Originally posted by JoeyMMO

Originally posted by MMOExposed

What simply need to be done for PvE is similar to how Tanks work in trinity MMO with tanking. Make Melee harder to defeat in Melee range. Not 1shot, or like my suggestion in the official forum, they should simply add a "PARRY" mechanics to null damage from close range.

 Giving all melee a parry mechanic to make them immune to melee damage? Sounds real tanky to me. If it's just a short time it could be acceptable, but not immune, dodge, dodge, immune, hit, dodge, immune, heal, dodge, immune,.... that would just be a tanking rotation, zero adapting to the situation. Some weapon combinations already give more defensive options.

Just a couple of seconds on a long cooldown would be ok, but I doubt you'd want to sacrifice a slot to something that boils down to an extra dodge.

Off the top of my head though...

1h sword Mesmer gets blurred frenzy, an atack that makes you invulnerable for its entire animation. It also gives illusionary riposte, which blocks one attack.

Warrior has a multiple tanky abilities. Counter blow blocks the next attack in main hand mace. Offhand sword has riposte. let's not forget shield stance of course.

Guardian is more anti-ranged with things like zealot's defense (main sword) and Shield of Absorption (shield), as well as a number of damage reduction abilities like Shield of Judgement (shield again), Protector's strike (main mace) . There's also Shield of wrath (focus, blocks several attacks)

Melee Rangers have Counter attack (1 block, greastword), and Whirling defense (ranged block, offhand axe). 

Thief doesn't get any block/parry mechanics sadly, but makes up for it by having LOTS of ways to evade.

Oh, and I didn't bother to list the NUMEROUS tanky utility skills.

Point I'm making is there ARE block/parry mechanics in game already. They're active rather than passive, which means you have to give thought to when and how to use them. But I saw a lot of melee in beta die from just spamming attacks and trying to rely on dodge to keep them alive.

Originally posted by terrant

But I saw a lot of melee in beta die from just spamming attacks and trying to rely on dodge to keep them alive.

Are you talking about the ones who said GW2 combat is a mindless spam of hotkeys?

Originally posted by Elifia

I'm not sure if Melee/Ranged is unbalanced though. Melee is a lot harder, so it might seem like it is weaker, but truth be told, most professions have far stronger skills while meleeing.
My warrior did way more damage per target with a greatsword than with a rifle, even though the greatsword was AoE and the rifle single target.

...

As for how the dodge works: It definitely moves you out of the way of attacks (assuming you dodge in the right direction) but it also gives you immunity for a very tiny amount of time. This includes immunity to AoEs.
Fighting the big Underworld boss in the swamps, whenever he used his purple vortex, I'd die if I took 4 hits at full hp, while 3 hits would leave me with hardly any hp left. If I was moving while he cast it I'd take 3 hits. However, if I dodged right after the first hit, the second hit would be evaded, and the third hit would never happen because I was already out of range.

Yeah, the skills are indeed better, but not if you can't stick around long enough to actually use them.  Now, I personally disagree with MMOExposed's sentiment that melee needs to be more durable - I like that classes have to be cautious.  The trouble is that I don't always have the ability to mitigate damage in other ways.  Oddly enough, my Guardian seemed to have rather poor defensive skills in PvE.  There certainly wasn't anything so good as a 5 second invulerability skill, at least not that I saw.  (On a side note, I was disappointed that I couldn't select any of those Avatar elite skills - I played a Dervish in GW1, so I would have really liked to see the new incarnations!)

Anyway, maybe the dodge invulnerability just needs to last longer.  I mean, if I can go through a whole BWE without even noticing its effect, it's probably a bit too subtle.  If you have a dodge available to you, you should be able to use it to completely dodge any single attack.  That's my thought anyway.  Having AoEs like the purple vortex which are more or less unavoidable seems like a cheap shot against melee attackers who have no choice but to stand in them in the first place.  You should only get hit if you can't dodge and/or make no attempt to do so.

Maybe it's not only the dodge mechanic which is causing the trouble, but it does seem to be at least part of it.

Or maybe I just suck at the game.  There's always that possibility, I suppose.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by Meowhead

Originally posted by MMOExposed

So what happens, is the dodge mechanics doesn't actually make you dodge the attack, it simply makes you immune to the next attack.

For somebody who spends so much time talking about GW2, you are oddly misinformed a lot of the time.

Dodge is a combination of things.  It physically moves you more quickly than wads can, (Which can dodge attacks manually, since a significant portion of GW2 attacks have range, and even the small portion of homing attacks, many of them curve gently rather than assure a hit, so sufficient movement can get you out of their firing arc.  Also, it's possible to move out of attack range with sufficient distance as well), and it has a brief window of invulnerability during it (Not during the whole thing, and it doesn't apply to rolling inside of AoEs, like through a firewall)

'Immune to the next attack' is the buff 'Aegis', which Guardians have.

 

Yes or no,,, do you agree with anything I just said? Seem more like you are ranting here, simply to disagree with me for the sake disagreeing with me.

He corrected your mistake. That's hardly ranting.

My feelings about the Dodge is that the invulnerability doesn't last the whole animation. After the initial flip, when you are getting ready to stand up again, was a time when I was hit more than once during PVP. It may be some latency issue (after all, i live in Brazil, land of the worst Internet in the southern hemisphere), but I quickly adapted to it and took this into consideration while dodging.

We also have to account for missile speed and dodge orientation. Against slower projectiles, such as some Necro effects, Rolling backwards is not a guarantee of evasion, because they are slow enough to keep going straight and will land you right at the end of your dodge. Against faster/instant projectiles (such as gunfire, Mesmer's GS 1, and most bow attacks), this is less of an issue. So, remember to dodge sideways against Necros ;)

ok so let me get this straight about dodge(considering thats what the subject is about)

you cant just,double click in a direction and dodge that direction.i kinda figured you could but ive heard you can use the direction keys and it doesnt really seem like you can just double click in a direction and have your toon dodge in that direction

cuz i figured you could dodge like that(i know you can use your mouse and click on the dodge thing.but i figured that would just dodge you in some random direction and id rather not use it and dodge into something thats going to kill me)but ive recently heard different

With all the problems GW2 dodge sounds like it has, I wish AN would just use a similar dodge mechanic like Tera does. 

Originally posted by Czanrei

With all the problems GW2 dodge sounds like it has, I wish AN would just use a similar dodge mechanic like Tera does. 

id rather developers come up with there own ideas instead of just copying and pasting other mmos ideas

::cough::star wars the old republic::cough::

Originally posted by Czanrei

With all the problems GW2 dodge sounds like it has, I wish AN would just use a similar dodge mechanic like Tera does. 

Oh, it works well. We are discussing its perks, only. Most of the time, it works exactly as intended, and it adds a lot of depth to the combat. But, as expected, it does need tweaks. It's a Beta, after all.

Originally posted by Czanrei

With all the problems GW2 dodge sounds like it has, I wish AN would just use a similar dodge mechanic like Tera does. 

Dodging in GW2 has no "problems", it works fine and I personally prefer it to the Tera version.

Most of the percieved "problems" actually come from a balance problem between melee and ranged. Melee just need a survivability boost.

Originally posted by Czanrei

With all the problems GW2 dodge sounds like it has, I wish AN would just use a similar dodge mechanic like Tera does. 

what dodge problems?? for me dodge seem work very smooth, i didnt see any problem on BW and i did dodge a lot

Originally posted by MMOExposed

 

Yes or no,,, do you agree with anything I just said? Seem more like you are ranting here, simply to disagree with me for the sake disagreeing with me.

Uh, no, I'm correcting the core of your argument, which is fundamentally flawed because you don't understand basic mechanics.

It's like if somebody's whole moon base plan depended upon surviving off the bountiful supplies of moon cheese as the staple of your diet.

If I say that you should probably think about another plan to get food, I'm hardly ranting, or disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing.

Originally posted by Meowhead

...

It's like if somebody's whole moon base plan depended upon surviving off the bountiful supplies of moon cheese as the staple of your diet.

If I say that you should probably think about another plan to get food, I'm hardly ranting, or disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing.

Wallace and Gromit hereby declare you an impediment to progress.  Moon cheese happens to be delicious, especially on crackers.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by timeraider

melee roll more becuz of stamina..

ever thought about the fact that melee runs with amazingly heavy armor which will probably crush their spine if they roll? XD

but they are atm really busy trying to balance out melee/ranged, it isnt that easy that 1 mechanic is to blame...it will take some time before getting close to balanced.

atm arenanet alrdy announced they would see if they could implement some survival tactics at melee without changing either the difficulty or advantages over other professions..

but well see..its only beta so :P

 

What simply need to be done for PvE is similar to how Tanks work in trinity MMO with tanking. Make Melee harder to defeat in Melee range. Not 1shot, or like my suggestion in the official forum, they should simply add a "PARRY" mechanics to null damage from close range.

what arenanet need to do (and they already say will do) is to make bosses DE atack more frequently ranged guys. your parry mechanic suggestion dont make any sense, the objective isnt to be always on melee range, reason why you can change weapon.

if you notice 90% of bosses atack are on melee range, if they change for 75% melee / 25% ranged (yes, melee always need to have the big % because they have much better DPS compared ranged guys) atacks and add some warning for the biggest boss skill the problem end. the warning already exist but is very hard to see sometimes. 

 melee guys need to learn that GW2 is all about hit and run, if you want to stay on spot always on melee you are playing wrong and this game isnt for you...but seem you didnt learn how GW2 work.

this game dont have tanks and isnt suppose to have, why make a tank mechanic if this game dont want to have tank guys???? 

Well I mean if you dodge roll into through an aoe you will get hurt and it makes sense. You need to time em properly. And you do move away faster if you dodge roll. 

"but seem you didnt learn how GW2 work."

alot of people dont know how other games work also

"oh im standing in this fire and died,but instead of saying im a idiot who died while standing in the fire.im going to blame it on my screen not showing me in the fire"

Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

"but seem you didnt learn how GW2 work."

alot of people dont know how other games work also

"oh im standing in this fire and died,but instead of saying im a idiot who died while standing in the fire.im going to blame it on my screen not showing me in the fire"

 

Crunk have you even played GW 2 yet?

I swear to God I thought you said you didn't play it.

I remember asking this but never got around to seeing the response if any.

I found dodging a bit frustrating, especially since we did not have any Ctrl/Alt/shift - keyboard modifiers integrated like we've always had in GW1.   ....I tended to rely on a knock-back attack (from my longbow) a lot more  often than dodging for interrupting or radidly repositioning the PBAOE damage before it could take place.  I used dodging a lot more often to escape a fight faster than running allowed, just like in DCUO.

Maybe it shouldn't grant immunity, especially not to Ranged weapon users.  But it should definitely reduce the damage that Melees take and certain Pets should also be programmed to do it so they're not as squishy either.  Overall, it defnitely needs more work if it's truly going to be a core component to the game.  And they should really consider making a different Default keyboard setup for it as well since the majority of people who I heard from, disabled the Double-Tap default because it caused them to roll way too often on accident. (It's especially awful on Jump-Maps and can cost you an immense amount of silver in repairs from falling deaths if you leave it on by default).

PS:  standing in fire in Gw1 without even realizing it happened constantly b/c the graphic indicators were a joke.  You had to instead constantly tab-target between different Mage mobs to see which one was casting and you had to read the spell's name to know what was being casted.  If it was a spell you were unfamiliar with, you had to Wiki it to find out if it did AoE or not.   The last major Content update in Gw1 added AoE targeting to several skills that are used by 60% of all Elementalist mobs in the game who did not previously have AoE functions on those skills and this has made several chapters 2-3x harder for Hero/Henchmen parties than they used to be....

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by timeraider

melee roll more becuz of stamina..

ever thought about the fact that melee runs with amazingly heavy armor which will probably crush their spine if they roll? XD

but they are atm really busy trying to balance out melee/ranged, it isnt that easy that 1 mechanic is to blame...it will take some time before getting close to balanced.

atm arenanet alrdy announced they would see if they could implement some survival tactics at melee without changing either the difficulty or advantages over other professions..

but well see..its only beta so :P

 

What simply need to be done for PvE is similar to how Tanks work in trinity MMO with tanking. Make Melee harder to defeat in Melee range. Not 1shot, or like my suggestion in the official forum, they should simply add a "PARRY" mechanics to null damage from close range.

what arenanet need to do (and they already say will do) is to make bosses DE atack more frequently ranged guys. your parry mechanic suggestion dont make any sense, the objective isnt to be always on melee range, reason why you can change weapon.

if you notice 90% of bosses atack are on melee range, if they change for 75% melee / 25% ranged (yes, melee always need to have the big % because they have much better DPS compared ranged guys) atacks and add some warning for the biggest boss skill the problem end. the warning already exist but is very hard to see sometimes. 

 melee guys need to learn that GW2 is all about hit and run, if you want to stay on spot always on melee you are playing wrong and this game isnt for you...but seem you didnt learn how GW2 work.

this game dont have tanks and isnt suppose to have, why make a tank mechanic if this game dont want to have tank guys???? 

 

 

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by p_c_sousa

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by timeraider

 

 

 

 

You are pretty much exposing the issue here. Why play Melee if ranged is better? Some people like to play Melee because that interest them more than ranged classes in rpg. But when ranged exceed Melee in terms of quality, there is nothing left for Melee to do other than switch over.

Melee fighters tend to die in Melee range near hard hitting creatures, which makes it harder to Rez them compared to ranged fighters. A skilled ranged fighter is greater asset than a skill Melee fighter.

And my parry idea does make sense. Have a party bar similar to Dodge bar. Each time you get hit in Melee range, the bar goes down till empty. Parrying prevents attack from doing more than 33% of your max HP in damage. Once it depletes, it will slowly start to recharge so it can be used again. Basically this is a passive mechanic to prevent npc from doing too much damage to Melee fighters. Ranged doesn't need this, since they aren't in Melee range to begin with.

Hit and run may work well for ranged, but Melee still has animation locks. Movement can interrupt these skills. Don't forget many heals can't be casted while moving. This is another pro ranged argument here.

I can't speak for 1 on 1, but melee are absolutely essential for WvW (or massive online battles).  I can't tell you how many times I wished more people would play melee when our side was holed up in a keep under siege in Warhammer and Daoc.  With nothing but ranged on your side, all you can hope to do is hang out on the walls all day and fight to a standstill.  That gets pretty boring after awhile.  But with a large group of melee on your side, you can punch a hole in the offense (scattering them to the winds in the process) and drive them back.  It's always most fun when you have a good balance of range and melee in RvR (or WvW, in this case).