I am going to use Ultima Online as the perfect example for taking a single player game and turning it into a mmorpg.

Origin took the single player game itself, the gameplay, the storyline, the mechanics, the engine, art work, and ported/morphed it into online play.

And this is why it was sucessful from the beginning. Because players loved the Ultima Series, they loved how it functioned, were familiar in how it worked. So when they got a hold of an online version, it blew them away!!

You cannot take a great single player game like TES series and totally revamp the gameplay/mechanics/physics etc into an online version. Something unfamilair to your exisiting player base.  It will not be an Elder Scrolls game then, at least not to its followers.

The creaters need to grow some balls and turn TES, LITERALLY, into a mmorpg, not changing anything but for the most part the ability for multiple players to coexist in the world. This will be what the players want. They want "Skyrim Online". And if you cannot deliver that from a technical perspective, do NOT clone WoW/GW2 with TES art/story line. That will be horrible. Anything less will be complete failure in my opinion...

Originally posted by Shadanwolf

In the US its still lawful to invest your money the way you see fit.Game companys can make games the way they want and be rewarded or punished depending what consumers determine.

GEESH

 

Do you call car companys because almost ever years modles look like the previous years ?

New toilet paper brands..there white and on rolls....shall we start to ruminate about  that too !

 

In the US we have free enterprise.Take a breath and lets see what kind of game they make...then vote.

 Now there's an awesome analogy!  Perhaps the government can issue a bailout for the MMO industry because it refuses to inovate and progress the genre instead of making the exact same thing over and over.

Or did you forget that the reason most of the US car compnaies did in fact fail, is because they refused to move forward in a time when people were losing jobs and had to be more aware of how they spent there money.  I guess the US care industry wasn't critisized for continuing to push SUV, and cars with big engines, while foreign car companies were putting focus on making more fuel efficient vehicles that didn't cost an arm and a log to buy or put gas in?

I suppose we can't see a correlation here?  ZeniMax sounds like Chevy showing up to a press conference in an SUV and telling the world they won't apologize for producing more large trucks and SUV that people won't buy or can't afford, and we'll just keep on doing it; in fact here's yet another suburban no one wants.

Perfect analogy you chose to use there guy.

Originally posted by Boraell

I find it very amusing that because they say "its an MMO, it wont be like skyrim" all the haters somehow read that as them saying it will be a WoW clone, despite no mention of WoW anywhere... theres probably something freudian in there somewhere:P

There's actually plenty of information contrary to what you've posted, that does in fact indicate that this game is going to be as themepark as the next.

I am unapologetic about telling the makers of TESO to go get stuffed.

As an ES fan, I do not see the point in making an "ES MMO" when they are taking all of the game elements of an ES game out and making a WoW clone, which they have explicitly stated they are doing...

The genre does not need or want another "clone".

Were they not paying attention to TOR?

Originally posted by Boraell

I find it very amusing that because they say "its an MMO, it wont be like skyrim" all the haters somehow read that as them saying it will be a WoW clone, despite no mention of WoW anywhere... theres probably something freudian in there somewhere:P

 I find it amusing that there is a GI article in which those same guys make a comparison to features in ESO and WoW like a dozen times and still people like you insist on telling everyone it's not going to be anything like WoW.  Even though the devs have already said it will.

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Shadanwolf

In the US its still lawful to invest your money the way you see fit.Game companys can make games the way they want and be rewarded or punished depending what consumers determine.

GEESH

 

Do you call car companys because almost ever years modles look like the previous years ?

New toilet paper brands..there white and on rolls....shall we start to ruminate about  that too !

 

In the US we have free enterprise.Take a breath and lets see what kind of game they make...then vote.

 Now there's an awesome analogy!  Perhaps the government can issue a bailout for the MMO industry because it refuses to inovate and progress the genre instead of making the exact same thing over and over.

Or did you forget that the reason most of the US car compnaies did in fact fail, is because they refused to move forward in a time when people were losing jobs and had to be more aware of how they spent there money.  I guess the US care industry wasn't critisized for continuing to push SUV, and cars with big engines, while foreign car companies were putting focus on making more fuel efficient vehicles that didn't cost an arm and a log to buy or put gas in?

I suppose we can't see a correlation here?  ZeniMax sounds like Chevy showing up to a press conference in an SUV and telling the world they won't apologize for producing more large trucks and SUV that people won't buy or can't afford, and we'll just keep on doing it; in fact here's yet another suburban no one wants.

Perfect analogy you chose to use there guy.

This is likely the best response I have seen in a forum ever.

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Boraell

I find it very amusing that because they say "its an MMO, it wont be like skyrim" all the haters somehow read that as them saying it will be a WoW clone, despite no mention of WoW anywhere... theres probably something freudian in there somewhere:P

 I find it amusing that there is a GI article in which those same guys make a comparison to features in ESO and WoW like a dozen times and still people like you insist on telling everyone it's not going to be anything like WoW.  Even though the devs have already said it will.

Actually no they havent, the reviewer is the only person who mentions WoW, I belive it is mentioned 3 times out of 15 pages. 'People like you' should try getting your facts staight instead of jumping straight in with the lynch mob.

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Yeah, this isn't news to me. The individual I know working for development on TES has been pretty unapologetic every time we've spoken about the project. I've posted more details regarding what I've heard from this person, and if you're interested you can find that post here:

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5024735#5024735

Well, here's one way to think about it:

Given what you said about expanding the universe it seems that they aren't interested in making "Skyrim Online" or "Morrowind Online" but instead want to reach out to themepark mmo players and offer a version of Elderscrolls specifically for their demographic.

Which actually makes sense.

They aren't saying "hey, there are all these Elderscrolls fans, let's make them an online game". They are saying "hey, there are all these mmo players, lets' bring them the Elderscrolls lore in a medium they are comfortable with.

Yeah, but the SRPG fans have been saying since Morrowind, "man, wouldn't it be fucking awesome if this game had a multiplayer function!" Who gives a shit about the themepark audience? OH WAIT! Production and development companies do, because they know these mouth breathers spend money on every piece of garbage that gets shoved out the god damn door! So, sure, alienate the customers who've stuck with your product, who've been dreaming of an enhanced version of the single player games, so you can make a quick buck. Good work.

yeah thats' a bit too cyncial for my taste.

I'm not really into insulting people for liking things that are not my taste. Sort of a habit I developed over the years.

In any case, Bethesda isn't making the game, and aren't interested in Multi-Player.

Zenimax wanted an mmo and probably thought that they own a rich IP that could be used.

I hate to say it but his is more about expanding their IP to different markets (so to speak).

A multi-player Morrowind was just never going to happen Becasue Bethesda really believes in their single player game. Quite frankly, kudos to them for sticking to their guns. However, as cynical as your post sounds there is a ring of truth to part of it. They know the mmo market is a huge market and for those companies that can pull it off, they can be financially successful.

They are no looking at it as alienating customers. If anyting they are thinking that the mmorpg demographic has different people than the single player game demographic and they want to reach out to them.

they way they would alienate their customers was to cease making the single player games and ONLY make multi-player.

Originally posted by Rophez

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

The problem I am having is less that about what they are not doing development wise my issue is the attitude. If someone feels they can not make a game like Darkfall or that there are some limitations to Darkfall in a given context then fine, man up and say what they are. Dont pretend like the game doesnt exist and hasnt already done what they are saying cant be done.

They are class A f8ck ups

Two things:

1 - No one has tried the combat in TESO yet.  It may actually be really fun and have some seriously revolutionary play.  Maybe not, but it might.

2 - Has Darkfall Online successfully had 200+ players in combat with no lag that interferes with their non-tab target combat?  I seriously don't know.  Do they have massive scale combat like that?

You know, I'd love to believe that tomorrow I'd wake up and suddenly we have world peace too.  But I think we're done with 'might'.  What has 'might' given us so far?  SWTOR?  Aion?  Rift?   I am personally sick of what "might" be.  While I know it's going to continue, this idea that everytime someone puts out a game with a title we all knew and loved as a single player game or popular fanchise, we all flock to it with our dollars in hand salivating at the chance to play it no matter how many people said there were problems or that the game had no substance or that it was doomed to fail.  It doesn't even matter how much proof is presented.  At the end of the day you're still going out there to buy it...because maybe...just maybe THIS one will be different...yet it never is.

I think it's time that rather than us having to prove to the game companies and devs what is wrong with  their concepts after handing them a ridiculous amount of money, that they prove to us first that their concepts and designs and work on a given game is worth our time, effort, and money to even bother investing in.  (all of which gets wasted in these previous cookie cutter MMOs..especially time which was invested for nothing..)

But of course that...much like "might"...is a pipe dream.  As long as their is money to be made these guys are going to continue to tow the party line that is WoW clone MMOs.

Originally posted by BigCountry

I am going to use Ultima Online as the perfect example for taking a single player game and turning it into a mmorpg.

 

Origin took the single player game itself, the gameplay, the storyline, the mechanics, the engine, art work, and ported/morphed it into online play.

 

And this is why it was sucessful from the beginning. Because players loved the Ultima Series, they loved how it functioned, were familiar in how it worked. So when they got a hold of an online version, it blew them away!!

 

You cannot take a great single player game like TES series and totally revamp the gameplay/mechanics/physics etc into an online version. Something unfamilair to your exisiting player base.  It will not be an Elder Scrolls game then, at least not to its followers.

 

The creaters need to grow some balls and turn TES, LITERALLY, into a mmorpg, not changing anything but for the most part the ability for multiple players to coexist in the world. This will be what the players want. They want "Skyrim Online". And if you cannot deliver that from a technical perspective, do NOT clone WoW/GW2 with TES art/story line. That will be horrible. Anything less will be complete failure in my opinion...

The way I look at it is Zenimax is taking the ES series and stripping it down, using "what it can" and trying to fit it to the basic standard Themepark MMO model. When what they should be doing is taking a Hybrid MMO model and redesigning it to work with the ES series.

Its like taking a multi-sided peg (ES) and whittling it down to fit a round hole (Themepark MMO)

They should instead carve out, router and shape the hole to fit the peg

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Originally posted by BigCountry

I am going to use Ultima Online as the perfect example for taking a single player game and turning it into a mmorpg.

 

Origin took the single player game itself, the gameplay, the storyline, the mechanics, the engine, art work, and ported/morphed it into online play.

 

And this is why it was sucessful from the beginning. Because players loved the Ultima Series, they loved how it functioned, were familiar in how it worked. So when they got a hold of an online version, it blew them away!!

 

You cannot take a great single player game like TES series and totally revamp the gameplay/mechanics/physics etc into an online version. Something unfamilair to your exisiting player base.  It will not be an Elder Scrolls game then, at least not to its followers.

 

The creaters need to grow some balls and turn TES, LITERALLY, into a mmorpg, not changing anything but for the most part the ability for multiple players to coexist in the world. This will be what the players want. They want "Skyrim Online". And if you cannot deliver that from a technical perspective, do NOT clone WoW/GW2 with TES art/story line. That will be horrible. Anything less will be complete failure in my opinion...

The way I look at it is Zenimax is taking the ES series and stripping it down, using "what it can" and trying to fit it to the basic standard Themepark MMO model. When what they should be doing is taking a Hybrid MMO model and redesigning it to work with the ES series.

 

Its like taking a multi-sided peg (ES) and whittling it down to fit a round hole (Themepark MMO)

They should instead carve out, router and shape the hole to fit the peg

 

EXACTLY!!!

Originally posted by Boraell

Originally posted by Uhwop

Originally posted by Boraell

I find it very amusing that because they say "its an MMO, it wont be like skyrim" all the haters somehow read that as them saying it will be a WoW clone, despite no mention of WoW anywhere... theres probably something freudian in there somewhere:P

 I find it amusing that there is a GI article in which those same guys make a comparison to features in ESO and WoW like a dozen times and still people like you insist on telling everyone it's not going to be anything like WoW.  Even though the devs have already said it will.

Actually no they havent, the reviewer is the only person who mentions WoW, I belive it is mentioned 3 times out of 15 pages. 'People like you' should try getting your facts staight instead of jumping straight in with the lynch mob.

 Obviously it was gross exageration on my part.

The fact remains, they did compare features of ESO to WoW directly.  The why they're going to handle story with phasing was directly compared to WoW, but that they feel they "figured out" were it went wrong in WoW.  Combat mechanics were directly compared to WoW in regard to movement.

And "traditional mmo player"?  I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that's not another way of saying "the wow player" is willfully ignoring that 1) WoW is the market share and 2) damn near every mmo that releases plays exactly like WoW. 

They want the game to be familliar to people who come from WoW or games that play like WoW.  You can't deny that, they said it.

This game should, imo, blend GW2 with Neverwinter to hit the top. Dynamic events + user generated content (even if it is instanced) would/should be the way to go with an ES MMO. Sadly, that isn't going to happen.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Yeah, this isn't news to me. The individual I know working for development on TES has been pretty unapologetic every time we've spoken about the project. I've posted more details regarding what I've heard from this person, and if you're interested you can find that post here:

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5024735#5024735

Well, here's one way to think about it:

Given what you said about expanding the universe it seems that they aren't interested in making "Skyrim Online" or "Morrowind Online" but instead want to reach out to themepark mmo players and offer a version of Elderscrolls specifically for their demographic.

Which actually makes sense.

They aren't saying "hey, there are all these Elderscrolls fans, let's make them an online game". They are saying "hey, there are all these mmo players, lets' bring them the Elderscrolls lore in a medium they are comfortable with.

Yeah, but the SRPG fans have been saying since Morrowind, "man, wouldn't it be fucking awesome if this game had a multiplayer function!" Who gives a shit about the themepark audience? OH WAIT! Production and development companies do, because they know these mouth breathers spend money on every piece of garbage that gets shoved out the god damn door! So, sure, alienate the customers who've stuck with your product, who've been dreaming of an enhanced version of the single player games, so you can make a quick buck. Good work.

yeah thats' a bit too cyncial for my taste.

I'm not really into insulting people for liking things that are not my taste. Sort of a habit I developed over the years.

In any case, Bethesda isn't making the game, and aren't interested in Multi-Player.

Zenimax wanted an mmo and probably thought that they own a rich IP that could be used.

I hate to say it but his is more about expanding their IP to different markets (so to speak).

A multi-player Morrowind was just never going to happen Becasue Bethesda really believes in their single player game. Quite frankly, kudos to them for sticking to their guns. However, as cynical as your post sounds there is a ring of truth to part of it. They know the mmo market is a huge market and for those companies that can pull it off, they can be financially successful.

They are no looking at it as alienating customers. If anyting they are thinking that the mmorpg demographic has different people than the single player game demographic and they want to reach out to them.

they way they would alienate their customers was to cease making the single player games and ONLY make multi-player.

That's weird, because I do feel alienated as a fan and as a customer, and there's really no combination of buzz words or excuses that are going to change that unless the direction of their design were to drastically alter (which we know won't happen). Personally, I don't care if Bethesda doesn't want to make multiplayer games. Their fans are, or were, obviously looking forward to seeing the Elder Scrolls touch meet the MMO genre, otherwise Zenimax wouldn't feel it necessary to make formal their lack of apology. They know they fucked up, people working on the game know they fucked up, and the fans of the single player series are quite aware that this isn't anything they wanted to see related to the Elder Scrolls in a multiplayer environment. So why not cut the bullshit? What do you think "expanding the market" means? A larger audience, more money, bottom lining. That's what this is all about, and it's costing the genre itself a massive opportunity.

Also, I apologize if my perception is taken as cynical, rather than passionate or upset. Albert Einstein once said that the definition of insanity is constant repetition of the same actions while expecting different results. Are people really being fulfilled after their seventh or eighth themepark manifestation, becoming just another box sale attached to games that are never planned to have any longevity? Isn't that entirely anithetical to what the genre is supposed to be about?

Originally posted by Uhwop

 

 Obviously it was gross exageration on my part.

The fact remains, they did compare features of ESO to WoW directly.  The why they're going to handle story with phasing was directly compared to WoW, but that they feel they "figured out" were it went wrong in WoW.  Combat mechanics were directly compared to WoW in regard to movement.

And "traditional mmo player"?  I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks that's not another way of saying "the wow player" is willfully ignoring that 1) WoW is the market share and 2) damn near every mmo that releases plays exactly like WoW. 

They want the game to be familliar to people who come from WoW or games that play like WoW.  You can't deny that, they said it.

I agree with your last point that they want the game to be familiar to people who come from WoW or WoW-like games (which you could argue includes every current 'AAA' release) but from a business point of view this makes sense. It is the biggest slice of the MMO market, however, to me a 'traditional mmo player' is someone who played UO or EQ, both of which I spent many years on and considering one of ESO's big selling points so far seems to be open world dungeons you could also argue its a EQ-clone.

Granted while the concept of open world dungeons raises some nostalgia I also wonder how they will handle the 'mine-mine-mine' attitude of a majority of so-called MMO players. Unfortunately I cant see your average WoW played honoring a camp check / kill que.

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Also, I apologize if my perception is taken as cynical, rather than passionate or upset. Albert Einstein once said that the definition of insanity is constant repetition of the same actions while expecting different results. Are people really being fulfilled after their seventh or eighth themepark manifestation, becoming just another box sale attached to games that are never planned to have any longevity? Isn't that entirely anithetical to what the genre is supposed to be about?

Well you certainly don't need to apologize to the likes of me.

But I'd like to address this last part. Maybe a bit of the other stuff.

I think it's specious thinking to assume that people are moving from one "identical" themepark to another and even if they are moving from one "themepark" to another it's sort of wrong to assume the reasons are similiar.

Case in point, I played LOTRO in earnest and always had a level capped character with good gear. Some call LOTRO a WoW clone. However, if it was a clone then I would have preferred the "original" and played wow in earnest. Especially since wow has a huge studio, lots of content and money for more content, yearly events, etc. But I never could get a character beyond the 30's. Just didnt like the setting enough. LOTRO I could.

And though my tastes run more along the lines of Lineage 2 (though I suspect I would have liked EQ as well) I have played just about every mmo out there. Not seriously but each one has offered something different within the form and function of the standard mmo formula.

Also, since I'm a firm believer in being responsible for my own "fun" I don't show up in these games saying "ok, now prove to me that you're worth my time". I play them until they are no longer enjoyable or where I feel I'm finished and move on. I would prefer to stay in one game and not leave but developers always seem to steer them places that I dislike. I think other players move from one game to another because they offer enough that is different. Regardless of form and function.

As far as Bethesda and fans feeling disenfranchised, I'm afraid I just can't mirror your passionte ire. My thought is that, especially in a business where the raison d'être is to make money, if they want to stick to their guns and only make games they want to make then that's what they should do.

I personally don't care what fans think, myself included, when it comes to people leveraging a certain level of artistry in what they do. I have more respect for people who are not swayed by the masses or whatever pressures that exist and do what they think is right. Even if I myself clamor for something different.

And yes, Zenimax is wanting to make more money. They are a game company and they make games. If they dont' make money they dont' exist. I think we are lucky they do have some good titles (with obvious flaws of course) where game players can find a home. Even if for a small bit.

I just don't believe in the "they owe it to us" idea. They owe us a good game when we pay for it. If we want to start thinking of games to be an art form then perhaps we need to allow the idea that not all games are going to be what we want. Whether that's the game or even, (puts on flame retardant suit) an ending that we want.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Lawlmonster

Also, I apologize if my perception is taken as cynical, rather than passionate or upset. Albert Einstein once said that the definition of insanity is constant repetition of the same actions while expecting different results. Are people really being fulfilled after their seventh or eighth themepark manifestation, becoming just another box sale attached to games that are never planned to have any longevity? Isn't that entirely anithetical to what the genre is supposed to be about?

Well you certainly don't need to apologize to the likes of me.

But I'd like to address this last part. Maybe a bit of the other stuff.

I think it's specious thinking to assume that people are moving from one "identical" themepark to another and even if they are moving from one "themepark" to another it's sort of wrong to assume the reasons are similiar.

Case in point, I played LOTRO in earnest and always had a level capped character with good gear. Some call LOTRO a WoW clone. However, if it was a clone then I would have preferred the "original" and played wow in earnest. Especially since wow has a huge studio, lots of content and money for more content, yearly events, etc. But I never could get a character beyond the 30's. Just didnt like the setting enough. LOTRO I could.

And though my tastes run more along the lines of Lineage 2 (though I suspect I would have liked EQ as well) I have played just about every mmo out there. Not seriously but each one has offered something different within the form and function of the standard mmo formula.

Also, since I'm a firm believer in being responsible for my own "fun" I don't show up in these games saying "ok, now prove to me that you're worth my time". I play them until they are no longer enjoyable or where I feel I'm finished and move on. I would prefer to stay in one game and not leave but developers always seem to steer them places that I dislike. I think other players move from one game to another because they offer enough that is different. Regardless of form and function.

As far as Bethesda and fans feeling disenfranchised, I'm afraid I just can't mirror your passionte ire. My thought is that, especially in a business where the raison d'être is to make money, if they want to stick to their guns and only make games they want to make then that's what they should do.

I personally don't care what fans think, myself included, when it comes to people leveraging a certain level of artistry in what they do. I have more respect for people who are not swayed by the masses or whatever pressures that exist and do what they think is right. Even if I myself clamor for something different.

And yes, Zenimax is wanting to make more money. They are a game company and they make games. If they dont' make money they dont' exist. I think we are lucky they do have some good titles (with obvious flaws of course) where game players can find a home. Even if for a small bit.

I just don't believe in the "they owe it to us" idea. They owe us a good game when we pay for it. If we want to start thinking of games to be an art form then perhaps we need to allow the idea that not all games are going to be what we want. Whether that's the game or even, (puts on flame retardant suit) an ending that we want.

agree, but lets be honest, what we all want is to experience the best of morrowind/oblivion and skyrim online.  What these games have  represented to us is the cutting edge of roleplaying,sandbox,atmosphere and a feelling of depth and history.  At the moment what has been shown is just not that, and experience shows that the development team are not going to drop everything and recognise the IP. 

Imagine WOW with serious gritty graphics, or SWTOR with no Jedi.  If you want to use a brand then you dont change the brand, Otherwise why bother - you would be as well calling it 'generic out of date MMO with elder scrolls lore' 

Originally posted by Bladestrom

 

agree, but lets be honest, what we all want is to experience the best of morrowind/oblivion and skyrim online.  What these games have  represented to us is the cutting edge of roleplaying,sandbox,atmosphere and a feelling of depth and history.  At the moment what has been shown is just not that, and experience shows that the development team are not going to drop everything and recognise the IP. 

Imagine WOW with serious gritty graphics, or SWTOR with no Jedi.  If you want to use a brand then you dont change the brand, Otherwise why bother - you would be as well calling it 'generic out of date MMO with elder scrolls lore' 

 

well if you are askign what I want then YES to all of that.

But I suppose the point is that this one is not for us.

It's elder scrolls for mmo players. Well, mmo players who aren't elderscrolls players.

For what its worth, I am excited about this title and I will be a pre-order.

Until then, I will be playing SW -- GW2 holds zero intrest for me (Not that its a bad game in any way, just not for me.)

I can't wait to see where they go with the Crafting and PvP.

Why should Zenimax, a subdivision of a Bethesda, apoligize to anyone when they havent released the game yet?

Have you been on the kiddie console gamers forum at bethesda? Im glad that most of them arent going to be in the game anyway.

Why do I find ES single player games so boring? Mostly everyone does thats why they mod them to no end.

What is in McDonalds Meat? Gives me this shits so I stay away from it.

Why do people over the age of 12 use the word Epic? Really annoying.

Do they know that they sound like asshats?