/12 7:15:34 PM#83

When you have a sub fee and a cash shope what you have is a greedy publisher/developer.  Period. 

 

It shows on some part (whether publisher or dev) that one or the other has little respect or appreciation for the customer.  You are nothing more than a source of hopefull and potential income. 

 

One or the other is acceptable.  Both?  Thats just them hitting the players up for money. 

 

Depending on what is in the cash shop to a sub based game and depending on how large the shop is does in fact matter.  Whether there is a sub fee or not.  If its just a very small number of items that are cosmetic in function I give it a pass.  I can live with it.  

 

No its not the most deplorable thing man kind has ever done by a long shot.  But it is greed. 

 

As some have said if you are paying a sub fee you should be covering development.  That development should be given to you for the price of the sub fee.  Anything more locked behind a cash wall may be profitable, and then the problem becomes that developers are spending time creating cash shop items and not putting additional content into the core game, and that is content you've already paid for once.  Its a backwards practice. 

 

Either have a sub fee or a cash shop.  Not both at the same time. 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10571

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

6/05/12 7:19:27 PM#84


Originally posted by Hedeon
got accepted ever since peoples favorite MMO, introduced a cash shop, and started to defend their purchase of what should just be a part of the game... no matter how insignificant the price may be, its still insane how people can pay 60$ for a game + 15$ access fee, and still defend extra costs, that in return reduces the virtual world to a shopping mall, to have "fun in", while waiting for the next raid/ 1group instance/solo quest line.....instead of having something extra to do, be it crafting or what ever mean you d have to gain said "insignificant items worth 10$+"


If people feel that what they get is worth what they spend, then everything is working the way it is supposed to. I don't find this fun and even when I want something that's in an item mall, I can't bring myself to buy anything. That does not mean it's insane for a developer to offer those things. It does not mean it's insane for people to buy those things.

Some people have pointed out that back in the 'good old days', extras just didn't exist. Server transfers didn't exist or they cost a good bit of money. Now, you can buy extras like a flaming pony, but the server transfers are free. This doesn't seem any more wrong that the 'good old days'. It just seems a little different.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

6/05/12 7:28:27 PM#85
Originally posted by Corehaven

When you have a sub fee and a cash shope what you have is a greedy publisher/developer.  Period. 

 

It shows on some part (whether publisher or dev) that one or the other has little respect or appreciation for the customer.  You are nothing more than a source of hopefull and potential income. 

 

How do you know that the developer doesn't need the funds?  Do you have access to their books?  Do you know all their costs?

  Popple

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 156

6/05/12 7:36:12 PM#86
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Corehaven

When you have a sub fee and a cash shope what you have is a greedy publisher/developer.  Period. 

 

It shows on some part (whether publisher or dev) that one or the other has little respect or appreciation for the customer.  You are nothing more than a source of hopefull and potential income. 

 

How do you know that the developer doesn't need the funds?  Do you have access to their books?  Do you know all their costs?

Seems to me the FTP is making billions and PTP is losing millions..As you notice pay to play is all most over..The money is in Free to play with a cash cow with there over price..Enjoy Pay to play while it last.Because people, you dont know how good you had till its gone..

Mod:Add on...

I retired retroactively..Haha

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

6/05/12 7:45:50 PM#87
Originally posted by GTwander

Players want to be citizens, not customers.

I thought players just wany to be 'iconic'... or 'heroes'

/snarfsnarf

Not to get in the way of a good snarfing at my expense, but I think we could probably go off on a long tangent on this topic :)

  Hedeon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/27/05
Posts: 909

6/05/12 8:32:51 PM#88
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Hedeon
got accepted ever since peoples favorite MMO, introduced a cash shop, and started to defend their purchase of what should just be a part of the game... no matter how insignificant the price may be, its still insane how people can pay 60$ for a game + 15$ access fee, and still defend extra costs, that in return reduces the virtual world to a shopping mall, to have "fun in", while waiting for the next raid/ 1group instance/solo quest line.....instead of having something extra to do, be it crafting or what ever mean you d have to gain said "insignificant items worth 10$+"



If people feel that what they get is worth what they spend, then everything is working the way it is supposed to. I don't find this fun and even when I want something that's in an item mall, I can't bring myself to buy anything. That does not mean it's insane for a developer to offer those things. It does not mean it's insane for people to buy those things.

Some people have pointed out that back in the 'good old days', extras just didn't exist. Server transfers didn't exist or they cost a good bit of money. Now, you can buy extras like a flaming pony, but the server transfers are free. This doesn't seem any more wrong that the 'good old days'. It just seems a little different.

 

well since you come onto server transfer....it doesnt even make sense to pay 50$ for a server transfer in newer games, and even if it does...EQ2 were able make it automatic, which means everytime you make a server transfer in EQ2 and pay 50$ it is pretty much 100% profit - mind I dont really mind a company make money on a good script...but that people will pay 50$ is beyond me though, atleast with EQ2 in case....even if you could level a character up for free, and get it re-equipped within 1 sub.

I dont care that 50$ aint alot, it is alot for something that doesnt matter, and people doesnt even find entertaining to do - they wouldnt find it fun if they pay 50$ to pass it.

  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

6/05/12 8:35:11 PM#89

Personally I think free server transfers are BAD.  Its just another step towards removing community from the game.  

  Corehaven

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/11
Posts: 1574

I swear by my pretty floral bonnet, I will end you.

6/05/12 8:38:49 PM#90
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Corehaven

When you have a sub fee and a cash shope what you have is a greedy publisher/developer.  Period. 

 

It shows on some part (whether publisher or dev) that one or the other has little respect or appreciation for the customer.  You are nothing more than a source of hopefull and potential income. 

 

How do you know that the developer doesn't need the funds?  Do you have access to their books?  Do you know all their costs?

 

What am I a charity orginization now?  Hahaha.....no Im not. 

 

If they arent successful enough with sub fees or a cash shop by themselves then they are the problem.  And its their problem.  Handing that problem down to me?  No thanks. 

  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

6/05/12 8:45:14 PM#91
Originally posted by Corehaven
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Corehaven

When you have a sub fee and a cash shope what you have is a greedy publisher/developer.  Period. 

 

It shows on some part (whether publisher or dev) that one or the other has little respect or appreciation for the customer.  You are nothing more than a source of hopefull and potential income. 

 

How do you know that the developer doesn't need the funds?  Do you have access to their books?  Do you know all their costs?

 

What am I a charity orginization now?  Hahaha.....no Im not. 

 

If they arent successful enough with sub fees or a cash shop by themselves then they are the problem.  And its their problem.  Handing that problem down to me?  No thanks. 

But you said it means they are greedy.  You made a statement, I made a counterpoint, and your response is to go off on a tangent that makes no sense anyway.  Sounds like you are upset about an issue you don't even fully understand.

  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

6/05/12 8:59:47 PM#92
Originally posted by Corehaven
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Corehaven

When you have a sub fee and a cash shope what you have is a greedy publisher/developer.  Period. 

 

It shows on some part (whether publisher or dev) that one or the other has little respect or appreciation for the customer.  You are nothing more than a source of hopefull and potential income. 

 

How do you know that the developer doesn't need the funds?  Do you have access to their books?  Do you know all their costs?

 

What am I a charity orginization now?  Hahaha.....no Im not. 

 

If they arent successful enough with sub fees or a cash shop by themselves then they are the problem.  And its their problem.  Handing that problem down to me?  No thanks. 

They arent handing anything off to you.

 

Like every company in the world they are offering a product or service for purchase. People interested pay for it, those not interested dont. Calling a company greedy for charging for access to its, purely optional, luxury service is a bit off.

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1652

6/05/12 10:05:03 PM#93
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Uhwop

I wont pay for an expansion anymore.  To many studios are giving you expansion like content patches without the need to pay for them for me to think that it's not something that I shouldn't expect.  

Besides EvE which is a completely different style of development (and sells game time to be traded/lost in game, earning them significant extra income), name one.

 Rift? MO, DF, Mabinogi, did funcom charge for any AoC expansion?  WAR, LoTRO, Lineage 2, City of Heroes, Aion and...pretty much every game not made by Blizzard or SoE?

Very few MMO's actually charge you for expansions.

 

And for the record, PLEX is about the smartest thing a developer ever did in an MMO.  It cuts down on RMTing, and allows players to play the game without paying each month without CCP ever losing a single sub.  Not that I have any idea what that has to do with expansions though.

  Lissyl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 232

If cosmetics aren't content, why don't people demand a cheaper game done in full grayscale?

6/05/12 10:06:22 PM#94

I don't know.

If my subscription to Cosmo was only the same issue 12 times per year and I had to pay extra for each new article, picture, and cover, I don't think I'd be subscribing much longer.  That's...you know...what a subscription is.  Same with Netflix.  If they charged me every time they added a new movie for me to watch, I don't think I'd be paying them a subscription either.  Or even if they only charged me for the ones I wanted to watch.

 

Someone calls what MMO sub cash shops sell fluff, but to me the collectibles are every bit as much a reason to play as much of the pve content...and more than any pvp content.  For some reason mine should be monetized, but try to monetize a pvp players content and the cries of "pay to win" would overwhelm JFK International.

  Uhwop

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/10
Posts: 1652

6/05/12 10:14:41 PM#95
Originally posted by Lissyl

I don't know.

If my subscription to Cosmo was only the same issue 12 times per year and I had to pay extra for each new article, picture, and cover, I don't think I'd be subscribing much longer.  That's...you know...what a subscription is.  Same with Netflix.  If they charged me every time they added a new movie for me to watch, I don't think I'd be paying them a subscription either.  Or even if they only charged me for the ones I wanted to watch.

 

Someone calls what MMO sub cash shops sell fluff, but to me the collectibles are every bit as much a reason to play as much of the pve content...and more than any pvp content.  For some reason mine should be monetized, but try to monetize a pvp players content and the cries of "pay to win" would overwhelm JFK International.

 You sure you want to use Netflix as an example?

Positive about that?

Want to be able to get ble ray?  Yup, they charge extra for that.

Want more then one movie at a time?  Yup, they charge extra for that.

Want to rent games?  Ok, you can't rent games, yet, but when they do introduce that option you can bet they'll charge extra.

paying 8 dollars a month to get a single movie in the mail plus unlimitted streaming?  Oh wait, I actually paid 8 dollars a month for 2 movies and unlimitted streaming while my friend was paying 12 for one movie and limitted streaming at one point.  When I told him he called netlix and asked why I was getting more service for less, and they said it was a promotional offer to get people to sign up.  He asked whey they aren't offering to keep him from cancelling, they said that's not how it works.  He said no I'm telling you to give me that offer or I'm cancelling, and so they gave him the same deal I was getting.

But then, netflix told me if I wanted to get one movie in the mail along with unlimitted streaming I had to pay an extra 8 dollars because they decided to seperate the two services.

Are you sure you want to use netflix as an example?

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

6/05/12 11:17:38 PM#96
Originally posted by Uhwop
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Uhwop

I wont pay for an expansion anymore.  To many studios are giving you expansion like content patches without the need to pay for them for me to think that it's not something that I shouldn't expect.  

Besides EvE which is a completely different style of development (and sells game time to be traded/lost in game, earning them significant extra income), name one.

 Rift? MO, DF, Mabinogi, did funcom charge for any AoC expansion?  WAR, LoTRO, Lineage 2, City of Heroes, Aion and...pretty much every game not made by Blizzard or SoE?

Very few MMO's actually charge you for expansions.

 

And for the record, PLEX is about the smartest thing a developer ever did in an MMO.  It cuts down on RMTing, and allows players to play the game without paying each month without CCP ever losing a single sub.  Not that I have any idea what that has to do with expansions though.

I agree, there is actually quite a few companies that don't charge for expansions.  Admittedly coh did charge for cov and praetoria (think it was called that) but they had 3-4 game updates a year with a ton of content added free.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Searias

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 666

6/06/12 12:11:08 AM#97
I am fine with cash shops + sub fees. It cost a lot more money to develop an mmo now a days compared to what it did back in the day and also with all the competition in the market and the limited amount of consumers, it's hard to predict if they would make enough money to cover costs. Plus, sub fees has not changed in a very long time, but wages have increased and resources cost a lot more money now than they did back in the day, the money has to come from somewhere to cover that also.

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  FearGX

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/09
Posts: 320

6/06/12 12:32:11 AM#98
The companies simply get greedy, and if they can get away with selling you content via a cash shop they will. Blizzard is a number 1 example. They sell real high quality mounts and pets now for money which is quite disgusting of them. I can understand a cash shop for F2P games, I am really for legit cash shops that contain cosmetic clothing, but any cash shop you can buy power or inventory/bank space is a no no for me. Any P2P sub MMO with Expansions and Selling cash shop mounts, pets or even inventory space on the side should be ashamed of themselves.
  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3546

6/06/12 12:35:24 AM#99

People pay for lots of things. Whether it is 'acceptable' or not is up to each person.

Yes, I am one of those people who will gladly pay for a mount on the Blizz store or w/e.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Cod_Eye

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/04/09
Posts: 1010

6/06/12 2:10:03 AM#100
Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Just wondering why people readily accept games that have "Cash Shops" in products that already require a monthly fee AND paid expansions?

 

Do people not realize that you're paying the developers to create content with your monthly sub only to resell that content you ALREADY PAID FOR via the cash shop? I shouldn't have to buy the box, pay a monthly fee, pay for expansions, AND pay for extra "fluff" content that i've already paid for to begin with!!!

 

It's like paying to see a movie, and once you're inside they ask you to buy a seat to watch the movie. Sure, you could stand in the back and watch it, but by the time the movie is over your legs are jelly and your face is stuck to that disgusting floor because the movie dragged on for 2hrs.

 

Don't get me wrong. CCP are one of the best companies running an MMO nowadays. Their product may not be very popular, but they certainly know how to run an MMO. $20 "digital box" price (that's been on sale recently down to $6), $15/month fee, with FREE expansions & they even doubled-back on their planned cash shop for "fluff" avatar clothing because they listened to the players who said "NO!". 

 

I'm also an advocate for monthly fees over "Free to Play", however that's another box of chocolates :]!

Because most people are dumb and have no value of money.  Some people cannot grasp real life and find cash shop items comforting and makes them feel special.  Other people think their MMO world is better than the real world and will live in it and be completely oblivious to their real live needs or the needs of people and family around them.

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