I've been reading in an attempt to understand the differences, pros and cons of theme park and sand box mmos.

My question is: Are they mutually exclusive?

Is it not possible to have a theme park mmo with such extensive resource/environment manipulation mechanics  that it could function as a sandbox? Likewise, couldn't a sandbox have optional yet engaging quests to follow if you'd like some direction and story to your exploration?

Or is there something I'm missing/oversimplifying about the two that prevents them from being combined into a hybrid? Personally, I think combining the two is a key to solving some of the cons that inhabit them seperately. It's a daunting task though.

They're not mutally exclusive... see ArcheAge for proof of concept.

They are two of several components that make up almost all MMOs. Most MMOs focus on one aspect of design more than the others. Some examples:

WOW - heavily themepark content

Second Life - heavily sandbox content

Red Light Center - heavily social content

Each one of those is comprised of all three components but places more emphasis on one than the others. 

Originally posted by Loktofeit

They are two of several components that make up almost all MMOs. Most MMOs focus on one aspect of design more than the others. Some examples:

WOW - heavily themepark content

Second Life - heavily sandbox content

Red Light Center - heavily social content

Each one of those is comprised of all three components but places more emphasis on one than the others. 

I agree with this. I also don't see a game exclusively as themepark or sandbox. I think it can be combined.

You could create a mod in Minecraft that adds lineair themeparky quests. This doesn't stop you from blowing up the quest npc though or dig a hole beneath him, fill it with lava and use a piston to push him in it. Or multiple times if the modcreator made sure it respawns as countermeasure :)

I just realised that Minecraft is the perfect game to take your revenge on some annoying questnpc.

Originally posted by learis1

I've been reading in an attempt to understand the differences, pros and cons of theme park and sand box mmos.

 

My question is: Are they mutually exclusive?

 

Is it not possible to have a theme park mmo with such extensive resource/environment manipulation mechanics  that it could function as a sandbox? Likewise, couldn't a sandbox have optional yet engaging quests to follow if you'd like some direction and story to your exploration?

Or is there something I'm missing/oversimplifying about the two that prevents them from being combined into a hybrid? Personally, I think combining the two is a key to solving some of the cons that inhabit them seperately. It's a daunting task though.

This is not thought well. You limit choices with out reeson.

EvE gets away with it pretty nicely.   And have been working on PvE content.

I mean I'm pretty sure far to many people over there don't see that the entire design for the game was based on the market over everything else.  Even the fact that it's a sandbox.

Originally posted by learis1

I've been reading in an attempt to understand the differences, pros and cons of theme park and sand box mmos.

 

My question is: Are they mutually exclusive?

 

Is it not possible to have a theme park mmo with such extensive resource/environment manipulation mechanics  that it could function as a sandbox? Likewise, couldn't a sandbox have optional yet engaging quests to follow if you'd like some direction and story to your exploration?

Or is there something I'm missing/oversimplifying about the two that prevents them from being combined into a hybrid? Personally, I think combining the two is a key to solving some of the cons that inhabit them seperately. It's a daunting task though.

The tough part is that no one (and I mean no one) is on the same page as far as definitions of themepark and sandbox. You mentioned environment manipulation mechanics as though that makes a game sandboxy. To me, that's got nothing to do with sandboxes. A game's a themepark if it is designed around a particular way to play, and it's a sandbox if content is not explicitly put into the game but emerges naturally from its mechanics.

So even if you put a lot of engaging quests into a sandbox, that doesn't make it any more like a themepark if you feel like you can ignore them. It's not the quests that make a game a themepark, it's the fact that the whole game is based around the assumption that you are going to do the quests. It's the whole point of the game, so to speak. In reality, there aren't very many mandatory quests in themeparks, are there? You do them because the game intends for you to do them, not because it forces you to.

And now toss my post in the garbage because it really only applies to my definitions of the terms, which aren't the same as everyone else's. Such is life. :)

A real sandbox game will offer you everything that a themepark game offers.

No, they aren't mutually exclusive.  One is just about giving you the freedom to exist in a virtual world, the other is about  moving through the virtual world on your way to "endgame".

No they are not.

BUT

Such hybrid would be well hybrid and it would be designed diffrently and could lack few elements of "hardcore" sandbox or themepark.

Still it is very much possible to make a game with sandbox and themepark elements.

As a gamer, Sandbox & Themepark features should not be exclusive to each other.  But with what MMORPG developers have been doing in practice, it is.  It's been going that way for alot of years now with no signs of letting up.

Originally posted by Warmaker

As a gamer, Sandbox & Themepark features should not be exclusive to each other.  But with what MMORPG developers have been doing in practice, it is.  It's been going that way for alot of years now with no signs of letting up.

SWG had both but that game was ahead of its time or from the future because I haven't seen anything release with as much mechanics since...

Depend how you define them, i think those words kind of lost their original meaning over time. But sandbox refer to sandbox type of developing software method, and if you keep that in mind, then yes they are kind of exclusive.

But if you think about sandbox as the list of "sandbox" features, then you can probably mix them. But you know there is a difference between a sandbox game that is coded like a sandbox software, and a game with sandbox features. For me they are only very few real sandbox mmo, but a bunch of pretenders that only use some features but in fact they are nothing like sandbox.

Absolutely not, but it is the sandbox crowds attitude towards any kind of structured fun that keeps a decent sandbox from being made. Never met a more closed minded community (in gaming anyway) than the sandbox one.

This Thread: MMORPGs in diagrams

EvE: Exemplar Sandbox: Super Set

WoW: Exemplar Themepark: Exclusive Sets

Reference: User: Rokoto

I love how the bottom image makes the acronym for "Open World Interaction" look like "Ow!"  That's the kick in the nuts this genre has suffered going almost 8 years now.

Originally posted by MumboJumbo

This Thread: MMORPGs in diagrams

...

Reference: User: Rokoto

That's a crazy weird way to look at things. For one, what does he mean by open World Interaction? Two, since this is social spheres, is he saying that the auction house crowd is a different social sphere from the PvE crowd? Three, if it's the social spheres, where do roleplaying, politics and metagaming fall into that?

Owi!!!! LOL!!!!

That's funny. It's true though the "open world" means very little once leveling is done. 

Besides doing dailies and gathering materials which are solo activities people most play lobby games in WoW.

Nothing wrong with that imo, its just kind of odd that the traditional, classic mmo formula evolved into that.

Depends who you ask; same answer as most questions involving those terms.

Originally posted by learis1

I've been reading in an attempt to understand the differences, pros and cons of theme park and sand box mmos.

 

My question is: Are they mutually exclusive?

 

Is it not possible to have a theme park mmo with such extensive resource/environment manipulation mechanics  that it could function as a sandbox? Likewise, couldn't a sandbox have optional yet engaging quests to follow if you'd like some direction and story to your exploration?

Or is there something I'm missing/oversimplifying about the two that prevents them from being combined into a hybrid? Personally, I think combining the two is a key to solving some of the cons that inhabit them seperately. It's a daunting task though.

Mutually exclusive? I would say yes, but that doesn't mean that themeparks can't have some sandboxy features. Look at LotRO or Vanguard for example: both are themeparks but have some sandboxy features, like fishing and music in LotRO or diplomacy and in-depth crafting like in Vanguard or housing in both.

Does that make these games a sandbox? No. Does it make those games more "sandboxy" than most themeparks? Yes. Nothing wrong with hybrids.

Originally posted by learis1 

My question is: Are they mutually exclusive?

No.

Most MMOs are actually a hybrid, though the weighting of each varies.

Pure sandboxes and pure themparks are extremely rare.

It's part of why I don't get why most here think in absolute terms about it all.