Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by Hokie

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Hokie

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by lifesbrink

Is it EQ?  Or does this go back farther?  It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all.  So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?

E. Gary Gygax.

 Exactly.

+1 boots of escaping

Negatory.

 

Did you ever read through the original giant series modules?  they had swords of giant slaying for the characters to find to gear them up.  Look at the amount of treasure in most of the modules.   Look at the treasure for monsters as well.  E.G.G had lots of loot in his game even though he was against monty haulism.  Perhaps your DMs didn't give out a lot of it, but if you look at the old products with HONEST review, you will see it.

 Nope, never read thru. But I did play thru them (well all except 1).

And just because youre getting treasure and magic items to help in your adventure doesnt mean it equates to a gear grind. AD&D was a level grind since most encounters you couldnt talk you way out of.

 

A person didnt play Against the Giants G1 just to gear up so they could play G2 and then to play G3 modules, that then lead them into the D series, and last to the Q series. Thats WOW.

Just a point of correction here, that's not WoW, that's Everquest, specifically the Kunark Expansion, and it was codified during Velious and written in stone for Luclin.

The idea of reaching max level, then raiding for gear to help you do more max level only content is solely EQ's baby, but it's a natural extension of what would have happened if you played an AD&D campaign which had two things, a level cap and no character retirement.

I am about 85% sure that there was no more than 1 sword of giant slaying in the G series, if any at all.

Got ya. Never did play EQ, my 1st true was EVE (tried E&B and AO, last only 1-2 months). But I'll fix it.

Originally posted by lifesbrink

Is it EQ?  Or does this go back farther?  It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all.  So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?

When you say "gear-based progression" you are implying that it is the most important progression form. Even in Final Fantasy I , I felt that the progression was not mostly based on gear. I never felt like "omg I need to grind and grind  to finally get this gear", I felt more like "I so want to beat the darn Ogre and I will do everything in my power to beat it".  

It feels very weird when the only reason I am doing a dungeon over and over again is to get a gear and nothing else. 

All this gear progression goes back to Movie's and then before that books.... How many movies have you seen where the "hero" has to go out questing to get this uber sword or some other item that will allow him to become more powerfull?  How many books have you read that are the same thing?

Hate to say it folks but its part of the tradition and its here to stay, and as well it should!

Deal with it or find a game that doesn't do it. Those are your two options.

Originally posted by TwoThreeFour

It feels very weird when the only reason I am doing a dungeon over and over again is to get a gear and nothing else. 

So the original question is sort of an inexact one; what we're really seeking is the first game with repeatable content and predictable boss drops?

Diablo one is a pretty strong bet, at least in terms of  popularity.

Originally posted by grimfall

The idea of reaching max level, then raiding for gear to help you do more max level only content is solely EQ's baby, but it's a natural extension of what would have happened if you played an AD&D campaign which had two things, a level cap and no character retirement.

I am about 85% sure that there was no more than 1 sword of giant slaying in the G series, if any at all.

Your characterization of AD&D gaming sessions... not so on target from my experience... though I am curious why your DM didn't let you haul all the treasure out of a dungeon... did you guys not think to leave someone there to guard it and send someone back for pack horses?

We got paraniod with leaving someone outside with the pack mules. We had one game where we had it loaded up with tapestries, candelabras, rugs, iron bar stock (remember what G said about GPs, only about 10% of it is in coins, and almost always copper and silver, pfft). Well the experience mountain guide we hired to, well guide us and watch the mules, absconded with not only our loot, but our horses and spare food. So we had to drop 1/2 of what we had just brought out  to make it back the 20 or so miles to town.

If looks could kill.

His answer was "What do you expect with 2k-3k worth of goods (and about 500 silver and copper coins) thats more of less untracable, and us with no way to track or chase him down. It was an easy decision for the NPC.

After a few hours we got a good laugh out of it. He just couldnt let our characters score enough to semi-retire. Like I said its why we went out to dungeon-crawl, we were broke.

"Its not and adventure, its a job!" Okay we never said that, but its sure what it felt like for our characters. :)

Six to eight hours of a well ran AD&D game beats any MMO on the interwebs today (and probably forever). *sigh*

Originally posted by Hokie

We had one game where we had it loaded up with tapestries, candelabras, rugs, iron bar stock (remember what G said about GPs, only about 10% of it is in coins, and almost always copper and silver, pfft).

We actually began building a tower from throwaway copper.  Cubic volume by weight (.1 pound each!), melt it down and make bricks of it.

As a resource copper was more plentiful than cut stone, just required a steady suppy of critturs with "treasure type" loot.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Hokie

We had one game where we had it loaded up with tapestries, candelabras, rugs, iron bar stock (remember what G said about GPs, only about 10% of it is in coins, and almost always copper and silver, pfft).

We actually began building a tower from throwaway copper.  Cubic volume by weight (.1 pound each!), melt it down and make bricks of it.

As a resource copper was more plentiful than cut stone, just required a steady suppy of critturs with "treasure type" loot.

LOL, never thought of that.

Hmm, throw some tin in it during smelting and you could call it Castle Brass when its done and then call yourself Count Brass....

Originally posted by Hokie

Hmm, throw some tin in it during smelting and you could call it Castle Brass when its done and then call yourself Count Brass....

Too uncomfortable in the winter time.

For CRPGs,

EQ got it from DIKU MUDs.  DIKU MUDs probably got it or at least the base mechanics of it from certain rogue-like games such as the old Moria.

If you look at the way gear is made in all those games they are very similar. 

The LP MUD I played had none of the +5 then get a +7 type stuff nor could you even tell what a piece of equipment did except in a very vague way or by experimentation and observation.  Even the one guild(class) that had a power to appraise stuff only got words like "good" or "excellent".  Its unlikely you could even tell if some item was a slight upgrade over some other.  Of course that game also had no max level and no perpetual gear progression.  In fact the best items were called artifacts.  They could not be owned by players only temporarily possesed (you dropped them as soon as you logged out).  Where they were reset into an NPC hands each reboot and if the room they were in reset they went back too.  And no normal "keepable" weapon was supposed to have artifact level stats.

But the thing that is really stupid in eq-style MMOs is they raise both Mob stats and equipment stat simultaneously.  You never progress, the only thing you can do is not fall behind.  Then they lie to you and call it progression.

Even most DIKU MUDs did not take it that far.  There was often a tier of equipment people would work on after they reached max but once they goot all that almost all DIKU MUDs opted for a remort system where you reincarnated back to lvl 1 and usually got an extra power or stats in exchagne for an XP penalty.

While DIKU MUDs had a few tiers of gear above max level almost none did the whole perpetual neverending gear grind as that just didn't seem sustainable to them.  Also they probably didn't have the personell to do it since the games were mostly free.

Note: a number of LP MUDs had/have max levels and gear progressions with obvious numbers etc.

Originally posted by Hokie

Originally posted by grimfall

The idea of reaching max level, then raiding for gear to help you do more max level only content is solely EQ's baby, but it's a natural extension of what would have happened if you played an AD&D campaign which had two things, a level cap and no character retirement.

I am about 85% sure that there was no more than 1 sword of giant slaying in the G series, if any at all.

Your characterization of AD&D gaming sessions... not so on target from my experience... though I am curious why your DM didn't let you haul all the treasure out of a dungeon... did you guys not think to leave someone there to guard it and send someone back for pack horses?

We got paraniod with leaving someone outside with the pack mules. We had one game where we had it loaded up with tapestries, candelabras, rugs, iron bar stock (remember what G said about GPs, only about 10% of it is in coins, and almost always copper and silver, pfft). Well the experience mountain guide we hired to, well guide us and watch the mules, absconded with not only our loot, but our horses and spare food. So we had to drop 1/2 of what we had just brought out  to make it back the 20 or so miles to town.

If looks could kill.

His answer was "What do you expect with 2k-3k worth of goods (and about 500 silver and copper coins) thats more of less untracable, and us with no way to track or chase him down. It was an easy decision for the NPC.

After a few hours we got a good laugh out of it. He just couldnt let our characters score enough to semi-retire. Like I said its why we went out to dungeon-crawl, we were broke.

"Its not and adventure, its a job!" Okay we never said that, but its sure what it felt like for our characters. :)

 

Six to eight hours of a well ran AD&D game beats any MMO on the interwebs today (and probably forever). *sigh*

I'd agree with this, no way I"d miss my sunday game.   MMOs are bastardized versions of DnD usually, and until an AI is smart enough to react, we'll be happy with mmos getting as close as they can, but nothing can replace a human computer that will build an adventure for you. 

In EQ and before hunting gear was one playstyle among many. When WoW hired one guild from EQ to create the whole endgame for them a guild with that playstyle, they created this new completly messed up norm. In the early beta of WoW it was about the Warcraft and about the two sides in a constant struggle. Suddenly, just weeks after they said who would create the endgame for WoW and "iron out the kinks", the whole focus of the game changed to endgame dungeons, really hard bosses for big groups in hard to reach places and loot loot loot. It was a big uproar....

Then the game was released and people started playing and forgot all about it, except a few questions here and there " was there supposed ot be any "War" in World of Warcraft?" Today. All games are released withthat same simple mindset because everybody and their sister thinks playing MMOS is all about the endgame loot. Since their first and only experience with MMOs is WoW (and yes, a lot of the developers know little else but WoW as well, they are in the thier late 20s)

Originally posted by lifesbrink

Is it EQ?  Or does this go back farther?  It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all.  So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?

Back to the Roman Empire.

i dont know who's responsible, but i know Blizzard perverted it. i think about this as i grind my way through D3's Inferno, and keep smacking my monk against "gear checkpoints." i also thought about this while grinding arena gear so i could pvp in WoW. finally, im thinking about how big of a moron i am for constantly falling for Blizzard's bullshit and buying their stupid games.

Originally posted by Quizzical

Video games that push you to get better gear to advance go way back.  The earliest examples that I can think of off hand are Metroid and The Legend of Zelda (both 1986), neither of which have experience levels.  There are probably earlier examples that didn't come to mind, too.

These games were still skill-based.  Other than needing certain items to advance, period, you did not need stat-based gear, which is my original rant.  I hate stat-based.

Originally posted by Konfess

There are four types of MMO players, they are Killers, Achievers, Socializers, & Explorers. Gear Progression is for Achievers & some may say Socializers. Heck an argument can be devised that GP adds flavor to all four play styles.

Achievers want the next and best. Explorers like to find stuff. Socializers like to show off, brag, and relive great adventures. Killers like anything that makes them better killers.

Heh, notice that 3 of those personality types happen to be about the equipment?  Sadly, I am all 4 of these types, so the gear thing really screws me.

Originally posted by sirphobos

D&D, MUDs.

This... EQ of the modern day 3D MMORPGs, but it had huge inspiration from the above...

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Edeus

Look at the early FF series, or the early dragonquest series, or the Chrono series...  it's all there!  Even skilling up with different weapons

largely true but it wasnt until MUDs and MMOs where your skills and levels do not change (if you are level capped)

only your gear changes

This is untrue, besides.  At max level, I can beat Chrono Trigger with nothing more than a wooden sword.

Originally posted by grimfall

Originally posted by Hokie

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Hokie

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by lifesbrink

Is it EQ?  Or does this go back farther?  It really bothers me that progression went from levels and skills, something I was used to from the days of Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, or other games, to needing gear to be able to fight at all.  So who's bright idea was it to screw us all with this?

E. Gary Gygax.

 Exactly.

+1 boots of escaping

Negatory.

 

Did you ever read through the original giant series modules?  they had swords of giant slaying for the characters to find to gear them up.  Look at the amount of treasure in most of the modules.   Look at the treasure for monsters as well.  E.G.G had lots of loot in his game even though he was against monty haulism.  Perhaps your DMs didn't give out a lot of it, but if you look at the old products with HONEST review, you will see it.

 Nope, never read thru. But I did play thru them (well all except 1).

And just because youre getting treasure and magic items to help in your adventure doesnt mean it equates to a gear grind. AD&D was a level grind since most encounters you couldnt talk you way out of.

 

A person didnt play Against the Giants G1 just to gear up so they could play G2 and then to play G3 modules, that then lead them into the D series, and last to the Q series. Thats WOW.

Just a point of correction here, that's not WoW, that's Everquest, specifically the Kunark Expansion, and it was codified during Velious and written in stone for Luclin.

The idea of reaching max level, then raiding for gear to help you do more max level only content is solely EQ's baby, but it's a natural extension of what would have happened if you played an AD&D campaign which had two things, a level cap and no character retirement.

I am about 85% sure that there was no more than 1 sword of giant slaying in the G series, if any at all.

Your characterization of AD&D gaming sessions... not so on target from my experience... though I am curious why your DM didn't let you haul all the treasure out of a dungeon... did you guys not think to leave someone there to guard it and send someone back for pack horses?

If you are sure about the giant slaying sword, then you are wrong.

You have to look at what the OP is asking.  Who started it.

It's like asking who is responsible for airplanes.  You are talking about the modern era of jets and fly by wire and discounting the early work. That's how I see what you are doing.  I have a specific background in regards to dnd and the old days.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Logic is responsible.

You have a game with bosses and they need to reward something which meaningfully makes players stronger.  Directly awarding new abilities or stat upgrades is really arbitrary and weird.  Rewarding an actual item you put on your actual character is much less weird (the only weirdness lies in the fact that a sword is making you stronger.)

I can understand the logic of reward, but that does not explain the aspect of making player skill negligible in favor of gear.

Originally posted by skydiver12

I've got the feeling somethign gone amiss here.
Are we talking gear progression like "any gear upgrade" or gear progression like item Gates and 90% of my characters combat stats come from gear?

Cause i see no point in discussion the first one, as for the second one, i think i can nail it down to my personal first contact with elemental stats attached to weapons which made me able to damage monsters at all (Rangarok online?) and as for overall stat contribution versus a naked character in WOW?

Can't say if a better quality armor set made all the difference in EQ, it certainly didn't in Lineage1.

My personal take is 2002~is where character growth beyond the item grind stopped.

To clarify, the second progression with 90% stats from gear.