I'm a gamer. I may play only popular games and not stick to a genre, but I do play tons of them. Games I'm currently playing are RIFT, SWTOR, BF3, D3, SC2 and some more...

One of the many things that I notice is the very very very bad customer service and the money leeching attitude there is in this industry. People play MMORPGs for the content, the world to explore, and they pay $15 a month to do that? Lets make an expansion and get box revenue for those! FPS? Let's make 10 packs of DLC and throw them at you, charging over triple the original games price for the complete game. Game incomplete? Let's just add some DLC and make extra money.

I'm not pissed that I cannot play the games that I want because of a limited budget, I'm pissed because I have to extend my budget for games that I already own to keep playing. I do not disagree with a buy to play game to bring out something like an expansion after a year or maybe two. This can be reasonably priced and leads me to play the game again for tons of hours. But the way we, gamers, are being treated as cashcows by companies (and here I want to explicitely name EA) to play the games we like, that's just wrong.

The current trend in MMORPGs is to pay for a box price, pay for a sub, pay for an expansion and maybe even a cash shop. Then there's fancy items coming with the Collectors Edition, etc. Here I like the approach Trion is taking (a company that does get it, even if it's after a while) with fast content updates, the claim to never let people pay for extra content, because they're paying a monthly sub (and I will change my opinion if they charge more than one month of gametime for their expansion, this I still find acceptable) and, last but not least, they lowered their box price to almost zero. You can buy the game, with a month of gametime, for about 20 euros. That comes down to a 7,50 for the game. This comes after launch, but then again they didn't charge 60 or 80 euros, but 40 for a head-start with vanity items pre-order of a subscription game. I don't say I like that, but it was kinder than the higher priced ones.

Buy to play, most non-MMO games are that way. With DLC appearing very often and with different amount of content, often these games also have some sort of cash shop. I know that keeping the servers/services up costs money and adding content costs money, but, and here I take the example of Battlefield 3, bringing out 4 DLC packs in 1 year, costing as much as the game itself, only to add 4 maps, a few vehicles and whats not every time, is just outrageous.

Free to play with cash shop is another option. I won't go there, as these are either pay for content, pay to win or pay for vanity items. This is a solid business model and if there is no requirement to pay, unless you need it to win, I'm all for it. The way of LOTRO with paying for content makes sense and their prices are reasonable (not commenting on the limited inventory, etc.).

In between is freemium, which can also be done right. Here I would like to say Aion, which has gone freemium. You pay for instance cooldowns and veteran rewards, and generally to support the game. This is also another solid business model, where they just limited the free to play and I must say I can't complain about that. The addition of the cash shop might be a slight turnoff for a premium, subscription-paying member, as they pay already.

Companies have to make profit and the current trend is not to do that on the long-term, but directly. I think I've covered most payment options and I must say some of them (free to play/freemium/subscription without paying for content) are fair, but a lot of times I get the feeling that I'm just another wallet. In between the bad customer service, high box prices (which makes the entrance level for new gamers even higher), DLCs and paying for expansions whilst also paying a sub I think a major attitude is needed in this industry.

As long as you (and everyone else) keep paying.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

As long as you (and everyone else) keep paying.

that about sums it up right there.

Market saturation reduces profits.  High development costs reduce profits.

End result... pay more, get less.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

As long as you (and everyone else) keep paying.

That's true, but there's also a dilemma. I play these games for enjoyment and I want to play the total games. To get screwed out of my enjoyment just to make a point is not intuitive. I've decided for myself never to pay for any new EA games, as they are the worst in this aspect.

And I don't think just the money matters. When people see a lot of unhappy customers, but still people that want to play the game, they will eventually listen. It might take a while, but not only drop in revenue is what should make them listen. Voicing your concerns and the threat of lots of people walking away (with their money, yeah I know) can do the trick.

Originally posted by Freezzo

Originally posted by zymurgeist

As long as you (and everyone else) keep paying.

That's true, but there's also a dilemma. I play these games for enjoyment and I want to play the total games. To get screwed out of my enjoyment just to make a point is not intuitive. I've decided for myself never to pay for any new EA games, as they are the worst in this aspect.

And I don't think just the money matters. When people see a lot of unhappy customers, but still people that want to play the game, they will eventually listen. It might take a while, but not only drop in revenue is what should make them listen. Voicing your concerns and the threat of lots of people walking away (with their money, yeah I know) can do the trick.

 No I think it's pretty much only money that matters. I've never heard of a CEO saying anything like  "Sure we're making a ton of money but our customers aren't happy. Lets reduce our profits and see if that helps."

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 No I think it's pretty much only money that matters. I've never heard of a CEO saying anything like  "Sure we're making a ton of money but our customers aren't happy. Lets reduce our profits and see if that helps."

I can't remember the game, but there was one where they would hire back tons of people and make the game more appealing. They threw away profit to add content and keep their playerbase. The game was in vast decline, but eventually player numbers started growing again. It sounds fishy without source, but it has happened. This is what I meant with an attitude change that's needed. They should start looking at the long term.

On a side note: looking at the short term kills the whole economy. People just want a nice portfolio and they focus on the short-term to enrich their reference list. (mostly high-up managers).

Originally posted by Freezzo

The current trend in MMORPGs is to pay for a box price, pay for a sub, pay for an expansion and maybe even a cash shop. Then there's fancy items coming with the Collectors Edition, etc.

Well, no.. it isn't really... The current trend is F2P. Box + Sub is obviously unfashionable right now due to the heavy handed promotion of the F2P model and lack of critical analysis of it across the gaming sites (I will leave you to ask why that is...).

That being said, Box + Sub is the model I prefer for a MMORPG, fashionable or not.

I consider it a clear honest way of pricing, and one that rewards Play to Achieve gaming.

I also consider £10 a month for the hours I spend in a game like this extremely good value (considering the original box probably lasts me longer then pretty much any solo game I buy for the same value).

 

Here I like the approach Trion is taking (a company that does get it, even if it's after a while) with fast content updates

Trion do subbing right, this I agree with.

Everyone that cries out 'but they need to make money!!' when defending eploitative drip feed cash shops with obscured pricing needs to step back and look at this game and recognise the fact that it is MAKING MONEY.

Enough money in fact to keep strong live development going at that.

I wish more games would follow the Trion/ Rift route.  

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Originally posted by Freezzo

Originally posted by zymurgeist

As long as you (and everyone else) keep paying.

That's true, but there's also a dilemma. I play these games for enjoyment and I want to play the total games. To get screwed out of my enjoyment just to make a point is not intuitive. I've decided for myself never to pay for any new EA games, as they are the worst in this aspect.

And I don't think just the money matters. When people see a lot of unhappy customers, but still people that want to play the game, they will eventually listen. It might take a while, but not only drop in revenue is what should make them listen. Voicing your concerns and the threat of lots of people walking away (with their money, yeah I know) can do the trick.

 No I think it's pretty much only money that matters. I've never heard of a CEO saying anything like  "Sure we're making a ton of money but our customers aren't happy. Lets reduce our profits and see if that helps."

Maybe not in those words, but I'd say CD Projekt is close to that philosophy, but in a different way. They are like "Look we made a lot of money on Witcher 2, let's give the enhanced edition to everyone that bought the game, for free", when they could have easily used DLC for the extra content they added. That's one of the reasons why I belive that they have big sales even while not employing any DRM and also because they bring out quality products.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Freezzo

The current trend in MMORPGs is to pay for a box price, pay for a sub, pay for an expansion and maybe even a cash shop. Then there's fancy items coming with the Collectors Edition, etc.

Well, no.. it isn't really... The current trend is F2P. Box + Sub is obviously unfashionable right now due to the heavy handed promotion of the model and lack of critical analysis of it across the gaming sites (I will leave you to ask why that is...).

That being said, Box + Sub is the model I prefer for a MMORPG, fashionable or not.

I consider it a clear honest way of pricing, and one that rewards Play to Achieve gaming.

I also consider £10 a month for the hours I spend in a game like this extremely good value (considering the original box probably lasts me longer then pretty much any solo game I buy for the same value).

 

Here I like the approach Trion is taking (a company that does get it, even if it's after a while) with fast content updates

Trion do subbing right, this I agree with.

Everyone that cries out 'but they need to make money!!' when defending eploitative drip feed cash shops with obscured pricing needs to step back and look at this game and recognise the fact that it is MAKING MONEY.

Enough money in fact to keep strong live development going at that.

I wish more games would follow the Trion/ Rift route.  

Well, with current trend I meant more the fact that you have to pay for everything. This does fit in the free to play you say is the trend.

I must say the sub model is an honest model, but generally it goes like this: pay monthly, pay for extra content in an expansion. This makes the sub model irrelevant, because the one or two raids/endgame things you get between expansions is hardly worth paying that much money for. That's why I specifically took Trion, as they do get it right.

Originally posted by Freezzo

I wish more games would follow the Trion/ Rift route.  

Well, with current trend I meant more the fact that you have to pay for everything. This does fit in the free to play you say is the trend.

I must say the sub model is an honest model, but generally it goes like this: pay monthly, pay for extra content in an expansion. This makes the sub model irrelevant, because the one or two raids/endgame things you get between expansions is hardly worth paying that much money for. That's why I specifically took Trion, as they do get it right.

Yeah, I get what you're saying now. :)

You are right ofc, the box+sub + cash shop+ expac quadruple dip model is just outright taking the piss.

As the other guy said though, as long at the pigs have their noses in the troughs the farmer will keep pouring in the feed :/

All you can do on a personal level is apply your feelings to how you spend your own cash.

Is the Rift expansion free?

Originally posted by Freezzo

I'm a gamer. I may play only popular games and not stick to a genre, but I do play tons of them. Games I'm currently playing are RIFT, SWTOR, BF3, D3, SC2 and some more...

One of the many things that I notice is the very very very bad customer service and the money leeching attitude there is in this industry. People play MMORPGs for the content, the world to explore, and they pay $15 a month to do that? Lets make an expansion and get box revenue for those! FPS? Let's make 10 packs of DLC and throw them at you, charging over triple the original games price for the complete game. Game incomplete? Let's just add some DLC and make extra money.

I'm not pissed that I cannot play the games that I want because of a limited budget, I'm pissed because I have to extend my budget for games that I already own to keep playing. I do not disagree with a buy to play game to bring out something like an expansion after a year or maybe two. This can be reasonably priced and leads me to play the game again for tons of hours. But the way we, gamers, are being treated as cashcows by companies (and here I want to explicitely name EA) to play the games we like, that's just wrong.

The current trend in MMORPGs is to pay for a box price, pay for a sub, pay for an expansion and maybe even a cash shop. Then there's fancy items coming with the Collectors Edition, etc. Here I like the approach Trion is taking (a company that does get it, even if it's after a while) with fast content updates, the claim to never let people pay for extra content, because they're paying a monthly sub (and I will change my opinion if they charge more than one month of gametime for their expansion, this I still find acceptable) and, last but not least, they lowered their box price to almost zero. You can buy the game, with a month of gametime, for about 20 euros. That comes down to a 7,50 for the game. This comes after launch, but then again they didn't charge 60 or 80 euros, but 40 for a head-start with vanity items pre-order of a subscription game. I don't say I like that, but it was kinder than the higher priced ones.

Buy to play, most non-MMO games are that way. With DLC appearing very often and with different amount of content, often these games also have some sort of cash shop. I know that keeping the servers/services up costs money and adding content costs money, but, and here I take the example of Battlefield 3, bringing out 4 DLC packs in 1 year, costing as much as the game itself, only to add 4 maps, a few vehicles and whats not every time, is just outrageous.

Free to play with cash shop is another option. I won't go there, as these are either pay for content, pay to win or pay for vanity items. This is a solid business model and if there is no requirement to pay, unless you need it to win, I'm all for it. The way of LOTRO with paying for content makes sense and their prices are reasonable (not commenting on the limited inventory, etc.).

In between is freemium, which can also be done right. Here I would like to say Aion, which has gone freemium. You pay for instance cooldowns and veteran rewards, and generally to support the game. This is also another solid business model, where they just limited the free to play and I must say I can't complain about that. The addition of the cash shop might be a slight turnoff for a premium, subscription-paying member, as they pay already.

Companies have to make profit and the current trend is not to do that on the long-term, but directly. I think I've covered most payment options and I must say some of them (free to play/freemium/subscription without paying for content) are fair, but a lot of times I get the feeling that I'm just another wallet. In between the bad customer service, high box prices (which makes the entrance level for new gamers even higher), DLCs and paying for expansions whilst also paying a sub I think a major attitude is needed in this industry.

Honestly, I've no clue what you are trying to tell us here?!?

What I can tell from your post is that maybe you're making your own problems?

First, your saying that you are playing tons of games. Why?

Unless you suffer from ADD and are unemployed this seems weird. Not judging, just saying.

So, maybe you should try cutting back?

See, this was me some 11 years ago: I was always looking for the next "bestest" game.

Then, what happened was a bit weird: as I said I was always looking for games to play/buy, which in turn meant I kept buying all the mags.

Now, in one mag there was a great review about a new game. But as it turned out it was an MMORPG and it was only released in the US.

Now, my attitide towards MMORPGs had always been "why buy something AND then pay a monthly fee extra just to play it? If I play Quake3 online I don't have to do that! If I play Baldur's Gate with friends over LAN I don't have to do that!"

But then, somehow, I got lucky and ended up in the European beta for this game. First closed, then open. And I loved it! And I started to rethink my position: So, rather then spend some $60 on a new game which maybe lasts me some 60-120 hours or is maybe shit and a complete waste of money, here I have a game I know I like, I know is fun for me and I can play for a long, long time simply because it ain't now "rush thru" game - remember, this was before WoW when games were re-cut to be suited for the casual gamer who could only invest a few hours per week yet still wanted to be top level. - and as was and is the norm updates are made that may effect the gameplay i.e. new abilities, new location, new quests, etc., and all I have to do is pay $15?

Count me in!

So, up to this point I prefer to play MMOs. Of course I have had time where I spread out, looking for the next "bestest" MMO, also found F2Ps that were a nice addition because they are free-ish, but yeah, in general I'm trying to stick to 1 or 2 games.

Maybe you should try the same? And then go from there to see how things go with costs, etc?

Originally posted by Freezzo

I'm a gamer. I may play only popular games and not stick to a genre, but I do play tons of them. Games I'm currently playing are RIFT, SWTOR, BF3, D3, SC2 and some more...

One of the many things that I notice is the very very very bad customer service and the money leeching attitude there is in this industry. People play MMORPGs for the content, the world to explore, and they pay $15 a month to do that? Lets make an expansion and get box revenue for those! FPS? Let's make 10 packs of DLC and throw them at you, charging over triple the original games price for the complete game. Game incomplete? Let's just add some DLC and make extra money.

I'm not pissed that I cannot play the games that I want because of a limited budget, I'm pissed because I have to extend my budget for games that I already own to keep playing. I do not disagree with a buy to play game to bring out something like an expansion after a year or maybe two. This can be reasonably priced and leads me to play the game again for tons of hours. But the way we, gamers, are being treated as cashcows by companies (and here I want to explicitely name EA) to play the games we like, that's just wrong.

The current trend in MMORPGs is to pay for a box price, pay for a sub, pay for an expansion and maybe even a cash shop. Then there's fancy items coming with the Collectors Edition, etc. Here I like the approach Trion is taking (a company that does get it, even if it's after a while) with fast content updates, the claim to never let people pay for extra content, because they're paying a monthly sub (and I will change my opinion if they charge more than one month of gametime for their expansion, this I still find acceptable) and, last but not least, they lowered their box price to almost zero. You can buy the game, with a month of gametime, for about 20 euros. That comes down to a 7,50 for the game. This comes after launch, but then again they didn't charge 60 or 80 euros, but 40 for a head-start with vanity items pre-order of a subscription game. I don't say I like that, but it was kinder than the higher priced ones.

Buy to play, most non-MMO games are that way. With DLC appearing very often and with different amount of content, often these games also have some sort of cash shop. I know that keeping the servers/services up costs money and adding content costs money, but, and here I take the example of Battlefield 3, bringing out 4 DLC packs in 1 year, costing as much as the game itself, only to add 4 maps, a few vehicles and whats not every time, is just outrageous.

Free to play with cash shop is another option. I won't go there, as these are either pay for content, pay to win or pay for vanity items. This is a solid business model and if there is no requirement to pay, unless you need it to win, I'm all for it. The way of LOTRO with paying for content makes sense and their prices are reasonable (not commenting on the limited inventory, etc.).

In between is freemium, which can also be done right. Here I would like to say Aion, which has gone freemium. You pay for instance cooldowns and veteran rewards, and generally to support the game. This is also another solid business model, where they just limited the free to play and I must say I can't complain about that. The addition of the cash shop might be a slight turnoff for a premium, subscription-paying member, as they pay already.

Companies have to make profit and the current trend is not to do that on the long-term, but directly. I think I've covered most payment options and I must say some of them (free to play/freemium/subscription without paying for content) are fair, but a lot of times I get the feeling that I'm just another wallet. In between the bad customer service, high box prices (which makes the entrance level for new gamers even higher), DLCs and paying for expansions whilst also paying a sub I think a major attitude is needed in this industry.

It depends. Trion has great customer service and have no complaints with them. I haven't had a problem with Blizzard either. I think you need to divorce your attitude of 'instant gratification' when it comes to service and get back to reality. It sometimes takes a while to trace things down and one needs to understand that.

The problem I have is it seems many MMO players have this attitude that the game is all about them and no one else. It is not - get over yourself (number one). Number 2 - games like Rift and D3 have huge amounts of people playing and it takes a while to track things and, 'HEAVEN FORBID' you may have to do some follow up. ALso, these companies have moved people on to right their next big hit - game companies are dynamic not static.

Customer service in the gaming industry is no different than customer service anywhere else.

As far as you being 'the wallet'. As an example GW2 has been in development for 5 years now and most of Arena.net has been working on it. They have investors that have put up money to write the game. Don't you think THEY deserve to get paid back? Just think about, say 80 people working 5 yrs at 50K a year, with health benefits AND everything to support them (buildings, electricity, PC's, etc). It all adds up pretty fast.

Games that are Freemium, like Allods Online, are OK but they don't really do anything for me and I played Allods for a year. The developer gets money through the cash shop and if you calculate how much you really spend there monthly (really look at it) it is more than a monthly fee. In order to really enjoy the game, you HAVE to buy stuff or you are not competitive.

Non-MMO's are like big instanced games, not persistant and not'living'. I don't think you get that. Also, all the servers that are needed to support the games, who does the maintenance on them?

I think you need to rethink your argument. You only represented one side and not that well, I might add.

Originally posted by Freezzo

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 No I think it's pretty much only money that matters. I've never heard of a CEO saying anything like  "Sure we're making a ton of money but our customers aren't happy. Lets reduce our profits and see if that helps."

I can't remember the game, but there was one where they would hire back tons of people and make the game more appealing. They threw away profit to add content and keep their playerbase. The game was in vast decline, but eventually player numbers started growing again. It sounds fishy without source, but it has happened. This is what I meant with an attitude change that's needed. They should start looking at the long term.

On a side note: looking at the short term kills the whole economy. People just want a nice portfolio and they focus on the short-term to enrich their reference list. (mostly high-up managers).

ARGH, I remember this happening so I will back you up on this, but I cant for the life of me(or google) the name of the game it was with. The basically said screw you to the publishers and did things to make the PLAYERS happy 

Originally posted by Freezzo

Originally posted by zymurgeist

As long as you (and everyone else) keep paying.

That's true, but there's also a dilemma. I play these games for enjoyment and I want to play the total games. To get screwed out of my enjoyment just to make a point is not intuitive.

You see nothing wrong with that statement?

Originally posted by stragen001

Originally posted by Freezzo

Originally posted by zymurgeist

 No I think it's pretty much only money that matters. I've never heard of a CEO saying anything like  "Sure we're making a ton of money but our customers aren't happy. Lets reduce our profits and see if that helps."

I can't remember the game, but there was one where they would hire back tons of people and make the game more appealing. They threw away profit to add content and keep their playerbase. The game was in vast decline, but eventually player numbers started growing again. It sounds fishy without source, but it has happened. This is what I meant with an attitude change that's needed. They should start looking at the long term.

On a side note: looking at the short term kills the whole economy. People just want a nice portfolio and they focus on the short-term to enrich their reference list. (mostly high-up managers).

ARGH, I remember this happening so I will back you up on this, but I cant for the life of me(or google) the name of the game it was with. The basically said screw you to the publishers and did things to make the PLAYERS happy 

 Some companies, and people, take a longer view than others. They rarely do it with the expectation of losing money though. You have to feed the cash cow and goodwill gestures do buy you some time. The point is the more people reward short sightedness the more shortsighted everyone becomes.

Originally posted by Freezzo

Originally posted by zymurgeist

As long as you (and everyone else) keep paying.

That's true, but there's also a dilemma. I play these games for enjoyment and I want to play the total games. To get screwed out of my enjoyment just to make a point is not intuitive. I've decided for myself never to pay for any new EA games, as they are the worst in this aspect.

And I don't think just the money matters. When people see a lot of unhappy customers, but still people that want to play the game, they will eventually listen. It might take a while, but not only drop in revenue is what should make them listen. Voicing your concerns and the threat of lots of people walking away (with their money, yeah I know) can do the trick.

There is no delima. Its called being an adult and a responsible consumer. Once you learn alittle self controll not buying games when you dont agree with the busness practices becomes pretty easy.

Originally posted by botrytis

It depends. Trion has great customer service and have no complaints with them. I haven't had a problem with Blizzard either. I think you need to divorce your attitude of 'instant gratification' when it comes to service and get back to reality. It sometimes takes a while to trace things down and one needs to understand that.

I think you need to rethink your argument. You only represented one side and not that well, I might add.

Originally posted by Trol1

First, your saying that you are playing tons of games. Why?

Unless you suffer from ADD and are unemployed this seems weird. Not judging, just saying.

So, maybe you should try cutting back?

So, up to this point I prefer to play MMOs. Of course I have had time where I spread out, looking for the next "bestest" MMO, also found F2Ps that were a nice addition because they are free-ish, but yeah, in general I'm trying to stick to 1 or 2 games.

Maybe you should try the same? And then go from there to see how things go with costs, etc?

@botrytis: First of all I might have some aspects of that instant gratification. I play D3 and BF3 for that mood. However I do expect to get my money's worth out of a game. So when I pay 15 a month just to play, it's not doing it for me. Just bugfixes aren't content in my book. It's come down to pay or don't play (for the MMOs I'm interested in).

As for the one-sided argument I can say only the following: I'm just one person and I gave my own opinion based on my own experience. I posted it here to start a discussion and perhaps get other insights.

@Trol1: I play multiplayer games only, as I just love playing with others. This means those games last quite a while and they are in tons of different genres. I tend to play games for quite a big chunk of the day and I do that because I don't like the general trend of going to a club or getting drunk. One can only have so many good conversations in a week. 

Also I'm not looking for the best MMO/game out there. I played battlefield 1942 for my fps fix until BF3 came out, so that game lasted quite a while. But in the MMO genre I'm looking for a game for me. WoW didn't have the community, RIFT didn't have the vast world, currently I play SWTOR, but that ends when I get bored of the story, because the gameplay isn't exciting. Once I find a game that suits me I'll stick (as I've done in the past, but quit after a few years because it was time to move on).

I enjoy game in most forms and genres, that's why I play so many, even if it's for 2-4 hours a week. I'm restless and haven't found my 'home' as people say it in a game yet. This is mostly to blame because I can't give a rats ass about MMO gear progression ^^

Originally posted by xenogias

Originally posted by Freezzo

Originally posted by zymurgeist

As long as you (and everyone else) keep paying.

That's true, but there's also a dilemma. I play these games for enjoyment and I want to play the total games. To get screwed out of my enjoyment just to make a point is not intuitive. I've decided for myself never to pay for any new EA games, as they are the worst in this aspect.

And I don't think just the money matters. When people see a lot of unhappy customers, but still people that want to play the game, they will eventually listen. It might take a while, but not only drop in revenue is what should make them listen. Voicing your concerns and the threat of lots of people walking away (with their money, yeah I know) can do the trick.

There is no delima. Its called being an adult and a responsible consumer. Once you learn alittle self controll not buying games when you dont agree with the busness practices becomes pretty easy.

May I ask you to step down from your views on my personal spending habits? If I say spending money on food you throw out is irresponsible, that would mean I call about 95% of non-third world adult society irresponsible. I buy games for the games, although eventually I will stop buying.