@simplyawful

Well first of all, decks are the premade builds are they not? You don't even have to use them.


Second, just because you can use all skills doesn't mean everyone will be good a every build. Someone doesn't become a good tank or healer simply because they spec for it. And really there are plenty of people that don't want to do that. Most people just want to dps. There are a large variety of dps builds in this game for everyone. Assuming decent balance then people won't have to run around with the same build.


Third, I don't believe the premise that everyone will have all skills. I do believe that it will take a decent time investment to acquire everything. Skills come slower later in the game from what I have heard and I expect a significant amount of grinding to get everything.

Most players are not going to attempt to unlock everything for a long time, and those that do will still have a few things they like.

Noone is going to use every build possible all the time. Thats crazy.


This isn't even taking gear into account. I may have a good hammer and shotgun set, but have no gear for elemental/rifles. I'm not going to run around usin ele/rifle allthe time because the guy with gear will be better at it, or whatever.



Anyways, if you don't believe this game has customization, then that's fine. I honestly don't know what it will be like either when the game comes out.

You seem to think everyone will have every skill and everyone will want to use every build, switching between them all the time. I think that is incorrect but we shall see.

The shadow of.....SWTOR!!!!   Duh duh duuuuuuuh..........

 

 

 

But Im sorry to say I do see TSW being a niche game at best.  And I think it will do fine for awhile.  I just dont think its going to be groundbreaking.  Fans of the game should have a fairly good time with it for at least a year if not longer. 

Originally posted by dubyahite
@simplyawful

Well first of all, decks are the premade builds are they not? You don't even have to use them.


Second, just because you can use all skills doesn't mean everyone will be good a every build. Someone doesn't become a good tank or healer simply because they spec for it. And really there are plenty of people that don't want to do that. Most people just want to dps. There are a large variety of dps builds in this game for everyone. Assuming decent balance then people won't have to run around with the same build.


Third, I don't believe the premise that everyone will have all skills. I do believe that it will take a decent time investment to acquire everything. Skills come slower later in the game from what I have heard and I expect a significant amount of grinding to get everything.

Most players are not going to attempt to unlock everything for a long time, and those that do will still have a few things they like.

Noone is going to use every build possible all the time. Thats crazy.


This isn't even taking gear into account. I may have a good hammer and shotgun set, but have no gear for elemental/rifles. I'm not going to run around usin ele/rifle allthe time because the guy with gear will be better at it, or whatever.



Anyways, if you don't believe this game has customization, then that's fine. I honestly don't know what it will be like either when the game comes out.

You seem to think everyone will have every skill and everyone will want to use every build, switching between them all the time. I think that is incorrect but we shall see.

 

The developers stated that the red was the intent.

With only 7 active abilities, it's pretty easy to do anything in this game in terms of combat. The only challenge is in the building of skill decks, but that's just a little bit of research just like it was in Anarchy Online

Everyone will eventually get all skills. That is why quests are repeatable, it's essentially how you progress through the game instead of leveling traditionally. The developers even said that there was progression, but it was much "flatter" than in most other games because of it.

 

So yeah.. not sure what you expect from the game, but it's pretty clear that they went for a game without dedicated roles given you can swap between them readily and learn them all. The specialization points are there to make you a unique snowflake, but ... as of right now they are kind of minor.

 

 

Originally posted by simplyawful

Originally posted by dubyahite
@simplyawful

Well first of all, decks are the premade builds are they not? You don't even have to use them.


Second, just because you can use all skills doesn't mean everyone will be good a every build. Someone doesn't become a good tank or healer simply because they spec for it. And really there are plenty of people that don't want to do that. Most people just want to dps. There are a large variety of dps builds in this game for everyone. Assuming decent balance then people won't have to run around with the same build.


Third, I don't believe the premise that everyone will have all skills. I do believe that it will take a decent time investment to acquire everything. Skills come slower later in the game from what I have heard and I expect a significant amount of grinding to get everything.

Most players are not going to attempt to unlock everything for a long time, and those that do will still have a few things they like.

Noone is going to use every build possible all the time. Thats crazy.


This isn't even taking gear into account. I may have a good hammer and shotgun set, but have no gear for elemental/rifles. I'm not going to run around usin ele/rifle allthe time because the guy with gear will be better at it, or whatever.



Anyways, if you don't believe this game has customization, then that's fine. I honestly don't know what it will be like either when the game comes out.

You seem to think everyone will have every skill and everyone will want to use every build, switching between them all the time. I think that is incorrect but we shall see.

 

The developers stated that the red was the intent.

With only 7 active abilities, it's pretty easy to do anything in this game in terms of combat. The only challenge is in the building of skill decks, but that's just a little bit of research just like it was in Anarchy Online

Everyone will eventually get all skills. That is why quests are repeatable, it's essentially how you progress through the game instead of leveling traditionally. The developers even said that there was progression, but it was much "flatter" than in most other games because of it.

 

So yeah.. not sure what you expect from the game, but it's pretty clear that they went for a game without dedicated roles given you can swap between them readily and learn them all. The specialization points are there to make you a unique snowflake, but ... as of right now they are kind of minor.

 

 

That may be their intent, but I still have doubt that everyone will go through the effort required to do it.  Just because quests are repeatable doesn't mean that people are going to run around doing every quest over and over to get every skill. The more casual players most certainly won't in my opinion.

 

Let's throw that argument out though, and assume you are right. Every single person who plays the game will get every skill unlocked at some point. Or at least the vast majority will. That's fine, I can go along with that.  

 

The real point of my argument, however, is that even if your average player has every skill available to them, the vast majority will go unused by any given player. Most people are simply not going to have enough builds rattling around in their heads that can utilize all 500 skills.

There are people out there who absolutely refuse to heal, for example. In lots of class based games there are classes capable of being healers or dps. SWTOR is a good recent example of this. Your average sith inquisitor was not a healer. I knew many that had zero interest in healing, they just wanted to zap stuff with lightning. Those people aren't going to be out there using every build possible. 

Even within healers there are several different ways to make a healing build between the different weapons with healing. Not to mention the passives. 

The same could be said for any role. People aren't going to use every dps spec out there just because they can. They will use what they like

 

I get your point. Yes people will be able to swap between roles at will, noone is locked into any one thing, but will they? That is the question that matters. Like I said, just because you can make a tanking build, doesn't mean you are a good tank. 

Originally posted by dubyahite

 

That may be their intent, but I still have doubt that everyone will go through the effort required to do it.  Just because quests are repeatable doesn't mean that people are going to run around doing every quest over and over to get every skill. The more casual players most certainly won't in my opinion.

 

Let's throw that argument out though, and assume you are right. Every single person who plays the game will get every skill unlocked at some point. Or at least the vast majority will. That's fine, I can go along with that.  

 

The real point of my argument, however, is that even if your average player has every skill available to them, the vast majority will go unused by any given player. Most people are simply not going to have enough builds rattling around in their heads that can utilize all 500 skills.

There are people out there who absolutely refuse to heal, for example. In lots of class based games there are classes capable of being healers or dps. SWTOR is a good recent example of this. Your average sith inquisitor was not a healer. I knew many that had zero interest in healing, they just wanted to zap stuff with lightning. Those people aren't going to be out there using every build possible. 

Even within healers there are several different ways to make a healing build between the different weapons with healing. Not to mention the passives. 

The same could be said for any role. People aren't going to use every dps spec out there just because they can. They will use what they like

 

I get your point. Yes people will be able to swap between roles at will, noone is locked into any one thing, but will they? That is the question that matters. Like I said, just because you can make a tanking build, doesn't mean you are a good tank. 

 

 

First off, instead of levels there is degree of completion of the wheel i.e. the % of skills you've unlocked. That is essentially the level. You're assuming that not everybody will hit max level, which is kind of ridiculous. There aren't many western MMORPGs out where you can't hit max level reasonably, EQ was one but that was more than a decade ago.

It's also ridiculous to assume that people won't use more than one build. It defeats the entire purpose of the weapon system. You're supposed to use more than one set of two weapons in different situations depending on what is needed. Specialization in this game exists to some degree, but is not the core of the game. The game is classless precisely because of that.

You're not supposed to specialize heavily like in other games, you're supposed to adapt to what is needed. The combat is probably simple for that reason as well, since you're supposed to master different roles.

 

If you refuse to heal, then it's fine, because everybody else can heal. If you refuse to tank, that's fine too, because everybody else can tank. The same holds for dps. You CAN do everything, but you're not forced. You only make it harder on yourself if you want to specialize in one role though...

 

 

---

Originally posted by simplyawful

You're not supposed to specialize heavily like in other games, you're supposed to adapt to what is needed. The combat is probably simple for that reason as well, since you're supposed to master different roles.

---

The combat is simple for the beginner/solo quests and complex for the high end group content. Thats how most mmos do it. Dont see the pattern changing here.

Originally posted by simplyawful

Originally posted by dubyahite

 

That may be their intent, but I still have doubt that everyone will go through the effort required to do it.  Just because quests are repeatable doesn't mean that people are going to run around doing every quest over and over to get every skill. The more casual players most certainly won't in my opinion.

 

Let's throw that argument out though, and assume you are right. Every single person who plays the game will get every skill unlocked at some point. Or at least the vast majority will. That's fine, I can go along with that.  

 

The real point of my argument, however, is that even if your average player has every skill available to them, the vast majority will go unused by any given player. Most people are simply not going to have enough builds rattling around in their heads that can utilize all 500 skills.

There are people out there who absolutely refuse to heal, for example. In lots of class based games there are classes capable of being healers or dps. SWTOR is a good recent example of this. Your average sith inquisitor was not a healer. I knew many that had zero interest in healing, they just wanted to zap stuff with lightning. Those people aren't going to be out there using every build possible. 

Even within healers there are several different ways to make a healing build between the different weapons with healing. Not to mention the passives. 

The same could be said for any role. People aren't going to use every dps spec out there just because they can. They will use what they like

 

I get your point. Yes people will be able to swap between roles at will, noone is locked into any one thing, but will they? That is the question that matters. Like I said, just because you can make a tanking build, doesn't mean you are a good tank. 

 

 

First off, instead of levels there is degree of completion of the wheel i.e. the % of skills you've unlocked. That is essentially the level. You're assuming that not everybody will hit max level, which is kind of ridiculous. There aren't many western MMORPGs out where you can't hit max level reasonably, EQ was one but that was more than a decade ago.

It's also ridiculous to assume that people won't use more than one build. It defeats the entire purpose of the weapon system. You're supposed to use more than one set of two weapons in different situations depending on what is needed. Specialization in this game exists to some degree, but is not the core of the game. The game is classless precisely because of that.

You're not supposed to specialize heavily like in other games, you're supposed to adapt to what is needed. The combat is probably simple for that reason as well, since you're supposed to master different roles.

 

If you refuse to heal, then it's fine, because everybody else can heal. If you refuse to tank, that's fine too, because everybody else can tank. The same holds for dps. You CAN do everything, but you're not forced. You only make it harder on yourself if you want to specialize in one role though...

 

 

I understand all of this stuff.  

 

I'm not saying people won't use more than one build. I'm saying that they won't use ALL builds.  This is how their character will be different than others. Between the builds they are comfortable with, and the gear they have, they will only be proficient with a certain number of builds. 

 

I'm also not saying that everyone will specialize in one role. I'm saying that there are things that they will like to do and things that they don't like to do.

 

Your last paragraph is making my point for me actually.  Remember we are talking about differentiating your character from other characters (or at least I was). The skills/builds/gear you use will determine how your character is different from others, that's all I was saying.  

 

It's not as simple as saying that every person will have access to every skill. What makes them different is what skills they choose to use, as I have said all along

The Cool part is that in pvp you can change your build depending on who you meet. This exponentially increases strategy in pvp.

Originally posted by dubyahite

 

I understand all of this stuff.  

 

I'm not saying people won't use more than one build. I'm saying that they won't use ALL builds.  This is how their character will be different than others. Between the builds they are comfortable with, and the gear they have, they will only be proficient with a certain number of builds. 

 

I'm also not saying that everyone will specialize in one role. I'm saying that there are things that they will like to do and things that they don't like to do.

 

Your last paragraph is making my point for me actually.  Remember we are talking about differentiating your character from other characters (or at least I was). The skills/builds/gear you use will determine how your character is different from others, that's all I was saying.  

 

It's not as simple as saying that every person will have access to every skill. What makes them different is what skills they choose to use, as I have said all along

 

What some people will, or will not do is irrelevant. What is relevant is what features are actually offered by the game.

 If I make you a sandwich and you throw away everything but the bread, it doesn't mean that every element of the sandwich was a point of customization.

 

SWToR doen't have a shadow. It IS a shadow of what it could have been.

 

 

@simplyawful

Oh my, the old bad food analogy. So tired of seeing those around here.


Ah screw it, let's continue with that analogy. I'll clean it up for you a bit so that it's more relevant.

This game isnt giving you a sandwich, it's giving you all of the ingredients to make a sandwich how you want. It's giving you bread, ham, roast beef, turkey, salami, lettuce, mayo, mustard, tomatoes, American cheese, Swiss, cheddar, etc.

I get to choose what goes on my favorite sandwich, and you get to choose your own. They will likely be different with 500 toppings. I might like different sandwiches at different times, that doesn't mean there is no customization.


Your position is strange to me. You are arguingthatthere is no customization in a game that doesn't restrict what you can choose to use on your character and arguably gives you many more choices for that character than any class based system.

I don't understand how everyone having access to all weapons and abilities = no customization. It doesn't make any sense to me.

You and I may both make tanks. There are a ton of tanking abities in the skill wheel. My tank could work entirely differently then yours but both are viable.

Same with any of the roles. You say there is no customization because anyone can switch to anything at any time. Im saying that even though that is true different people can go about it entirely differently. There are plenty of different ways to make a healer or a dps or a tank in this game.


You know what? As soon as a conversation on this site devolves into terrible food analogies, I give up. Why is it always food?


It's fine if you don't see or believe there will be customization in this game. I don't see how you could miss it, but whatever. Maybe we just aren't thinking of the same definition of customization I guess. To me this is far more customizable than say a game with skill trees.

This system is similar to D3's skill system In a way, only with far more skills. I know I have experienced a lot of customization of my character in that game. I have used builds/gear that drastically alter my play style many times over again. To me, TSW has the d3 system on steroids.

I'm guessing you see customization as some permanent thing that locks your character into a specific build? That or maybe you are thinking of a class system? Classes prevent peoplefrom getting all skills lime you are arguing against, but to me it seems far less customizable.


Anyway, I give up. This is pointless, as neither of us is going to change our minds. I'm going to enjoy the game regardless, so it doesn't really matter to me.

Originally posted by Kinchyle

Originally posted by Kyleran

No, I'm afraid to buy TSW because it's made by Funcom. 

Definintely holding off until post-launch to see what sort of quality they manage to deliver.

 

Seriously?!?!?

 

Are you just one of those Funcom haters then? Because they have one of the best track records for MMOs unless you are a hater.

 

 

 Lol...just came across this gem. One of the best track records my ass.

Or is this like in Fringe where you're from the other dimension where something like this might actually be even remotely close to being true?

I'm interested in this game and am purchasing it myself but...yeah...can't blame anyone for being hesitant towards Funcom.

 

Originally posted by dubyahite


This system is similar to D3's skill system In a way, only with far more skills. I know I have experienced a lot of customization of my character in that game. I have used builds/gear that drastically alter my play style many times over again. To me, TSW has the d3 system on steroids.

I'm guessing you see customization as some permanent thing that locks your character into a specific build? That or maybe you are thinking of a class system? Classes prevent peoplefrom getting all skills lime you are arguing against, but to me it seems far less customizable.


Anyway, I give up. This is pointless, as neither of us is going to change our minds. I'm going to enjoy the game regardless, so it doesn't really matter to me.

 

Exactly. A self-imposed restriction on available content is not a form of customization. You might prefer a subset over the other, but that doesn't change the fact that its complement exists and has different applications.

The only dimension of true customization is the specialization page where you use SP to augment what you already own.

Customization is by definition tailoring something to the individuals needs. You are given all skills eventually, but you need to distribute your SP according to how you want to play. SP define the customization in the game, not the decks.

 

You might prefer DPS, but will require healing vs. certain mobs: If you have some kind of psychological malady that prevents you from choosing a healing deck, then it is your own personal restriction and not a degree of customization.

Everybody in the game has the same skills as a DPS/Healer/Tank, you customize with your SP that passively affect each roles efficacy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The game has EA behind it as a publisher meaning strict deadlines which basically guarantees that the game will be released in an unpolished state with basic features missing in it. 

It happened to SWOTR and will happen to this game.

Originally posted by Vaultar

The game has EA behind it as a publisher meaning strict deadlines which basically guarantees that the game will be released in an unpolished state with basic features missing in it. 

It happened to SWOTR and will happen to this game.

no EA is a publishing partner, like they did with the Orange Box and Eidos did with AOC.  Funcom is both the producer and the developer.  Its not the same thing as SWTOR where EA are THE publisher and also own bioware.

That said it is a concern that EA might one day buy out Funcom, I would not have much faith in the game given such a turn of events, EA kill MMOs with absoloutley 0 support.

Originally posted by ShakyMo

Originally posted by Vaultar

The game has EA behind it as a publisher meaning strict deadlines which basically guarantees that the game will be released in an unpolished state with basic features missing in it. 

It happened to SWOTR and will happen to this game.

no EA is a publishing partner, like they did with the Orange Box and Eidos did with AOC.  Funcom is both the producer and the developer.  Its not the same thing as SWTOR where EA are THE publisher and also own bioware.

That said it is a concern that EA might one day buy out Funcom, I would not have much faith in the game given such a turn of events, EA kill MMOs with absoloutley 0 support.

 Yep, exactly

That would be my only concern as well

Im afraid to buy this game because Funcom is making it. You know..the creators of such wonderful and successful games as Anarchy Online and Age of Conan......

---

Originally posted by PyrateLV
Im afraid to buy this game because Funcom is making it. You know..the creators of such wonderful and successful games as Anarchy Online and Age of Conan......

---

Interesting. I haven't heard this reasoning before....

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Im afraid to buy this game because Funcom is making it. You know..the creators of such wonderful and successful games as Anarchy Online and Age of Conan......

 

I want a virtual sandbox world where nothing really happens, but i do want s house, which i could build anywhere. Wouldnt that be so Cool

Originally posted by Vaultar

The game has EA behind it as a publisher meaning strict deadlines which basically guarantees that the game will be released in an unpolished state with basic features missing in it. 

It happened to SWOTR and will happen to this game.

This is the third time ive seen a post like this.

 

The publisher of a game DOES NOT dictate to the developer...

 

To make your argument even more incorrect than its bases that a lowly publish is going to dictate to the owners of the property when they launch it....they have pushed launch back...for now a 2nd time.

 

Anyway this argument that EA is calling the shots is one of the less thoughtful arguments as to why to avoid this game that ive seen.

 

If EA had been calling the shots, this game would have launched in Dec'11 and would have been AOC style...i have faith that the reduction of bugs and issues is slowly decreasing since launch is now predicted for july 3rd and they apparently are overhauling combat (including the addition of AOC's double tap dodges)

 

Im not sure if its you who keeps posting this but please stop its a terrible argument and just flat out wrong.