Originally posted by erictlewis

You guys want to see the math then you should look at this site,  http://www.torstatus.net/shards/us

There is a thread in swtor forums the lady running it is a mathematician.  She thinks there is 700-800 k subs with only 76k players online at one time 10% of the total population.  I disagree somewhat.  I think the total population is about 500k with 30% online at one time.  Either way you look at it 76k spread out over 214 servers is not good, and they are still bleeding subs.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=449144&goto=newpost

Also she Paige made it to this article about subs  http://www.shacknews.com/article/73961/report-average-old-republic-server-has-less-than-350-players   same lady running the thread.

Anyway it is bad news for swtor,  There is no way they have 1.3 million active subs based on all that math. Like I said I suspect 500k and dropping.

 

 

Can't see any indication that they've taken things like free time and multiple characters into account in their calculations.  But may have missed it.

A month or so ago(when they were still counting the 3 month subs) I think their number would have been accurate and inline with what bioware said.  

Now I think your 500k is probably closer to the mark, with a drop to below their 300-500k to cover their operating costs when the 6 month subs are up(at around the 7 month mark)

I don't believe they ever had over a mil paying monthly subs and doesn't look like they will ever manage that now.

Originally posted by Trol1

Originally posted by Portland

Yes, thats what i want, the main  $cash$ investors of SWTOR should replace the complete lead staff of SWTOR´s marketing and design team.

...

And there was me thinking that somebody would come up with the brilliant idea of having BW/EA hire a few squads (well, I guess actually an army-sized taskforce) and hit every single person who has cancelled their subscription to SWTOR, corral them all, and ship them off to slave away in some 3rd world mines digging for coal and diamonds and amber and whatnot.

Because: NEWSFLASH: the ones responsible are the ones who have cancelled their subscription!

Unless I'm mistaken there is still something like free will - unless I signed that away by signing SWTOR's EULA but somehow I doubt it...

So it is not BW/EA who are responsible for clicking the "cancel" button, it's the subscriber.

Yeah yeah, of course: "but it is BW/EA with their shitty game, their horrible marketing, etc. etc. who have made the subscriber leave"

Again, wrong: it is the subscriber who has made a judgment call based on how he perceives the situation to be.

It's "I think the game is bad" not "the game is bad"... but of course as the the customer is always right, the "I think the game is bad" must mean "the game is bad".

Jeez...

Anyhow, Portland, I love how in one sentence you claim that an 18 year old student would know how to save the game while in the next sentence you are making calls based on information that gives you (and everybody else) very little details.

Unless you are telling me that there is a universal "save everything" formula that you've been aware of since you were 18 (and student), or that you are only 17 (or 18 and not yet student) now, yeah, I don't know the logic is failing in your statement...

But okay, here is a hint for you to chew on: BW has a number of locations across the world.

Supposedly there are 2 that are dedicated to SWTOR: Austin and Galway.

If BW really was that panicy about SWTOR and its numbers, and actually already button everything up to get ready for the sinking of the ship, why would you layoff 100 out of ? There was an estimate number of 800 given for the full workforce that had worked on SWTOR (including voice actors) on 4 different continents.

Going with that number BW would just have laidoff 1/8th of the SWTOR crew... though with taking out the voice actors, internal rotation within BW/EA, and that Galway is home to 200 ppl supporting SWTOR, well, let's say at best there may have been 500 ppl at BioWare Austion - hey, people in this thread love throwing out funky numbers, don't mind if I do the same.

So BioWare has just kicked 1/5th of their Austin stuff... and yet they have not touched anybody in Galway?

Anybody else feels that this logic seems to be a bit off?

I mean wouldn't you try to save as much money as possible and in turn try to cut the fat wherever possible? Including Galway?

Could it be that your 18 year old student was just a bit too American and therefore failed to see past the border of the USA?

Also, there has already been word that

A spokesman released the following statement:

“BioWare has restructured its studio in Austin today. Of the employees impacted, some will be able to join other projects within EA, others will leave the company. These are very difficult decisions, but it allows us to focus our staff to maintain and grow Star Wars: The Old Republic,”

“BioWare Austin remains a large and important part of BioWare and EA, working with other studios around the world to continue to deliver a high-quality service and exciting new content for Star Wars: The Old Republic.”  ?http://ugrgaming.com/2012/05/24/bioware-austin-layoffs/ )( 

http://ugrgaming.com/2012/05/24/bioware-austin-layoffs/ 

The part I'd stress is working with other studios around the world to continue to deliver a high-quality service and exciting new content for Star Wars: The Old Republic

Especially after seeing that BW Edmonton is actually offer positions for Character, Concept, Environment artists and programmers, especially for the SW franchise!

I mean with the base material BW now has for SWTOR, it seems a bit like "Honey, do we still need to live right next to the hardware store now that you've bought that huge tool box? Isn't it enough to know there is a hardware store in town just in case you need something that's not in the tool box?"

Anyhow, I would rather leave the running of SWTOR to the guys at BioWare than to some 18 year old student...

LOL. Brilliant satire.

Originally posted by noncley

Originally posted by Trol1

Originally posted by Portland

Yes, thats what i want, the main  $cash$ investors of SWTOR should replace the complete lead staff of SWTOR´s marketing and design team.

...

And there was me thinking that somebody would come up with the brilliant idea of having BW/EA hire a few squads (well, I guess actually an army-sized taskforce) and hit every single person who has cancelled their subscription to SWTOR, corral them all, and ship them off to slave away in some 3rd world mines digging for coal and diamonds and amber and whatnot.

Because: NEWSFLASH: the ones responsible are the ones who have cancelled their subscription!

Unless I'm mistaken there is still something like free will - unless I signed that away by signing SWTOR's EULA but somehow I doubt it...

So it is not BW/EA who are responsible for clicking the "cancel" button, it's the subscriber.

Yeah yeah, of course: "but it is BW/EA with their shitty game, their horrible marketing, etc. etc. who have made the subscriber leave"

Again, wrong: it is the subscriber who has made a judgment call based on how he perceives the situation to be.

It's "I think the game is bad" not "the game is bad"... but of course as the the customer is always right, the "I think the game is bad" must mean "the game is bad".

Jeez...

Anyhow, Portland, I love how in one sentence you claim that an 18 year old student would know how to save the game while in the next sentence you are making calls based on information that gives you (and everybody else) very little details.

Unless you are telling me that there is a universal "save everything" formula that you've been aware of since you were 18 (and student), or that you are only 17 (or 18 and not yet student) now, yeah, I don't know the logic is failing in your statement...

But okay, here is a hint for you to chew on: BW has a number of locations across the world.

Supposedly there are 2 that are dedicated to SWTOR: Austin and Galway.

If BW really was that panicy about SWTOR and its numbers, and actually already button everything up to get ready for the sinking of the ship, why would you layoff 100 out of ? There was an estimate number of 800 given for the full workforce that had worked on SWTOR (including voice actors) on 4 different continents.

Going with that number BW would just have laidoff 1/8th of the SWTOR crew... though with taking out the voice actors, internal rotation within BW/EA, and that Galway is home to 200 ppl supporting SWTOR, well, let's say at best there may have been 500 ppl at BioWare Austion - hey, people in this thread love throwing out funky numbers, don't mind if I do the same.

So BioWare has just kicked 1/5th of their Austin stuff... and yet they have not touched anybody in Galway?

Anybody else feels that this logic seems to be a bit off?

I mean wouldn't you try to save as much money as possible and in turn try to cut the fat wherever possible? Including Galway?

Could it be that your 18 year old student was just a bit too American and therefore failed to see past the border of the USA?

Also, there has already been word that

A spokesman released the following statement:

“BioWare has restructured its studio in Austin today. Of the employees impacted, some will be able to join other projects within EA, others will leave the company. These are very difficult decisions, but it allows us to focus our staff to maintain and grow Star Wars: The Old Republic,”

“BioWare Austin remains a large and important part of BioWare and EA, working with other studios around the world to continue to deliver a high-quality service and exciting new content for Star Wars: The Old Republic.”  ?http://ugrgaming.com/2012/05/24/bioware-austin-layoffs/ )( 

http://ugrgaming.com/2012/05/24/bioware-austin-layoffs/ 

The part I'd stress is working with other studios around the world to continue to deliver a high-quality service and exciting new content for Star Wars: The Old Republic

Especially after seeing that BW Edmonton is actually offer positions for Character, Concept, Environment artists and programmers, especially for the SW franchise!

I mean with the base material BW now has for SWTOR, it seems a bit like "Honey, do we still need to live right next to the hardware store now that you've bought that huge tool box? Isn't it enough to know there is a hardware store in town just in case you need something that's not in the tool box?"

Anyhow, I would rather leave the running of SWTOR to the guys at BioWare than to some 18 year old student...

LOL. Brilliant satire.

i dont think so....

Originally posted by Portland

Originally posted by noncley

Originally posted by Trol1

Originally posted by Portland

Yes, thats what i want, the main  $cash$ investors of SWTOR should replace the complete lead staff of SWTOR´s marketing and design team.

...

And there was me thinking that somebody would come up with the brilliant idea of having BW/EA hire a few squads (well, I guess actually an army-sized taskforce) and hit every single person who has cancelled their subscription to SWTOR, corral them all, and ship them off to slave away in some 3rd world mines digging for coal and diamonds and amber and whatnot.

Because: NEWSFLASH: the ones responsible are the ones who have cancelled their subscription!

Unless I'm mistaken there is still something like free will - unless I signed that away by signing SWTOR's EULA but somehow I doubt it...

So it is not BW/EA who are responsible for clicking the "cancel" button, it's the subscriber.

Yeah yeah, of course: "but it is BW/EA with their shitty game, their horrible marketing, etc. etc. who have made the subscriber leave"

Again, wrong: it is the subscriber who has made a judgment call based on how he perceives the situation to be.

It's "I think the game is bad" not "the game is bad"... but of course as the the customer is always right, the "I think the game is bad" must mean "the game is bad".

Jeez...

Anyhow, Portland, I love how in one sentence you claim that an 18 year old student would know how to save the game while in the next sentence you are making calls based on information that gives you (and everybody else) very little details.

Unless you are telling me that there is a universal "save everything" formula that you've been aware of since you were 18 (and student), or that you are only 17 (or 18 and not yet student) now, yeah, I don't know the logic is failing in your statement...

But okay, here is a hint for you to chew on: BW has a number of locations across the world.

Supposedly there are 2 that are dedicated to SWTOR: Austin and Galway.

If BW really was that panicy about SWTOR and its numbers, and actually already button everything up to get ready for the sinking of the ship, why would you layoff 100 out of ? There was an estimate number of 800 given for the full workforce that had worked on SWTOR (including voice actors) on 4 different continents.

Going with that number BW would just have laidoff 1/8th of the SWTOR crew... though with taking out the voice actors, internal rotation within BW/EA, and that Galway is home to 200 ppl supporting SWTOR, well, let's say at best there may have been 500 ppl at BioWare Austion - hey, people in this thread love throwing out funky numbers, don't mind if I do the same.

So BioWare has just kicked 1/5th of their Austin stuff... and yet they have not touched anybody in Galway?

Anybody else feels that this logic seems to be a bit off?

I mean wouldn't you try to save as much money as possible and in turn try to cut the fat wherever possible? Including Galway?

Could it be that your 18 year old student was just a bit too American and therefore failed to see past the border of the USA?

Also, there has already been word that

A spokesman released the following statement:

“BioWare has restructured its studio in Austin today. Of the employees impacted, some will be able to join other projects within EA, others will leave the company. These are very difficult decisions, but it allows us to focus our staff to maintain and grow Star Wars: The Old Republic,”

“BioWare Austin remains a large and important part of BioWare and EA, working with other studios around the world to continue to deliver a high-quality service and exciting new content for Star Wars: The Old Republic.”  ?http://ugrgaming.com/2012/05/24/bioware-austin-layoffs/ )( 

http://ugrgaming.com/2012/05/24/bioware-austin-layoffs/ 

The part I'd stress is working with other studios around the world to continue to deliver a high-quality service and exciting new content for Star Wars: The Old Republic

Especially after seeing that BW Edmonton is actually offer positions for Character, Concept, Environment artists and programmers, especially for the SW franchise!

I mean with the base material BW now has for SWTOR, it seems a bit like "Honey, do we still need to live right next to the hardware store now that you've bought that huge tool box? Isn't it enough to know there is a hardware store in town just in case you need something that's not in the tool box?"

Anyhow, I would rather leave the running of SWTOR to the guys at BioWare than to some 18 year old student...

LOL. Brilliant satire.

i dont think so....

Then it's even funnier.

Seems people are cancelling subs as we speak: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=466113

Originally posted by Trol1

Originally posted by jtcgs

 

Someone needs to point the above out...you call the leaders blind and not seeing reality yet you are saying this game is good and could be a cash cow.

1. people dont leave good games in mass.

1. yes they do IF they don't like it.

 There really was no point in quoting the rest of what you wrote because it was all the same derp as what I did quote.

Your defense of people not leaving good games was that they do...if they dont like it...as if someone not liking a game is still somehow good to them. durp'd'do...

Who know? maybe there is a bigger skim on the way.

Maybe they want to devaluate the game to go  free to play, or maybe they want to rebuy it for 1 symbolic dollard .

Or maybe Lucasart corporated said to wait and see because they don't want to damage the IP or they want to flame the game to name someone responsable to clean up the IP.

For sure star wars IP did bite some dust on this one.

All we can do it's just play something else, I am pretty sure that in 1 year time SWTOR will be runnig in some way profitable, with a good amount of players, the question is who's gonna get the cake ? if there is any :)

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Trol1

Originally posted by jtcgs

 

Someone needs to point the above out...you call the leaders blind and not seeing reality yet you are saying this game is good and could be a cash cow.

1. people dont leave good games in mass.

1. yes they do IF they don't like it.

 There really was no point in quoting the rest of what you wrote because it was all the same derp as what I did quote.

Your defense of people not leaving good games was that they do...if they dont like it...as if someone not liking a game is still somehow good to them. durp'd'do...

Errr jtcgs, it may help if you try that again?!

I'm sure that I explained that a game (or movie) can be of good quality (or at least what people consider to be of good quality) - read: is good - but you still may not like it. And therefore leave the game (or the cinema... well, maybe not when you finally managed to land your arm around your girlfriend's shoulder, then even the "bestest" RomCom may be an acceptable sacrifice.

I'll not try to explain this with more examples as obviously that would potentially generate too much text (for you).

But yeah, understand what people are saying sometimes does help... right?

SWTOR was a fail from launch: main reason is it wasn't by definition a MMO. Just a fact and how it is!

---

Originally posted by MosesZD
Sigh....   You guys are so not accountants...     And it's kind of cute...   But then it's the war of correcting perceptions...

Sadly, most of the people on the board of directors will be fooled by that.   Most of the public will be fooled by that.  Most of the analysts will be fooled by that.  And to the embarrasment of my profession, most of the CPAs will be fooled by that as well even though we spent years in college learning and applying the second way....   People just do not dig into the details like they should.    And this lack of curiosity...    Well, that's how get Ponzi schemes, Enron and all the rest.   The information is there, but you have to look...   And people don't...

---

It's not like that. No one get's fooled, but we can't do anything about it.
We can't get a nice soft NERF gun and shoot at the PR guy till he stops telling this bullshit.
We can only post, and not even at the offical forums. (thread get's deleted / locked - user banned)

It's not like i have any accountats interessts in SWTOR either, i'm a player and an empty server, MY empty server is all the proof i need. Player's couldn't care less if it's 400k / 900k or 1.7M overall.

Originally posted by Thorbrand

SWTOR was a fail from launch: main reason is it wasn't by definition a MMO. Just a fact and how it is!

Errr... Thorbrand... and what is the definition of a MMO?

• A massively multiplayer online game. A computer game in which a large number of players can simultaneously interact in a persistent world; A massively multiplayer online role-playing game

Originally posted by Trol1

Originally posted by Thorbrand

SWTOR was a fail from launch: main reason is it wasn't by definition a MMO. Just a fact and how it is!

Errr... Thorbrand... and what is the definition of a MMO?

• A massively multiplayer online game. A computer game in which a large number of players can simultaneously interact in a persistent world; A massively multiplayer online role-playing game

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/MMO

 

• Massively Multiplayer Online. Games like World of Warcraft (aka “WoW”) where there is a persistent “world” and thousands or even millions of players can interact in different parts of it simultaneously. Many different varieties exist.

gameroutlook.com/

• Massively Multi-player On-Line(MMO) games are played on the internet with many people i.e.. Everquest.

videogametesterjobs1.com/terminology/

 

• MMORPG minus the RPG. ->

  MMORPG: See Massively-multiplayer online role-playing game. ->

  Massively Multiplayer online role-playing game: Whoever invented this inelegant cancer should be executed for sins against games writing. It’s horrible. Er… online roleplaying games with kerzillions of people all killing boars and stuff.

www.rockpapershotgun.com/can-we-have-a-glossary/

Not trying to flame but the definition of MMO is really pretty much in the eye of the beholder in regards to certain aspects. Or maybe rather one particular aspect: "massively"

 

I mean, we don't really have to wonder about either "multiplayer" or "online" - SWTOR can only be played online, SWTOR does have missions that are (under normal circumstances) designated to multiple players working together (Heroics 2+/4, Flashpoints, even certain datacrons ;-) ).

 

And yes, a lot can be played solo in SWTOR, yet, being able to play solo was never a reason for any other MMO to get "de-MMO'd".

 

With "massively" (or potentially better "massively multiplayer") the thing becomes, well, a huge grey zone:

 

I mean, if you look at the definitions listed above, there's talk of thousands or even milions (and yes, even "kerzillions") of players  being able to interact simultaneously  in different parts of a persistant "world".

 

How many games these days just run one instance of a world? One server? How many of these have thousands or even millions of players on there?

 

How many MMOs actually use multiple servers/instances instead? And while overall the number of gamers may make up a million (which game?), the number of gamers per server obviously falls way below that.

 

So, I'm sorry, as sad as the fact is that SWTOR doesn't have all streets of all planets on servers crowded with players, I don't think the numbers are that low to justify calling it an MO... ;-)

 

It's probably a topic that deserves it's own special category. Frankly I don't think 90% of the games being reviewed on MMORPG.com are classified as MMO's but people think if more than 100-odd players are able to log into it then even Realm of the Mad God is an MMO... which seems nutty to me.

To me if it's not like Ultima Online or SWG with large 'sandbox' elements it's just not an MMO. Why play a game with max. 50 people in an instance, I could just setup a Quake server and get the same effect. Even if the game has 1 millions subscriptions if I can only see 5-man groups and max. 50 per instance the 1 million means nothing to me...

Originally posted by aktalat

It's probably a topic that deserves it's own special category. Frankly I don't think 90% of the games being reviewed on MMORPG.com are classified as MMO's but people think if more than 100-odd players are able to log into it then even Realm of the Mad God is an MMO... which seems nutty to me.

To me if it's not like Ultima Online or SWG with large 'sandbox' elements it's just not an MMO. Why play a game with max. 50 people in an instance, I could just setup a Quake server and get the same effect. Even if the game has 1 millions subscriptions if I can only see 5-man groups and max. 50 per instance the 1 million means nothing to me...

Exactly how many players are around you does not make a MMO, MMOs are also about the social aspect and the important thing is that you see other players, not that they are in the same zone, hiding in guildhalls and houses.¨

Sure, those games are good examples of MMOs but so are M59, EQ and AC.  And frankly GW2 as well, you get a lot of people around you there with the same goal as you, or the opposite. 300 players in a massive PvP battle is more than I seen in many sandboxes.

Saying that a MMO must be sandboxy just isn't fair, themeparks can be as massive as a sandbox. I like both types of games, but the important things for me is the social interactions between players. I don't hate instances but when you use to many it takes away the massive feeling of the game.

TORs problem as I see it is that it isn´t social enough. You rarely share goals with a bunch of people and work together, you mainly soloplay with an occasional flashpoint. TOR needs to change that or the game will keep dropping.

MMOs used to be driven by cooperation, instead of being just about you. I don't say that MMOs shouldn't have solocontent, but I say it needs a lot of content that makes the players work together, no matter if it is PvE or PvP.

Think about the best point you guys have had in a MMO, all mine are together with other players.

Originally posted by aktalat

To me if it's not like Ultima Online or SWG with large 'sandbox' elements it's just not an MMO. \

 That doesn't even make any sense. The whole reason people created terms like themepark and sandbox was to classify and define different mmos.

So it certainly doesn't have to have sandbox elements simply to be one.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by aktalat

It's probably a topic that deserves it's own special category. Frankly I don't think 90% of the games being reviewed on MMORPG.com are classified as MMO's but people think if more than 100-odd players are able to log into it then even Realm of the Mad God is an MMO... which seems nutty to me.

To me if it's not like Ultima Online or SWG with large 'sandbox' elements it's just not an MMO. Why play a game with max. 50 people in an instance, I could just setup a Quake server and get the same effect. Even if the game has 1 millions subscriptions if I can only see 5-man groups and max. 50 per instance the 1 million means nothing to me...

 

TORs problem as I see it is that it isn´t social enough. You rarely share goals with a bunch of people and work together, you mainly soloplay with an occasional flashpoint. TOR needs to change that or the game will keep dropping.

MMOs used to be driven by cooperation, instead of being just about you. I don't say that MMOs shouldn't have solocontent, but I say it needs a lot of content that makes the players work together, no matter if it is PvE or PvP.

Think about the best point you guys have had in a MMO, all mine are together with other players.

I think youre on to something here, but I want to expand on it saying that if the activities are not fun, they won't be fun alone or in a group. SWTOR fails because the design is not good enough for solo play nor group activities.

This is the cancer of the game because SWTOR doesn't do either one well enough.

Some games excel at solo PvE but have no PvP, others are PvP legends but have no PvE game. SWTOR does not stand out in any of these areas. It's really a repeated formula that is not outstanding in any way. It has no hooks.

Originally posted by Loke666

Exactly how many players are around you does not make a MMO, MMOs are also about the social aspect and the important thing is that you see other players, not that they are in the same zone, hiding in guildhalls and houses.¨

Sure, those games are good examples of MMOs but so are M59, EQ and AC.  And frankly GW2 as well, you get a lot of people around you there with the same goal as you, or the opposite. 300 players in a massive PvP battle is more than I seen in many sandboxes.

Saying that a MMO must be sandboxy just isn't fair, themeparks can be as massive as a sandbox. I like both types of games, but the important things for me is the social interactions between players. I don't hate instances but when you use to many it takes away the massive feeling of the game.

TORs problem as I see it is that it isn´t social enough. You rarely share goals with a bunch of people and work together, you mainly soloplay with an occasional flashpoint. TOR needs to change that or the game will keep dropping.

MMOs used to be driven by cooperation, instead of being just about you. I don't say that MMOs shouldn't have solocontent, but I say it needs a lot of content that makes the players work together, no matter if it is PvE or PvP.

Think about the best point you guys have had in a MMO, all mine are together with other players.

You make a mistake of necessitating social interaction with having many other players on yur screen.

Just one example: if theres a strong crafting system, and you need to interact with crafters, and crafetrs need to interact with many players to be successful (actually sell their stuff) that could be much more "socially interactive" than having 300 randoms on your screen even if actual crafting process is done solo from start to end.

Point is not in large numbers on your screen, its about how and why people interact with each other.

Having gear grinds is most anti-social thing in todays MMOs. It not only necessitates and encourages anti-social behaviour, it actually divides playerbase and makes them unable to group together.

Originally posted by Loke666

Exactly how many players are around you does not make a MMO, MMOs are also about the social aspect and the important thing is that you see other players, not that they are in the same zone, hiding in guildhalls and houses.¨ 

Sure, those games are good examples of MMOs but so are M59, EQ and AC.  And frankly GW2 as well, you get a lot of people around you there with the same goal as you, or the opposite. 300 players in a massive PvP battle is more than I seen in many sandboxes.

Saying that a MMO must be sandboxy just isn't fair, themeparks can be as massive as a sandbox. I like both types of games, but the important things for me is the social interactions between players. I don't hate instances but when you use to many it takes away the massive feeling of the game.

TORs problem as I see it is that it isn´t social enough. You rarely share goals with a bunch of people and work together, you mainly soloplay with an occasional flashpoint. TOR needs to change that or the game will keep dropping.

MMOs used to be driven by cooperation, instead of being just about you. I don't say that MMOs shouldn't have solocontent, but I say it needs a lot of content that makes the players work together, no matter if it is PvE or PvP.

Think about the best point you guys have had in a MMO, all mine are together with other players.

But isn't that a general problem these days?

In TSW I didn't feel any real motivation to team up, actually, from what I've seen very few did.

Despite the game actually being well suited for it...

maybe it's just because the Kingsmouth beta was constructed to be a less group-y experience?

On the other hand, GW2 is even worse: they completely take out the need to do any social interaction as their system is a simple "be there and you're part of the group" setup in PvE.

In PvP... well... I'm afraid that also may still need to go a long way: most EBers will just go where the action is, unless they are part of a group that has a specific task in mind e.g. stop caravan.

And these large "hordes", well, I don't know why the word "clusterfuck" comes to mind...?

Now, united as an army i.e. really organizing the attack, having a strategy, yeah... but I don't think most PUGs can be bothered with that or even the concept of asking other people to join together... 

But see, the thing is that you don't really need special content to get people to play together, well, I mean it helps... but I mean there is no reason why players shouldn't be able to generate their own "RvR" match somewhere in some contested territory on some planet. Just make sure it doesn't potentially bother any gamers not interested in sharing in the event, maybe spice thing up by setting the whole thing up straight on top of a world boss, and Bob's your Auntie, you have combat socializing.

Now, of course non-combat sozializing is different... but can also be done: out of all the cantinas and other clubs, try to establish one as the "in" place where all the players can meet. Maybe even try to use a neutral place.

If cross faction channels or just at least one open channel was possible (as well as inter-faction money/item transfer) you can bet on it that over short or long you may find any number of shady dealings and usual bar fun going on: bit of brawling, bit of putting out a contract on the head of that one guy from your own faction that has been ninjaing your stuff for a week now, etc.

Of course, the classic socializing of the grand old days i.e. getting together for a wedding or a party under the stars, well, not really sure if you can interest today's gamers in such a "waste of time", afterall they only have 1.25 hrs that night to play and with queuing for PvP, well, time is tight and can't be lost on such social stuff... ;-)

Some people get very angry if an MMORPG has solo quests or stories (nevermind that it is absolutely possible to bring others into any of them).  They get furious if it is possible to level to cap solo; all they see is red.  They are blinded by their rage and can't register the quests, areas in the game, instances and numerous rewards that are multi-player only.  PVP is also a solo activity because no one ever stops to talk about the weather or their favorite color schemes for patio furniture in them.  LFG tools kill communities because they make it too easy to access too many strangers without having to share facebook profiles first.

The part I'm lost on: if they got their wishes and the only things that could be accomplished other than raiding required groups of 2-5... how would that be a MMO?  Groups of 2-5 for most activities is massive?

Bye Bye Georg Zoeller......   i hope some importand people read my post before acting :)

throw them all out and start over..

Originally posted by mindw0rk

Originally posted by Chrome1980

Originally posted by mindw0rk

Full loot pvp..lolz

Lol or not but full loot was always big part of TES series. But nooo, they cant do it since its too risky and WoW doesnt have one. Better to play safe...

TES is a single player games so how the hell full loot was only exclusively big part of TES? every single player game has full loot.

/facepalm.

In Skyrim from any humanoid you loot everything he wears, weapons that he actually used and other stuff that he could carry. 

Remind me how many single player games have this kind of loot system

Many of my friends who are huge elder scroll fans would rage quit in an instant if they were fully looted. It is a totally different beast when you are asking a single player open world RPG to fully translate into a MMORPG. Most people who play elder scrolls I'd imagine would not be interested in hardcore PvP considering majority of their fans enjoy a solo PvE experience over a decade now.

Obviously I'm not talking for all TES fans but I'd imagine a sizeable chunk wouldn't like the feature.