1) A rogue can choose to dedicate his skills to just trap laying, but that would be very restricing for a rouge since he has potential to do a much more wide variety of things.

2) Yes, stealth and dexterity comes into play with a rouge. Dexterity giving him the ability to sneak better, or being nimbled figner enough to play a bard instrument. You are right in your thinking those are rogue skills also.. *Ryu is not a rouge*

3) Rangers = Woodsman, Animal Companions, tracking, sticks to the woods, protector of the forest.. Engineers = Constructing devices, golems, would proably stick to large cities with lots of merchants and things to get the supplies he needed for his inventions.

4) Rogues have many tricks up their sleave, if they come upon some device that they have a good chance of figuring out how to use it. An Engineer can actually craft and produce they items he wants on his utility belt. A rouge would not be able to actually make these devices but would be knowledgable enough to use them without blowing his face and hands off..

NP

You have to realzie that every game is going to use their own contructed lore for the most part and will handle their classes accordingly. As more and more games attempt to get away from the "Holy Trinity" and the basic rulesets that have been established in games like D&D you might start to see alot more blending of these lines of classes like rouges, and mages..

Not every games rouge is going to be handled to the same in every other game. Skyram is a game that allows you to do everything. So its hard to really say you've made a rogue or a mage when your wearing full platemail and carying a great sword. Since a true mage wouldn't be caught dead in some platemail..

Originally posted by Opapanax

1) A rouge can choose to dedicate his skills to just trap laying, but that would be very restricing for a rouge since he has potential to do a much more wide variety of things.

2) Yes, stealth and dexterity comes into play with a rouge. Dexterity giving him the ability to sneak better, or being nimbled figner enough to play a bard instrument. You are right in your thinking those are rouge skills also.. *Ryu is not a rouge*

3) Rangers = Woodsman, Animal Companions, tracking, sticks to the woods, protector of the forest.. Engineers = Constructing devices, golems, would proably stick to large cities with lots of merchants and things to get the supplies he needed for his inventions.

4) Rouges have many tricks up their sleave, if they come upon some device that they have a good chance of figuring out how to use it. An Engineer can actually craft and produce they items he wants on his utility belt. A rouge would not be able to actually make these devices but would be knowledgable enough to use them without blowing his face and hands off..

NP

You have to realzie that every game is going to use their own contructed lore for the most part and will handle their classes accordingly. As more and more games attempt to get away from the "Holy Trinity" and the basic rulesets that have been established in games like D&D you might start to see alot more blending of these lines of classes like rouges, and mages..

Not every games rouge is going to be handled to the same in every other game. Skyram is a game that allows you to do everything. So its hard to really say you've made a rouge or a mage when your wearing full platemail and carying a great sword. Since a true mage wouldn't be caught dead in some platemail..

1) I'm just confused why the article stated that rogues can be stealthy mages as well.

2) Well, when I think of rangers, I don't really think about the lore behind the class, I think about what they do. So I generally think of rangers as just archers and engineers as people who use guns and put out turrets like in guild wars 2. So if that's how you see the engineer, would a rogue be like that? I understand that a rogue won't be the guy constructing devices. Then again, would that be possible? After all, the rogue is the one that makes all the traps and has the ability to be a dedicated trap layer and defense grid manager. So, they can be engineers as well?

I know that every game has their own lore. There are huge differences between games like Mass Effect and WoW. That's why I don't really look at the lore. I see the similarities in combat and what they do. So, I see the rogue as the sneaky type and the assassin and whatnot, and I correspond that to things like snipers, hackers, Splinter Cell, that kind of stuff. I also see the similarity between the rogue and agile fighters like in Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden. So, that's the reason why I see similarities between rangers and engineers and rogues.

Yeah, Skyrim is a bad example to use. You do can make your class whatever you want in that game.

In video gaming I think "rogue" has come to often represent an agile hybrid fighter/assassin who may also employ gadgets (including traps) and/or a selection of spells (particularly illusionary or shadow magic) to facilitate capturing or killing targets.

In a more traditional role-playing sense a rogue to me is a character who operates outside of generally accepted codes of law, principle, and/or procedure, particularly if they have been dictated by those in positions of authority (legal authority in particular, but could be religious, martial, or magical authority as well).

Where "thief" carries the connotation of one who violates the law for personal gain, the term rogue has a broad enough meaning that it accommodates characters who defy authority because they believe they are doing the right thing, those who are genuinely dastardly, and those who misbehave because they enjoy causing mischief or chaos or simply like the attention. In this sense, there is no set of skills that defines a rogue, but rather a mentality and way of conducting one's business.  IMO it's actually the versatility of the term that originally brought it into the role-playing lexicon as it could be used to encapsulate a number of different skills and playstyles (thief, assassin, swashbuckler, scout, bard, illusionist, etc.).

Originally posted by Ranger101

Just a few questions I want clarified.

1) How come some mmorpgs feature bards as part of the rogue class such as in Rift? It confuses me because I generally think of the rogue as the sneaky type, the assassin, or treasure hunters and thieves.

2) Are rogues like the jack of all trades? Do they generally have a utility belt where they pull out guns, knives, bombs? What differs them from engineer classes/archetypes?

3) Can stealthy mage types be rogues too? Or are they just mages?

4) I was reading this article on mmohut: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmo-classes-playing-a-rogue

It describes the rogue as being a defense grid and trap layer manager. Is that what a rogue can be? Is that referring to rogues putting down traps, not just being the tower defense guy setting up walls and things?

thanks for your help.

1. If we look at the historical definition of the word you'll see why a rogue takes on so many faces. It's a fairly generic term.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rogue

Some key terms:

Scoundrel

Dishonest

Mischievous

Cheat

Non-controllable

A bard can be a rogue, but a rogue isn't necessarily a bard. So if a game needed a catch-all term to encompass assassin, bard, and swashbuckler, using the term 'rogue' solves your problems.

2. Rogues can have utility items, but engineers are focused on using those items. So jack of all trades is an appropriate thing to say about rogues. Johnny Depp's Captain Jack Sparrow character  was a rogue in almost every sense.

3. A rogue might employ magic if it suits their purpose, but they do not dedicate their lives in arcane studies as mages do. Rogues are not really scholars.  A stealthy mage is just a mage who likes to sneak about.

Think of it this way, when a mage needs to do something, their primary method of accomplishing that task is through the use of magic. A rogue might utlize magic as an augment to existing abilities, but never the focus.

4. The article wasn't displaying so I can't comment and I have no cluse how rogues and tower defense relate.

but doesn't batman make his own equipment? In the game, you see him analyzing the biological matter and making his own cure for it. And I'm pretty sure he's knowledgeable in chemistry and engineering as well.

Ranger is channeling the spirit of Ishida. :) 

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Being a Rogue isnt about what tools you have, its about how you use them.

A rogue relies on an oblique approach to dealing with problems. He is the character that avoids direct confrontation while looking for an indirect means of dealing with obstacles.

This means that a ranger, relying on traps and sniping, may be a rogue.

It means that a mage who relies on spells of deceit and misdirection may be a rogue.

It means that an engineer, using traps or focusing on undermining an opponents efforts or preparations, may be a rogue.

It means that an assassin using mobility and stealth to allow him to bypass his target's defenses may be a rogue.

 

 

 Your point is good but I don't see it that way... I see it in reverse..

A rouge that chooses to use a mage spell to hide or teleport maybe..

A rouge that chooses to use devices made by an engineer..

A rouge that's profecient in bows and crossbows who likes to snipe his targets out..

A mage is a mage man.. By theroy a mage must dedicate his body and mind to the arcane to be a master of it.. Otherwise he's just some rouge who learned a couple fireball spells on the upchance..

An engineer is going to be severely dedicated to his craft as well. I won't go into it too much as I'm not an expert in any but just an informed party, but I see an engineer being able to build all types of wild contraptions to do various things.. I don't see a rouge doing this.. I see him finding such item and after some studying being able to use that device..

A full fledge ranger will use his ability to hide and use traps, but as a rouge he's not going to be all woodsman out with a axe and wolf companion..

/Different strokes for different folks perhaps.. Just how I see it..

Magic use does not prevent a character from being a rogue.

Lets use an old school example here...Dungeons and Dragons (not DDO).

A mage who chooses spells such as invisibility, knock (unlocks doors and the like), gaseous form to get past gates, sleep spells to get past guards, charm spells to convince other guards to assist him, and so on...is a rogue.

A mage that just uses fireballs to nuke enemy formations is not. But then again that is one of the most inefficient uses of magic in a roleplaying game.

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Being a Rogue isnt about what tools you have, its about how you use them.

A rogue relies on an oblique approach to dealing with problems. He is the character that avoids direct confrontation while looking for an indirect means of dealing with obstacles.

This means that a ranger, relying on traps and sniping, may be a rogue.

It means that a mage who relies on spells of deceit and misdirection may be a rogue.

It means that an engineer, using traps or focusing on undermining an opponents efforts or preparations, may be a rogue.

It means that an assassin using mobility and stealth to allow him to bypass his target's defenses may be a rogue.

 

 

 Your point is good but I don't see it that way... I see it in reverse..

A rouge that chooses to use a mage spell to hide or teleport maybe..

A rouge that chooses to use devices made by an engineer..

A rouge that's profecient in bows and crossbows who likes to snipe his targets out..

A mage is a mage man.. By theroy a mage must dedicate his body and mind to the arcane to be a master of it.. Otherwise he's just some rouge who learned a couple fireball spells on the upchance..

An engineer is going to be severely dedicated to his craft as well. I won't go into it too much as I'm not an expert in any but just an informed party, but I see an engineer being able to build all types of wild contraptions to do various things.. I don't see a rouge doing this.. I see him finding such item and after some studying being able to use that device..

A full fledge ranger will use his ability to hide and use traps, but as a rouge he's not going to be all woodsman out with a axe and wolf companion..

/Different strokes for different folks perhaps.. Just how I see it..

Magic use does not prevent a character from being a rogue.

 

Lets use an old school example here...Dungeons and Dragons (not DDO).

A mage who chooses spells such as invisibility, knock (unlocks doors and the like), gaseous form to get past gates, sleep spells to get past guards, charm spells to convince other guards to assist him, and so on...is a rogue.

 

A mage that just uses fireballs to nuke enemy formations is not. But then again that is one of the most inefficient uses of magic in a roleplaying game.

I agree that magic use doesn't disqualify them from being a rogue. I always loved to RP my rouges with a bit of magic touch. Usually through some sorcseror skills.

1. Rift has only 4 classes, and realized typically full feature classes like Bard through subclassing.

2. No. Rogues are traditionally experts, i.e. people who know a lot of skills, like stealth, opening locks, setting and disarming traps, pickpocket, backstabbing etc. There is no commonly accepted "Jack of all Trades" class.

3. Rogues are not mages.

4. The concept of Rogues in MMOs is typically different from classic fantasy. As there is little use for skills in MMOs, Rogues are usually changed into a melee dps class with some dirty fighting mixed in between.

1) I'm just confused why the article stated that rogues can be stealthy mages as well.

2) Well, when I think of rangers, I don't really think about the lore behind the class, I think about what they do. So I generally think of rangers as just archers and engineers as people who use guns and put out turrets like in guild wars 2. So if that's how you see the engineer, would a rogue be like that? I understand that a rogue won't be the guy constructing devices. Then again, would that be possible? After all, the rogue is the one that makes all the traps and has the ability to be a dedicated trap layer and defense grid manager. So, they can be engineers as well?

I know that every game has their own lore. There are huge differences between games like Mass Effect and WoW. That's why I don't really look at the lore. I see the similarities in combat and what they do. So, I see the rogue as the sneaky type and the assassin and whatnot, and I correspond that to things like snipers, hackers, Splinter Cell, that kind of stuff. I also see the similarity between the rogue and agile fighters like in Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden. So, that's the reason why I see similarities between rangers and engineers and rogues.

1. Because Thom Merrilyn throws knives, and has atleast 50 pounds of knives hidden through out his body!

2-4.  Rogues fit the melee damage archetype and anyone who has read a fantasy novel will immediately recognize what it's trying to be. 

PS: "Rouge" lolololol

1) I'm just confused why the article stated that rogues can be stealthy mages as well.

2) Well, when I think of rangers, I don't really think about the lore behind the class, I think about what they do. So I generally think of rangers as just archers and engineers as people who use guns and put out turrets like in guild wars 2. So if that's how you see the engineer, would a rogue be like that? I understand that a rogue won't be the guy constructing devices. Then again, would that be possible? After all, the rogue is the one that makes all the traps and has the ability to be a dedicated trap layer and defense grid manager. So, they can be engineers as well?

I know that every game has their own lore. There are huge differences between games like Mass Effect and WoW. That's why I don't really look at the lore. I see the similarities in combat and what they do. So, I see the rogue as the sneaky type and the assassin and whatnot, and I correspond that to things like snipers, hackers, Splinter Cell, that kind of stuff. I also see the similarity between the rogue and agile fighters like in Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden. So, that's the reason why I see similarities between rangers and engineers and rogues.

Originally posted by Ranger101

Just a few questions I want clarified.

1) How come some mmorpgs feature bards as part of the rogue class such as in Rift? It confuses me because I generally think of the rogue as the sneaky type, the assassin, or treasure hunters and thieves.

2) Are rogues like the jack of all trades? Do they generally have a utility belt where they pull out guns, knives, bombs? What differs them from engineer classes/archetypes?

3) Can stealthy mage types be rogues too? Or are they just mages?

4) I was reading this article on mmohut: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmo-classes-playing-a-rogue

It describes the rogue as being a defense grid and trap layer manager. Is that what a rogue can be? Is that referring to rogues putting down traps, not just being the tower defense guy setting up walls and things?

thanks for your help.

In essence it's something all classes face becasue what a class does is forces what you are into a specific combat role which should not be.

Lets say I'm a bard. What does that mean? Does it mean I use daggers and can only wear cloth or leather armor? No........ It means I play music. It's how I interact with the world and it's how the world sees me. That does not mean I don't go around at night wearing full platemail brandishing a two handed silver battle axe killing vampires and werewolves. It simply means I play an instrument and or sing.

Lets say I'm a thief. What does that mean? It means exactly that, I'm a thief. I steal things. Wether I stealth around and pick locks or not should have no bearing on how I fight. I could be an arhcer with a pet thats a thief, my pet could be a monkey that helps me unlock windows and doors so that I can get into places. I could be a thief that steals things by brute force. Being a thief is how I interact with the world and determines how others interact with me. It should not define my combat role and etc.

To simplify development and balancing developers use classes which shoehorn everyone into a simplified version of what you want to be or what they want you to be.

Thief, Bard, Archer end up lumped together because they rely on similar stats and so get stuck with similar limitations, abilities and combat roles. Since this happens they all get called rogues.

It changes from game to game, but the principle is still adhered to.

so what's the main difference between rogues and engineers other than the fact that engineers create their own weapons?

Let's say the engineer doesn't create his own weapons. Would he be like the rogue then?

In this sense, I'm not just talking about stealth. I see the thief as an agile fighter or a trickster or a master strategist which can even be an archer.

And so if rogues can be dedicated trap layer and defense grid managers, does that mean they can just be the tower defense guy building walls and contraptions and defense weapons?

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Being a Rogue isnt about what tools you have, its about how you use them.

A rogue relies on an oblique approach to dealing with problems. He is the character that avoids direct confrontation while looking for an indirect means of dealing with obstacles.

This means that a ranger, relying on traps and sniping, may be a rogue.

It means that a mage who relies on spells of deceit and misdirection may be a rogue.

It means that an engineer, using traps or focusing on undermining an opponents efforts or preparations, may be a rogue.

It means that an assassin using mobility and stealth to allow him to bypass his target's defenses may be a rogue.

 

 

 Your point is good but I don't see it that way... I see it in reverse..

A rouge that chooses to use a mage spell to hide or teleport maybe..

A rouge that chooses to use devices made by an engineer..

A rouge that's profecient in bows and crossbows who likes to snipe his targets out..

A mage is a mage man.. By theroy a mage must dedicate his body and mind to the arcane to be a master of it.. Otherwise he's just some rouge who learned a couple fireball spells on the upchance..

An engineer is going to be severely dedicated to his craft as well. I won't go into it too much as I'm not an expert in any but just an informed party, but I see an engineer being able to build all types of wild contraptions to do various things.. I don't see a rouge doing this.. I see him finding such item and after some studying being able to use that device..

A full fledge ranger will use his ability to hide and use traps, but as a rouge he's not going to be all woodsman out with a axe and wolf companion..

/Different strokes for different folks perhaps.. Just how I see it..

Magic use does not prevent a character from being a rogue.

 

Lets use an old school example here...Dungeons and Dragons (not DDO).

A mage who chooses spells such as invisibility, knock (unlocks doors and the like), gaseous form to get past gates, sleep spells to get past guards, charm spells to convince other guards to assist him, and so on...is a rogue.

 

A mage that just uses fireballs to nuke enemy formations is not. But then again that is one of the most inefficient uses of magic in a roleplaying game.

I agree that magic use doesn't disqualify them from being a rouge. I always loved to RP my rouges with a bit of magic touch. Usually through some sorcseror skills.

I thought a rouge was a type of cosmetic...

Originally posted by Dawnstar

I thought a rouge was a type of cosmetic...

That happends reliably in every rogue discussion.

Originally posted by Edeus

1. Because Thom Merrilyn throws knives, and has atleast 50 pounds of knives hidden through out his body!

2-4.  Rogues fit the melee damage archetype and anyone who has read a fantasy novel will immediately recognize what it's trying to be. 

PS: "Rouge" lolololol

Omg.. You just don't know how long I've been fighting spelling R-o-g-u-e like that.. LoL

I've gone back and found most of them I think..

Thanks for catching it..lol Was everywhere..

---

Originally posted by Ranger101 Just a few questions I want clarified. 1) How come some mmorpgs feature bards as part of the rogue class such as in Rift? It confuses me because I generally think of the rogue as the sneaky type, the assassin, or treasure hunters and thieves. 2) Are rogues like the jack of all trades? Do they generally have a utility belt where they pull out guns, knives, bombs? What differs them from engineer classes/archetypes? 3) Can stealthy mage types be rogues too? Or are they just mages? 4) I was reading this article on mmohut: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmo-classes-playing-a-rogue It describes the rogue as being a defense grid and trap layer manager. Is that what a rogue can be? Is that referring to rogues putting down traps, not just being the tower defense guy setting up walls and things? thanks for your help.

---

Bard took a more rogue like gameplay because apart from throwing poetry around, well they needed something to fight with, and hitting with a guitar wouldn't do much. NO but honestly its a very long time bards and rogues are related even in ad&d they are part of the rogue kind of class, mostly because they live in the street like thief i guess, so they share something here. But ye i'm a bit with you here, they shouldn't be that related. The only mmo bard i know of that wasn't a rogue per say was in Ultima online, they really had they very own skill that were taken from the orpheus myth, he could turn monsters against each other or make peace with them playing his music, honestly that is the only bard worth mentioning in the whole computer game rpg, in pen&paper people used to role play them with poetry and such, but obvious its something you can do much in computer games. So the rest of rpg all have bard working like thiefs more or less.

Alchemist are more of a magery type of class imo, in fact more of the crafter side of magic user, the one that make pot and throw them, like explosion pot. ENgineer? the only game i can think of with this class is GW2, usually its more of the alchemist, but they are not many games with this type of class.

Mage usually use invisibility spells rather than skills, so its quiet different. But you could probably mix those in a good skill based game rather than class based. But where will you find such game now?

They are all kind of rogues, from pickpocket to critical based dd, and as you said bards, i really don't think you can squeeze them into a kind of gameplay, they are tons of rogue like class. I think i mentioned in an other thread i played an assassin in an mmo that were like tank with evasion that would keep agro because of their insane critical. I didn't read the article of mmohut tbh, but if they made the article like they do their first game impression vids, then you might try to find more and better sources to fuel your opinion. I mean they are ok, but kind of superficial.

Originally posted by Requiamer

 

---

Originally posted by Ranger101 Just a few questions I want clarified. 1) How come some mmorpgs feature bards as part of the rogue class such as in Rift? It confuses me because I generally think of the rogue as the sneaky type, the assassin, or treasure hunters and thieves. 2) Are rogues like the jack of all trades? Do they generally have a utility belt where they pull out guns, knives, bombs? What differs them from engineer classes/archetypes? 3) Can stealthy mage types be rogues too? Or are they just mages? 4) I was reading this article on mmohut: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmo-classes-playing-a-rogue It describes the rogue as being a defense grid and trap layer manager. Is that what a rogue can be? Is that referring to rogues putting down traps, not just being the tower defense guy setting up walls and things? thanks for your help.

---

 

Bard took a more rogue like gameplay because apart from throwing poetry around, well they needed something to fight with, and hitting with a guitar wouldn't do much. NO but honestly its a very long time bards and rogues are related even in ad&d they are part of the rogue kind of class, mostly because they live in the street like thief i guess, so they share something here. But ye i'm a bit with you here, they shouldn't be that related. The only mmo bard i know of that wasn't a rogue per say was in Ultima online, they really had they very own skill that were taken from the orpheus myth, he could turn monsters against each other or make peace with them playing his music, honestly that is the only bard worth mentioning in the whole computer game rpg, in pen&paper people used to role play them with poetry and such, but obvious its something you can do much in computer games. So the rest of rpg all have bard working like thiefs more or less.

Alchemist are more of a magery type of class imo, in fact more of the crafter side of magic user, the one that make pot and throw them, like explosion pot. ENgineer? the only game i can think of with this class is GW2, usually its more of the alchemist, but they are not many games with this type of class.

Mage usually use invisibility spells rather than skills, so its quiet different. But you could probably mix those in a good skill based game rather than class based. But where will you find such game now?

 

They are all kind of rogues, from pickpocket to critical based dd, and as you said bards, i really don't think you can squeeze them into a kind of gameplay, they are tons of rogue like class. I think i mentioned in an other thread i played an assassin in an mmo that were like tank with evasion that would keep agro because of their insane critical. I didn't read the article of mmohut tbh, but if they made the article like they do their first game impression vids, then you might try to find more and better sources to fuel your opinion. I mean they are ok, but kind of superficial.

so what's the main difference between rogues and engineers other than the fact that engineers create their own weapons?

Let's say the engineer doesn't create his own weapons. Would he be like the rogue then?

In this sense, I'm not just talking about stealth. I see the thief as an agile fighter or a trickster or a master strategist which can even be an archer.

And so if rogues can be dedicated trap layer and defense grid managers, does that mean they can just be the tower defense guy building walls and contraptions and defense weapons?

any ideas?