Originally posted by RizelStar
It's hard to tell the truth but easy to lie. DEs are rifts and pqs.

As you said, it's easy to lie. It's very hard to hide the truth from those who have really experienced things though.

Well if you conquer the DE then yea it will repeat. But have you tried to let the DE win? Just stand back and do nothing and see how the DE expands. I believe that is what Anet is referring to when they talk about effecting zones, i.e. the "monsters" completing the DE. Then they move onto the next stage, until somebody stops them. Once that happens its repeated. So if you are always beating stage one of the DE then you will only get stage one. I'm not speaking about the mini stages within a DE. Just my 2cents.

Originally posted by OldManFunk

Originally posted by Yamota

Yeah I suspect the whole thing is just like Rift's rifts. I.e. fluff and marketing hype.

Speaking as someone who owns GW2 and has played the game as well as someone who owns Rift and still has an active subscription I can tell you that Rifts rifts are not like GW2's dynamic events, so no need to worry about that any more.

I agree. I liked Rift, I liked WAR as well, both games I played through to cap.

I saw just about every PQ, Rift, and invasion available. Now that I've played through those as well as a sample of GW2s take on DEs, I can say with certainty that if I wasn't familiar with GW2s DEs and a friend said 'Oh they're just like Rifts or PQs from WAR', I would have lost respect for their opinion and been pissed that they gave me such misguided information after I'd seen how off the mark they were.

Similar idea, similar goal, but the functionality, scope and quality GW2 brings to the table with their DE is more than enough to seperate it from previous efforts.

Again, it's easy to point at WAR & Rifts DEs/PQs as basically fluff that was placed paralell to the whole linear task hub grind that truly drove their respective levelling experience, since they were. In GW2, it's a primary form of content rather than just some flavor tossed in to break up the monotony of grinding quest hubs.

Originally posted by Kabaal

Sorta off topic but i hate that phrase "dynamic events" as there's usually nothing dynamic about them, and many of them aren't so much events as something that happens non stop round the clock.

What you said.

True dynamic events require the MMORPG to be crafted in such a way that when the event is over, it is done. For example, a centaur camp starts building a small village around an abandoned stone tower near a kingdom... If the village goes unnoticed it continues to become larger until eventually they amass a force strong enough to attack the nearby kingdom. At any point, they can be wiped out by players or if the nearby kingdom discovers the centaur village it could attack the centaurs and destroy them.

That's it. Those centaurs are gone from that area... later on, maybe some bandits make the tower their home and start raiding passing merchant wagons from the kingdom, or a dragon awakes from all the combat and after the centaurs are wiped out and all is quiet, it digs its way out from under the tower, destroying the tower and begins attacking anything nearby. The point is, once one event is gone and done, another comes along that is different. The tower is destroyed by the dragon, and thus there is only rubble, of which can be used to build something...

It is really not that complex or difficult to implement. It amazes me nobody puts this together. If nobody ever does, I'll do it when I have the money. /shrug.

ok...

Dynamic, changing, fluid.

They told us that events would happen wether we participated or not. You can come in 1/2 way into an event and choose to jump in or not. THAT is what they meant by Dymanic.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

Originally posted by grimmliberty

ok...

Dynamic, changing, fluid.

 

They told us that events would happen wether we participated or not. You can come in 1/2 way into an event and choose to jump in or not. THAT is what they meant by Dymanic.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

 

 

I think his point is that it is a repeatedable scenario, and thus feels it is not dynamic. I understand your point, and I think its fine if ArenaNet is doing it that way, however, I would be more inclined to call them persistent static events and not dynamic... if the event changed to something else then it would be dynamic. The persistent part is simply that a player can join at any time and the events take place regardless of player interaction. I think that's great, but I like detailed explanations of declared features.

Originally posted by Morv

What you said.

True dynamic events require the MMORPG to be crafted in such a way that when the event is over, it is done. For example, a centaur camp starts building a small village around an abandoned stone tower near a kingdom... If the village goes unnoticed it continues to become larger until eventually they amass a force strong enough to attack the nearby kingdom. At any point, they can be wiped out by players or if the nearby kingdom discovers the centaur village it could attack the centaurs and destroy them.

That's it. Those centaurs are gone from that area... later on, maybe some bandits make the tower their home and start raiding passing merchant wagons from the kingdom, or a dragon awakes from all the combat and after the centaurs are wiped out and all is quiet, it digs its way out from under the tower, destroying the tower and begins attacking anything nearby. The point is, once one event is gone and done, another comes along that is different. The tower is destroyed by the dragon, and thus there is only rubble, of which can be used to build something...

It is really not that complex or difficult to implement. It amazes me nobody puts this together. If nobody ever does, I'll do it when I have the money. /shrug.

The stuff under the line in my previous post explains why what you're saying here is a really, really bad idea. (you're also delusional if you don't realize how incredibly difficult that is to implement in the first place)

You want to waste development resources on something that will be seen by 1% of the population? I'd really like to see that. I also want to know where you're gonna get all those infinite events from.

Originally posted by Morv

Originally posted by grimmliberty

ok...

Dynamic, changing, fluid.

 

They told us that events would happen wether we participated or not. You can come in 1/2 way into an event and choose to jump in or not. THAT is what they meant by Dymanic.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

I think his point is that it is a repeatedable scenario, and thus feels it is not dynamic. I understand your point, and I think its fine if ArenaNet is doing it that way, however, I would be more inclined to call them persistent static events and not dynamic... if the event changed to something else then it would be dynamic. The persistent part is simply that a player can join at any time and the events take place regardless of player interaction. I think that's great, but I like detailed explanations of declared features.

I'm not sure if you were asking for a definition of what they mean, but here is what ArenaNet has to say about them and the reasons behind why they call them dynamic events.

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dynamic-events/dynamic-events-overview/

Originally posted by Morv

That's it. Those centaurs are gone from that area... later on, maybe some bandits make the tower their home and start raiding passing merchant wagons from the kingdom, or a dragon awakes from all the combat and after the centaurs are wiped out and all is quiet, it digs its way out from under the tower, destroying the tower and begins attacking anything nearby. The point is, once one event is gone and done, another comes along that is different. The tower is destroyed by the dragon, and thus there is only rubble, of which can be used to build something...

It is really not that complex or difficult to implement. It amazes me nobody puts this together. If nobody ever does, I'll do it when I have the money. /shrug.

And what happens if all the goblins/centaurs/orcs whatever in the world are killed by the players? Will it be an empty universe afterwards? Or player driven cities will fight each other for dominance?

You fail to mention where those bandits or the dragon will come from. Will they simply spawn somewhere and start doing whatever you want them too? What happens if the players are epic failures? The world will end because some centaurs overrun everything?

What you say sounds great but it's totally unrealistic and impossible to implement. So, because the players defeated the centaurs on your server, nobody else will have the opportunity to fight them? That's a total waste of both money and resources. The only way to make a truly immersive MMO, like the one you want, is to have the developers actively playing it. Imagine a team of developers that actually "play" the monsters, or at least plan their movements, their development, much like an RTS game or something.... But that won't happen for a very long time.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by Morv

What you said.

True dynamic events require the MMORPG to be crafted in such a way that when the event is over, it is done. For example, a centaur camp starts building a small village around an abandoned stone tower near a kingdom... If the village goes unnoticed it continues to become larger until eventually they amass a force strong enough to attack the nearby kingdom. At any point, they can be wiped out by players or if the nearby kingdom discovers the centaur village it could attack the centaurs and destroy them.

That's it. Those centaurs are gone from that area... later on, maybe some bandits make the tower their home and start raiding passing merchant wagons from the kingdom, or a dragon awakes from all the combat and after the centaurs are wiped out and all is quiet, it digs its way out from under the tower, destroying the tower and begins attacking anything nearby. The point is, once one event is gone and done, another comes along that is different. The tower is destroyed by the dragon, and thus there is only rubble, of which can be used to build something...

It is really not that complex or difficult to implement. It amazes me nobody puts this together. If nobody ever does, I'll do it when I have the money. /shrug.

The stuff under the line in my previous post explains why what you're saying here is a really, really bad idea. (you're also delusional if you don't realize how incredibly difficult that is to implement in the first place)

You want to waste development resources on something that will be seen by 1% of the population? I'd really like to see that. I also want to know where you're gonna get all those infinite events from.

It's actually quite simple... If you want to break it down in its simplest form you simply take an area, say a kingdom, and place three or four randomized event locations. /shrug, no different than a randomized monster in Heroes of Might and Magic IV, except these are scripted events randomly grabbed from a pool.

It would not be a waste of development resources, I think you lack vision and are stuck on this, "it can't be done" attitude I have often seen in programmers (not that you are a programmer).

Once the event is done, there is a grace period, when the event is done, people can be awarded achievements for, "defeating the dragon", or "Saving the princess from the goblin chieftin" or whatever.

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Morv

That's it. Those centaurs are gone from that area... later on, maybe some bandits make the tower their home and start raiding passing merchant wagons from the kingdom, or a dragon awakes from all the combat and after the centaurs are wiped out and all is quiet, it digs its way out from under the tower, destroying the tower and begins attacking anything nearby. The point is, once one event is gone and done, another comes along that is different. The tower is destroyed by the dragon, and thus there is only rubble, of which can be used to build something...

It is really not that complex or difficult to implement. It amazes me nobody puts this together. If nobody ever does, I'll do it when I have the money. /shrug.

And what happens if all the goblins/centaurs/orcs whatever in the world are killed by the players? Will it be an empty universe afterwards? Or player driven cities will fight each other for dominance?

You fail to mention where those bandits or the dragon will come from. Will they simply spawn somewhere and start doing whatever you want them too? What happens if the players are epic failures? The world will end because some centaurs overrun everything?

What you say sounds great but it's totally unrealistic and impossible to implement. So, because the players defeated the centaurs on your server, nobody else will have the opportunity to fight them? That's a total waste of both money and resources. The only way to make a truly immersive MMO, like the one you want, is to have the developers actively playing it. Imagine a team of developers that actually "play" the monsters, or at least plan their movements, their development, much like an RTS game or something.... But that won't happen for a very long time.

Well no of course not, there is a grace period and then a new event is generated :) a different event. Player driven cities can and will fight each other, but the game will support actual dynamic NPCs development that could potentially assault player cities, with varying degress of success. Think of an RTS in an MMORPG world.

Simply spawn at the event locations, and migrate if not defeated or destroyed. It won't be just centaurs, it could be a number of things. if the players are epic failures there will be constant battles between NPCs in the game, human kingdoms, monster kingdoms, random monsters, etc.. Plus, it wouldn't be that difficult to put a subtle fail-safe in place to balance the spawning to avoid centaurs overrunning the world, maybe three human kingdoms band together to bring them down, etc..

It's not unrealistic, and not impossible, and it is that line of thinking that has led us to the crap we see today. Not really, the developers will just need to flip the switch. It's not that hard to do, just think of an RTS in an MMORPG world... lol.

Innovation people! come on, use your imagination! Further, break it down into what is possible programmatically. It is ALL possible, we already see it in the games we play today. :D

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Morv

Originally posted by grimmliberty

ok...

Dynamic, changing, fluid.

 

They told us that events would happen wether we participated or not. You can come in 1/2 way into an event and choose to jump in or not. THAT is what they meant by Dymanic.

Why is this so hard to grasp?

I think his point is that it is a repeatedable scenario, and thus feels it is not dynamic. I understand your point, and I think its fine if ArenaNet is doing it that way, however, I would be more inclined to call them persistent static events and not dynamic... if the event changed to something else then it would be dynamic. The persistent part is simply that a player can join at any time and the events take place regardless of player interaction. I think that's great, but I like detailed explanations of declared features.

I'm not sure if you were asking for a definition of what they mean, but here is what ArenaNet has to say about them and the reasons behind why they call them dynamic events.

 

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/dynamic-events/dynamic-events-overview/

No I wasn't, and I've read that already. What they say and what the game actually does are all to often two different things, but great if that's what it does. I don't know, I haven't played the game. I simply based my explanation on what the OP posted. I am not assuming anything here.

Originally posted by Morv

Well no of course not, there is a grace period and then a new event is generated :) a different event. Player driven cities can and will fight each other, but the game will support actual dynamic NPCs development that could potentially assault player cities, with varying degress of success. Think of an RTS in an MMORPG world.

That doesn't make any sense on so many different levels. A new event is generated everytime one is finished... do you know how many events exist in GW2? Hundreds if not thousands. Do you know how many times each event repeats itself over a single day? More than 20 (although it depends on the event) so you want a company to create a "pool" of random events that has a hudred thousand events for the random generator to choose from everytime the players defeat an event.... and that event will be seen/experienced only by a small fraction of the playerbase. If that's not a total waste of time and resources then I don't know what is.

The one thing I have to note is that the things some people here "expected" are generally not simulatable in a video game.

For instance, continually chaining events. It's not that a game developer cannot setup complex dynamics where you have your centaur faction and players war against them and centaurs can get some ground while humans lose some and so on. You can do that. The problem is, having such long chains can actually cascade to the point where the humans will quickly completely lose or centaurs go extinct. What do you do then? That's stupidly difficult to balance and what if the playerbase is just not good enough? Or too good? Then the game basically ends. The Burning Legion has defeated Azeroth. Seriously. You players fucked up. Goodbye. (tbh, I wonder if there's a market for this, haha)

This is the job of the designers, programmers to balance and adjust and put in failsafes so cascading out of control is not possible... I pointed out that 3 human kingdoms could simply band together to take out the spreading centaurs, etc... not hard to do... It seems as if you're not thinking that far outside the box... These are trouble shooting steps all games have to go through.

Your paragraph above is so simple to counter programmatically it could take ten minutes to fix.

Long chains are usually lopsided and result in a complete removal of content from the game (imagine that Azeroth defeats the Burning Legion, kills everybody, closes the Dark Portal, w/e. Now, all that content is gone. GONE). That's a disastrous use of development time. Imagine if they just allowed the Charr events to gain some permanence. With that many people, they'd basically just kill all the flame legion and everything that was in there and the Charr area would be completely empty. There's probably some immersive value to that, but it's a waste of resources. That's why a lot of destructive sandboxes insist on destroying player-made stuff and often lack developer-made stuff. If someone destroyed your Titan, who cares (in fact, EVE has a tiny, tiny amount of actual developer content, lol).

Your example is just silly! What if the Dark Portal can be re-opened? What if it can be re-opened at a different location? What if it's easy to do so? Come on! It's not that hard to think outside of the box! Too many people get caught up in what they think is possible or likely to happen and what really is possible or likely to happen.

I don't believe either of this is necessary for an immersive or enjoyable experience.

Don't expect what doesn't make any sense and shouldn't be done and you'll be fine.

Yet you expect a definitive way of doing things, much like the crap cookie cutter online games we've seen, and never improve on or innovate new ideas or build new concepts? Your theories have already been proven wrong in multiple RPGs out already! The methodology I have mentioned in its simplest form has already been done in varying degrees in multiple games already!

Originally posted by Morv

Originally posted by Kabaal

Sorta off topic but i hate that phrase "dynamic events" as there's usually nothing dynamic about them, and many of them aren't so much events as something that happens non stop round the clock.

True dynamic events require the MMORPG to be crafted in such a way that when the event is over, it is done.

The dynamic events are called dynamic because they change and progress, which is the definition of dynamic.

The fact that the dynamic events eventually loop doesn't change the fact that they are dynamic. The loop is often part of the process of interaction with the quest chain causing the changes and progression.

Some of the GW2 DEs in the starter area have few branches and end up looping more often than I'd like, but many GW2 DEs are complex, have several branches, can interact with other DEs and have a real and lasting impact on the world... like changing the mob spawns in an area, destroying an outpost, or blowing up a bridge.

There's nothing wrong with wanting more but it's dishonest to say that GW2's DEs are more of the same of what we've already seen in other games.

I think it's a bit much to wish for a computer game to offer more variety than even real life is capable of.

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Morv

Well no of course not, there is a grace period and then a new event is generated :) a different event. Player driven cities can and will fight each other, but the game will support actual dynamic NPCs development that could potentially assault player cities, with varying degress of success. Think of an RTS in an MMORPG world.

That doesn't make any sense on so many different levels. A new event is generated everytime one is finished... do you know how many events exist in GW2? Hundreds if not thousands. Do you know how many times each event repeats itself over a single day? More than 20 (although it depends on the event) so you want a company to create a "pool" of random events that has a hudred thousand events for the random generator to choose from everytime the players defeat an event.... and that event will be seen/experienced only by a small fraction of the playerbase. If that's not a total waste of time and resources then I don't know what is.

Yes, it's called a timer. It makes perfect sense, use an ability, cooldown period (i.e. grace period), then use the ability again... except insert event in there.

Nope, it would be experienced by anyone who participates, it guarantees a fresher experience no matter where you go. It's funny you people keep echoing this, "waste of resources" statements, when in fact, it would utilize those resources in more ways than you can count.

The more a player played, the more events they'd see... /shrug, it's not like other players can't say, "oo! The dragon is up over here! Come fight it!"

Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Morv

Well no of course not, there is a grace period and then a new event is generated :) a different event. Player driven cities can and will fight each other, but the game will support actual dynamic NPCs development that could potentially assault player cities, with varying degress of success. Think of an RTS in an MMORPG world.

That doesn't make any sense on so many different levels. A new event is generated everytime one is finished... do you know how many events exist in GW2? Hundreds if not thousands. Do you know how many times each event repeats itself over a single day? More than 20 (although it depends on the event) so you want a company to create a "pool" of random events that has a hudred thousand events for the random generator to choose from everytime the players defeat an event.... and that event will be seen/experienced only by a small fraction of the playerbase. If that's not a total waste of time and resources then I don't know what is.

On top of that, they actually do put multiple events in the same areas at times that are mutually exclusive. So what he is describing is already in place. 

He hasn't played it yet so obviously he's going to be skeptical. Especially when someone posts their experience of only the starter zone.

DEs aren't some mindblowing feature that everyone is going to love. What they are is:

any event that occurs in a persistent area as a result of players interacting with and exploring the world. They are called "dynamic" because there are multiple outcomes that also result in new events, creating a cascade effect. 

Originally posted by OldManFunk

Originally posted by Morv

Originally posted by Kabaal

Sorta off topic but i hate that phrase "dynamic events" as there's usually nothing dynamic about them, and many of them aren't so much events as something that happens non stop round the clock.

True dynamic events require the MMORPG to be crafted in such a way that when the event is over, it is done.

 

The dynamic events are called dynamic because they change and progress, which is the definition of dynamic.

 

The fact that the dynamic events eventually loop doesn't change the fact that they are dynamic. The loop is often part of the process of interaction with the quest chain causing the changes and progression.

 

Some of the GW2 DEs in the starter area have few branches and end up looping more often than I'd like, but many GW2 DEs are complex, have several branches, can interact with other DEs and have a real and lasting impact on the world... like changing the mob spawns in an area, destroying an outpost, or blowing up a bridge.

 

There's nothing wrong with wanting more but it's dishonest to say that GW2's DEs are more of the same of what we've already seen in other games.

 

I think it's a bit much to wish for a computer game to offer more variety than even real life is capable of.

It does actually change the fact of whether they are dynamic or static.. if it's the same event over and over it's not dynamic... /shrug... you said it yourself... those events just repeat... Or do they?

If you blow up that bridge does it stay destroyed until someone repairs it? I mean, that's more like it, and I have nothing against GW2, it sounds great, however, an event that repeats is not dynamic... sorry.

I think it's a bit much to wish for a computer game to offer more variety than even real life is capable of.
What a bizarre statement, whose asking for this?

Originally posted by Morv

This is the job of the designers, programmers to balance and adjust and put in failsafes so cascading out of control is not possible... I pointed out that 3 human kingdoms could simply band together to take out the spreading centaurs, etc... not hard to do... It seems as if you're not thinking that far outside the box... These are trouble shooting steps all games have to go through.

Your paragraph above is so simple to counter programmatically it could take ten minutes to fix.

You're the designer. So now you're telling me "I don't know how to do it, the designers should do that!" while here sitting and bashing designers saying you can design better. Wtf? That's the whole point. By the way, programmers don't balance anything.

You realize that a DE reset IS a failsafe? Didn't you just say that makes a game boring and everything? That's just it. Failsafes are unrealistic. Yet, you need them.

I'm thinking in terms of feasibility. I never come up with a random idea without first thinking about how exactly it's going to get impelemented and all of the consequences. Thinking up random ideas isn't thinking outside the box. It's just thinking up random ideas.

Go to the Pub on MMORPG.com and give out your design doc if you think you're that ingenious. Then we'll see what the users think.

Your example is just silly! What if the Dark Portal can be re-opened? What if it can be re-opened at a different location? What if it's easy to do so? Come on! It's not that hard to think outside of the box! Too many people get caught up in what they think is possible or likely to happen and what really is possible or likely to happen.

The Dark Portal reopening is a DE reset that you JUST denounced and said "It should just end, for good". So, decide what you want to do already, because you are coming full circle. First, you say centaurs should just destroy a tower and that's it. Now you say the tower can randomly reappear again (equivalent to DP re-opening. Why in the world would it?).

Also, stop insulting me with your "think outside the box" statements. Thinking outside the box is cool but not when you're busy talking about jumping in gravity boots on Mars while we're trying to make better airplanes...

Yet you expect a definitive way of doing things, much like the crap cookie cutter online games we've seen, and never improve on or innovate new ideas or build new concepts? Your theories have already been proven wrong in multiple RPGs out already! The methodology I have mentioned in its simplest form has already been done in varying degrees in multiple games already!

Yep, nice how you figured me all out and psychoanalyzed me.

Too bad when I release my ideas, they're backed out by loads of system designs. So I know what it takes, and you're not presenting it, so i'm pointing out you as what you are: all talk, no work.

 

Originally posted by Morv

It's actually quite simple... If you want to break it down in its simplest form you simply take an area, say a kingdom, and place three or four randomized event locations. /shrug, no different than a randomized monster in Heroes of Might and Magic IV, except these are scripted events randomly grabbed from a pool.

This hardly details everything that needs to be done to make what you're talking about work. There's a big difference between a randomized monster and what HoMM IV does, both in terms of design and in terms of programming. What you're moving towards is what I have actually stated in the stuff I'm quoting: content that isn't done by devs. I.e., randomization, USG. But you can't even say that because you don't know what you're actually talking about.

Talk is cheap. It's easy to say you can do it but until you have a design document detailing things at least at about this level: https://goblinworks.com/blog/ ,

anything you say is just bashing another video game company with empty words.

It would not be a waste of development resources, I think you lack vision and are stuck on this, "it can't be done" attitude I have often seen in programmers (not that you are a programmer).

if an event only happens once for a tiny amount of players, that's a waste of dvelopment resources no matter how you spin it. It may be honorable to do that but it's definitely not something with a good return.

I don't "lack vision", I know the consequences of what you're suggesting and what needs to be done to accomodate it, and I don't think you do because you're saying it's easy. Also, you're bashing another developer here while claiming you're smarter than them. Then you proceed to bash programmers (because programmers never get idiotic requests). That's quite arrogant. I saw way too much arrogant coming from incompetent people to last me a lifetime. It's not worth shit, anyone can talk down other people who are doing stuff.

Glass half empty or half full?

"Dynamic" is one of those words that will always get the right sort of cynics up in arms, it's open to a value judgement. You either accept new things the game offers, or sit back an dare it to amaze you, knowing that a narrow enough definition can never be amazed.

Agree to disagree, there is no right answer.