Just a few questions I want clarified.

1) How come some mmorpgs feature bards as part of the rogue class such as in Rift? It confuses me because I generally think of the rogue as the sneaky type, the assassin, or treasure hunters and thieves.

2) Are rogues like the jack of all trades? Do they generally have a utility belt where they pull out guns, knives, bombs? What differs them from engineer classes/archetypes?

3) Can stealthy mage types be rogues too? Or are they just mages?

4) I was reading this article on mmohut: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmo-classes-playing-a-rogue

It describes the rogue as being a defense grid and trap layer manager. Is that what a rogue can be? Is that referring to rogues putting down traps, not just being the tower defense guy setting up walls and things?

thanks for your help.

1.) I would guess Bards having rogue like qualities in RPGs goes back to early tabletop RPGs (and even earlier examples in literature), they generally relied on charm, finesse, performance (acting, writing, music), guile, espionage, prestidigitation and similar skills.

Bard is a pretty broad term in RPGs. Traditionally in RPGs where warrior types generally attack head on relying on brute force, and wizards/magic users use spells, you'd find a bard, roguishly, taking a much less direct route as an assassin or thief would. They absolutely belong in with the rest of the rogues as there's a lot of overlap and similarities.

2.-5.) I didn't quite understand what you're asking.

Originally posted by Ranger101

Just a few questions I want clarified.

1) How come some mmorpgs feature bards as part of the rogue class such as in Rift? It confuses me because I generally think of the rogue as the sneaky type, the assassin, or treasure hunters and thieves.

2) Are rogues like the jack of all trades? Do they generally have a utility belt where they pull out guns, knives, bombs? What differs them from engineer classes/archetypes?

3) Can stealthy mage types be rogues too? Or are they just mages?

4) I was reading this article on mmohut: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmo-classes-playing-a-rogue

It describes the rogue as being a defense grid and trap layer manager. Is that what a rogue can be? Is that referring to rogues putting down traps, not just being the tower defense guy setting up walls and things?

thanks for your help.

1) the bard is the perfect cover for a sneaky assasin. nobody would ever suspect that the effeminate looking, soft fingered, flute player with the child like voice is actually a trained assasin just waiting for the perfect opportunity to stick you with a cleaverly concealed blade.

2) well the ones that have the good tricks don't need many....:P

3) a stealthy mage type...that's just wrong. it sounds more like a identity crises here. you wanna be a mage or a friken rogue? make up your mind.

4) sure...whatever...

Like basically a guy shooting spells from hiding. Being stealthy. Is he a mage or a rogue?

And as for the engineer and rogue question, is the engineering part of repairing structures more of a healer/support kind of class?

Originally posted by Ranger101

Like basically a guy shooting spells from hiding. Being stealthy. Is he a mage or a rogue?

And as for the engineer and rogue question, is the engineering part of repairing structures more of a healer/support kind of class?

well i'm not sure how you can be sneaky while shooting fireballs......they are effing fireballs. people are gonna notice friken fireballs flying arround...i mean you can be sneaky BEFORE you shoot a fireball, but once you do it's kind of hard keeping a low profile if you know what i mean.....

it's kind of like saying "can i be the sneaky RPG guy?".....

as for being stealhty....anyone can try be stealthy...even a bridge troll can be stealthy when he wants, that doesn't make him a rogue.

Originally posted by Jakdstripper

Originally posted by Ranger101

Like basically a guy shooting spells from hiding. Being stealthy. Is he a mage or a rogue?

And as for the engineer and rogue question, is the engineering part of repairing structures more of a healer/support kind of class?

well i'm not sure how you can be sneaky while shooting fireballs......they are effing fireballs. people are gonna notice friken fireballs flying arround...i mean you can be sneaky BEFORE you shoot a fireball, but once you do it's kind of hard keeping a low profile if you know what i mean.....

 

as for being stealhty....anyone can try be stealthy...even a bridge troll can be stealthy when he wants, that doesn't make him a rogue.

 

 

 

i mean like those stealth mage classes in skyrim

And as for the engineer and rogue question, is the engineering part of repairing structures more of a healer/support kind of class?

Originally posted by Ranger101

Just a few questions I want clarified.

1) How come some mmorpgs feature bards as part of the rogue class such as in Rift? It confuses me because I generally think of the rogue as the sneaky type, the assassin, or treasure hunters and thieves.

2) Are rogues like the jack of all trades? Do they generally have a utility belt where they pull out guns, knives, bombs? What differs them from engineer classes/archetypes?

3) Can stealthy mage types be rogues too? Or are they just mages?

4) I was reading this article on mmohut: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmo-classes-playing-a-rogue

It describes the rogue as being a defense grid and trap layer manager. Is that what a rogue can be? Is that referring to rogues putting down traps, not just being the tower defense guy setting up walls and things?

thanks for your help.

1) Bards often fall under the rogue archetype. Rogues are most often portrayed as your sneaky, dagger wielding backstabber, but that's more tied to the combat mechanics. In the Roleplay sense, bards fit perfectly under a rouge. They use cunning, charisma  and their dexeterity to perform many of thier skills. Think Charsma as someones charm or swagg; could be a  "babyface" appearance or a songbird voice.

2) Rogues are a jack of many trades, but are mainly focused in their arts of subteltry and trickery, deception. They usually have a high enough intellegence to perform some minor spellcasting. In D&D terms this means that if a Rogue came upon some magical scroll he could maybe read its incantation. There's a great chance he'll probably fumble some words and the said spellscroll could have a rather adverse effect instead, but he does have a chance of actually being successful. Spell casting is normally something reserved for Wizards and Sorcerors.

3) A mage can attempt to be a rouge. It really depends on the rulesets you are under. As I previously mentioned a rouge can have oppurtunity to cast mage like spells. It's more if him winging the whole process and hoping for the best. Normally a mage is so focused on their craft that they do not have time to dabble wtih sculking about in shadows. Wizards especially have to dedicate their entire lives to becoming experts in magicka. Sorcerors powers are innate and come naturally, they don't have to study books, but they do have to learn to control and expand on their inner powers.

4) Rogue traps aren't really a tower defense thing, but again that depends on the type of game you are playing and what they are using as rulesets for their rouges. Now you can't just piece some wild stuff together and call it a rouge, there are like any class some basic skills a rouge should / needs to have before he can call himself some stealthy rouge type assassin. Rogue traps could be something like setting up a pitfall with some caltrips at the bottom for the unknowing villian that patrol the area. A trap could also simply be a rogue gaining attention to himself using his Charisma to awe an audiance while his fellow rogue types pickpocket the crowd.

TL;DR

Rogues are a jack of all trade types. They don't always have the physical prowess to achive their goals but they use their cunning and their ability to trick and hide in the shadows. IDK tho, that's how I would try to explain to you here. Hope it makes some sense..

/shrug

There isn't a general rogue archetype.  The details depend on the particular game.  That enough games try too hard to be generic by having exactly four classes (tank, healer, melee damage, ranged damage) to make you think that there is a general rogue archetype only means that a lot of games are terrible, not that the rest of the industry should follow suit.

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ranger101

Just a few questions I want clarified.

1) How come some mmorpgs feature bards as part of the rogue class such as in Rift? It confuses me because I generally think of the rogue as the sneaky type, the assassin, or treasure hunters and thieves.

2) Are rogues like the jack of all trades? Do they generally have a utility belt where they pull out guns, knives, bombs? What differs them from engineer classes/archetypes?

3) Can stealthy mage types be rogues too? Or are they just mages?

4) I was reading this article on mmohut: http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmo-classes-playing-a-rogue

It describes the rogue as being a defense grid and trap layer manager. Is that what a rogue can be? Is that referring to rogues putting down traps, not just being the tower defense guy setting up walls and things?

thanks for your help.

1) Bards often fall under the rouge archetype. Rouges are most often portrayed as your sneaky, dagger wielding backstabber, but that's more tied to the combat mechanics. In the Roleplay sense, bards fit perfectly under a rouge. They use cunning, charisma  and their dexeterity to perform many of thier skills. Think Charsma as someones charm or swagg; could be a  "babyface" appearance or a songbird voice.

2) Rouges are a jack of many trades, but are mainly focused in their arts of subteltry and trickery, deception. They usually have a high enough intellegence to perform some minor spellcasting. In D&D terms this means that if a Rouge came upon some magical scroll he could maybe read its incantation. There's a great chance he'll probably fumble some words and the said spellscroll could have a rather adverse effect instead, but he does have a chance of actually being successful. Spell casting is normally something reserved for Wizards and Sorcerors.

3) A mage can attempt to be a rouge. It really depends on the rulesets you are under. As I previously mentioned a rouge can have oppurtunity to cast mage like spells. It's more if him winging the whole process and hoping for the best. Normally a mage is so focused on their craft that they do not have time to dabble wtih sculking about in shadows. Mages especially have to dedicate their entire lives to becoming experts in magicka. Sorcerors powers are innate and come naturally, they don't have to study books, but they do have to learn to control and expand on their inner powers.

4) Rouge traps aren't really a tower defense thing, but again that depends on the type of game you are playing and what they are using as rulesets for their rouges. Now you can't just piece some wild stuff together and call it a rouge, there are like any class some basic skills a rouge should / needs to have before he can call himself some stealthy rouge type assassin. Rouge traps could be something like setting up a pitfall with some caltrips at the bottom for the unknowing villian that patrol the area. A trap could also simply be a rouge gaining attention to himself using his Charisma to awe an audiance while his fellow rouge types pickpocket the crowd.

TL;DR

Rouges are a jack of all trade types. They don't always have the physical prowess to achive their goals but they use their cunning and their ability to trick and hide in the shadows. IDK tho, that's how I would try to explain to you here. Hope it makes some sense..

/shrug

Would the link that I have posted contain accurate information about the rogue? Where it suggests the stealthy mage as a rogue and a defense grid and trap layer manager?

and also what exactly distinguishes them from engineers? I always view the rogue as having many types of equipment/utility belts.

nvm

nvm

Originally posted by Ranger101

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ranger101

 

 

Would the link that I have posted contain accurate information about the rogue? Where it suggests the stealthy mage as a rogue and a defense grid and trap layer manager?

They are more of less throwing a bunch of stuff into rogues to generalize those classes and how they operate. Not everyclass that spawns out of the rouge archetype is a rouge. They mentioned a ranger, they use rogue like skills with the subtletry and trap laying.

But you won't catch a rogue too often with some pet companion the size of a bear. You might find a rogue having something like a mouse or even a small bird (IDK lol) for something like crawling under cracks in doors to get a key on the other side to unlock.

The article isn't inacurate to answer your question..

I think you might be getting yourself hung up on the mechanics of a rouge when you need to look at them from a more RP POV to get a clear picture. Rogues are a class meant more for the indirect route of solving situations. Least point of resistance kind of. If a rogue has the choice between bashing through a horde of orcs (or what have you) compared to just sneaking around back and disabling the trap set up for the unwary then 9/10 he would (as a rogue at least) do the latter.

He'd use his brain over the brawn of his enemies every chance he got..

so if the link is accurate, that means that rogues can be building structures, being defense and trap layer managers? And being stealthy mages?

and also what exactly distinguishes them from engineers? I always view the rogue as having many types of equipment/utility belts.

Originally posted by Ranger101

so if the link is accurate, that means that rogues can be building structures, being defense and trap layer managers? And being stealthy mages?

 

and also what exactly distinguishes them from engineers? I always view the rogue as having many types of equipment/utility belts.

Rogues aren't mages.. And stealty mages aren't rouges.. lol..

Rogues aren't engineers and a guy using a utility belt isn't ALWAYS a rouge..

You're getting behind the mechanics too much.. A mage is a mage, one that dedicates their mind and body to the arcane..

A rogue, likes to stealth about laying all sorts of traps, whether they be of the physical kind or not..

Engineer is something different, it's not a rogue either.. But the ability to use it's brain over brawn does lend to some rogue like traits..

Neither an engineer , a "stealthy" mage are rogues..

Trap layer manager seems really contricting to the class of a rogue, they are much much more than that..

As far as equipment yes a rogue will have many tricks up his sleave. Little devices and such, but not something that he probably crafted on his own. A heavily mechanised device may need to be crafted by someone like an engineer. The rouge being as "smart" as he is, will be able to understand how the device at least functions and could use it to his advantage...

Much along the same lines as I explained a rogue coming upon a scoll with an incantation..

Batman (Since you keep saying utility belt) is a rogue archetype character. He uses his stealth and cunning to defeat his foes. Often times choosing sneaky dark approach to get the jump on his foes..

Ironman would more be your engineer type class. He's equally as cunning and itellengent but doesn't go to the extent of hiding in shadows and using tricks to beat the badies. He's more brute force..

/shrug..

Hope you're starting to understand some of this..

Being a Rogue isnt about what tools you have, its about how you use them.

A rogue relies on an oblique approach to dealing with problems. He is the character that avoids direct confrontation while looking for an indirect means of dealing with obstacles.

This means that a ranger, relying on traps and sniping, may be a rogue.

It means that a mage who relies on spells of deceit and misdirection may be a rogue.

It means that an engineer, using traps or focusing on undermining an opponents efforts or preparations, may be a rogue.

It means that an assassin using mobility and stealth to allow him to bypass his target's defenses may be a rogue.

Originally posted by Ashen_X

Being a Rogue isnt about what tools you have, its about how you use them.

A rogue relies on an oblique approach to dealing with problems. He is the character that avoids direct confrontation while looking for an indirect means of dealing with obstacles.

This means that a ranger, relying on traps and sniping, may be a rogue.

It means that a mage who relies on spells of deceit and misdirection may be a rogue.

It means that an engineer, using traps or focusing on undermining an opponents efforts or preparations, may be a rogue.

It means that an assassin using mobility and stealth to allow him to bypass his target's defenses may be a rogue.

 

 

Your point is good but I don't see it that way... I see it in reverse..

A rogue that chooses to use a mage spell to hide or teleport maybe..

A rogue that chooses to use devices made by an engineer..

A rogue that's profecient in bows and crossbows who likes to snipe his targets out..

A mage is a mage man.. By theroy a mage must dedicate his body and mind to the arcane to be a master of it.. Otherwise he's just some rouge who learned a couple fireball spells on the upchance..

An engineer is going to be severely dedicated to his craft as well. I won't go into it too much as I'm not an expert in any but just an informed party, but I see an engineer being able to build all types of wild contraptions to do various things.. I don't see a rogue doing this.. I see him finding such item and after some studying being able to use that device..

A full fledge ranger will use his ability to hide and use traps, but as a rogue he's not going to be all woodsman out with a axe and wolf companion..

/Different strokes for different folks perhaps.. Just how I see it..

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ranger101

so if the link is accurate, that means that rogues can be building structures, being defense and trap layer managers? And being stealthy mages?

 

and also what exactly distinguishes them from engineers? I always view the rogue as having many types of equipment/utility belts.

Rouges aren't mages.. And stealty mages aren't rouges.. lol..

Rouges aren't engineers and a guy using a utility belt isn't ALWAYS a rouge..

You're getting behind the mechanics too much.. A mage is a mage, one that dedicates their mind and body to the arcane..

A rouge, likes to stealth about laying all sorts of traps, whether they be of the physical kind or not..

Engineer is something different, it's not a rouge either.. But the ability to use it's brain over brawn does lend to some rouge like traits..

Neither an engineer , a "stealthy" mage are rouges..

Trap layer manager seems really contricting to the class of a rouge, they are much much more than that..

As far as equipment yes a rouge will have many tricks up his sleave. Little devices and such, but not something that he probably crafted on his own. A heavily mechanised device may need to be crafted by someone like an engineer. The rouge being as "smart" as he is, will be able to understand how the device at least functions and could use it to his advantage...

Much along the same lines as I explained a rouge coming upon a scoll with an incantation..

Batman (Since you keep saying utility belt) is a rouge archetype character. He uses his stealth and cunning to defeat his foes. Often times choosing and sneaky dark approach to get the jump on his foes..

Ironman would more be your engineer type class. He's equally as cunning and itellengent but doesn't go to the extent of hiding in shadows and using tricks to beat the badies. He's more brute force..

/shrug..

Hope you're starting to understand some of this..

but didn't you say that the link was relatively accurate?

It suggests multiple options for a rogue among which include a trap layer defense manager, hackers, and stealth mages shooting fireballs from the shadows. It's in the second paragraph.

and also, are rangers similar to engineers? I usually place rangers in the same category as rogues.

Originally posted by Ranger101

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ranger101

so if the link is accurate, that means that rogues can be building structures, being defense and trap layer managers? And being stealthy mages?

 

and also what exactly distinguishes them from engineers? I always view the rogue as having many types of equipment/utility belts.

Rouges aren't mages.. And stealty mages aren't rouges.. lol..

Rouges aren't engineers and a guy using a utility belt isn't ALWAYS a rouge..

You're getting behind the mechanics too much.. A mage is a mage, one that dedicates their mind and body to the arcane..

A rouge, likes to stealth about laying all sorts of traps, whether they be of the physical kind or not..

Engineer is something different, it's not a rouge either.. But the ability to use it's brain over brawn does lend to some rouge like traits..

Neither an engineer , a "stealthy" mage are rouges..

Trap layer manager seems really contricting to the class of a rouge, they are much much more than that..

As far as equipment yes a rouge will have many tricks up his sleave. Little devices and such, but not something that he probably crafted on his own. A heavily mechanised device may need to be crafted by someone like an engineer. The rouge being as "smart" as he is, will be able to understand how the device at least functions and could use it to his advantage...

Much along the same lines as I explained a rouge coming upon a scoll with an incantation..

Batman (Since you keep saying utility belt) is a rouge archetype character. He uses his stealth and cunning to defeat his foes. Often times choosing and sneaky dark approach to get the jump on his foes..

Ironman would more be your engineer type class. He's equally as cunning and itellengent but doesn't go to the extent of hiding in shadows and using tricks to beat the badies. He's more brute force..

/shrug..

Hope you're starting to understand some of this..

but didn't you say that the link was relatively accurate?

It suggests multiple options for a rogue among which include a trap layer defense manager, hackers, and stealth mages shooting fireballs from the shadows. It's in the second paragraph.

Yes it is acurate to the fact that a rogue CAN very well accomplish these things. I'm telling you again though that you are getting caught up in the mechanics of it all too much.

You keep using trap layer and such and those are really consticting for rogue. He will not just be some trap layer, he wont just be some pickpocket, or lockpicker.. He won't just be in the shadows in stealth..

A rogue can do it all but not as well as a class that is truely dedicated to it.. As someone said there is no real way to be a stealthy mage. A mage has to recite incantions and do some others things with movements to cast his spell. This would make it hard to be stealthy as someone would "theoretically" hear you reciting al these incantations.

This would blow your cover, since a rogue wants to be out of sight as much as possible. Coming out to cast a bunch of fireballs and summons is not quiet in the least. He's going to be speaking in tounges and youre going to be hearing the crackling of fireballs coming from him and his summons.

A rogue is more one shot, one kill, no witness type..

You should look at something other than that article if you're truely wanting to understand how rogues work. Think Sam Fisher, not Master Chief..

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ranger101

Originally posted by Opapanax

Originally posted by Ranger101

so if the link is accurate, that means that rogues can be building structures, being defense and trap layer managers? And being stealthy mages?

 

and also what exactly distinguishes them from engineers? I always view the rogue as having many types of equipment/utility belts.

Rouges aren't mages.. And stealty mages aren't rouges.. lol..

Rouges aren't engineers and a guy using a utility belt isn't ALWAYS a rouge..

You're getting behind the mechanics too much.. A mage is a mage, one that dedicates their mind and body to the arcane..

A rouge, likes to stealth about laying all sorts of traps, whether they be of the physical kind or not..

Engineer is something different, it's not a rouge either.. But the ability to use it's brain over brawn does lend to some rouge like traits..

Neither an engineer , a "stealthy" mage are rouges..

Trap layer manager seems really contricting to the class of a rouge, they are much much more than that..

As far as equipment yes a rouge will have many tricks up his sleave. Little devices and such, but not something that he probably crafted on his own. A heavily mechanised device may need to be crafted by someone like an engineer. The rouge being as "smart" as he is, will be able to understand how the device at least functions and could use it to his advantage...

Much along the same lines as I explained a rouge coming upon a scoll with an incantation..

Batman (Since you keep saying utility belt) is a rouge archetype character. He uses his stealth and cunning to defeat his foes. Often times choosing and sneaky dark approach to get the jump on his foes..

Ironman would more be your engineer type class. He's equally as cunning and itellengent but doesn't go to the extent of hiding in shadows and using tricks to beat the badies. He's more brute force..

/shrug..

Hope you're starting to understand some of this..

but didn't you say that the link was relatively accurate?

It suggests multiple options for a rogue among which include a trap layer defense manager, hackers, and stealth mages shooting fireballs from the shadows. It's in the second paragraph.

 Yes it is acurate to the fact that a rouge CAN very well accomplish these things. I'm telling you again though that you are getting caught up in the mechanics of it all too much.

You keep using trap layer and such and those are really consticting for rouge. He will not just be some trap layer, he wont just be some pickpocket, or lockpicker.. He won't just be in the shadows in stealth..

A rouge can do it all but not as well as a class that is truely dedicated to it.. As someone said there is no real way to be a stealthy mage. A mage has to recite incantions and do some others things with movements to cast his spell. This would make it hard to be stealthy as someone would "theoretically" hear you reciting al these incationations.

This would blow your cover, since a rouge wants to be out of sight as much as possible. Coming out to cast a bunch of fireballs and summons is not quiet in the least. He's going to be speaking in tounges and youre going to be hearing the crackling of fireballs coming from him and his summons.

A rouge is more one shot, one kill, no witness type..

You should look at something other than that article if you're truely wanting to understand how rouges work. Think Sam Fisher, not Master Chief..

1) but the article stated a "dedicated" trap layer and defense grid manager. Is it a possible for a rogue to accomplish this task and only this task? Why did the article state that rogues can perhaps be a stealthy mage shooting fireballs? In skyrim, the stealth mechanic allows you to shoot lightning and you're still unnoticeable to the enemy (I have no idea how this works). There's some videos that show it as well on youtube.

2) When I think of rogues, I don't only think about stealth. I also consider agile fighters roguish as well. This idea is also present in quite a few games. I mean, in games like ninja gaiden, the ninja has no stealth at all, I see it as roguish however because Ryu is very agile and fast.

3) What is the difference between rangers and engineers? I usually put rangers in the same category as rogues.

4) So can rogues access utility belts with wide array of equipment like engineers? What's the difference between rogues and engineers if you don't restrict the rogue to purely stealth and also look at the wide range of classes that rogues can be like in Rift? There are support rogue classes such as bards like in Rift for example.

thanks for your help.