Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point, I can recall EQ having NPC factions, but what other old pre-WoW MMO's did have that, and did all of them have that or just a few? Curious to know. But NPC factions can be found with AoC (Khitai factions), Guild Wars (heck, a whole expansion was extra focused on NPC factions), Aion has factions like the Balaur, Mau and Krall, and TSW has NPC factions like 3 NPC secret societies that aren't the player factions. I'm sure there are more MMO's that feature them, but since I didn't play all MMO's around, I can only speak of MMO's I played.

EQ Greater Faydar, Freeport, etc

 I alrdy mentioned EQ if you noticed, I was asking for examples in the other old MMO's. Anyway, I gave a number of examples of factions in new MMO's.

Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to. Would like some examples that this was available in all old MMO's and how, then it'd be possible to compare.

EQ SWG

 Are you saying those are the only ones of the old MMO's that had it? I'm still not sure what specifically is meant, since damage types and resistances aren't exactly unique in MMO's, old or new.

 

Player Housing: EQ and DAoC and I think AC and CoH didn't have that either. So? EQ2 has it, LotrO as well, AoC has player cities, SWTOR has player ships, and GW2 will have player home districts.

SWG and AO

 Like said, some old MMO's didn't have any, a number of newer MMO's do have them.

 

Complex Crafting and resources: again, a lot of the old MMO's (EQ, DAoC etc) didn't have that either. Is the crafting encountered in FF14 or LotrO or Aion or some of the other AAA MMO's worse than what EQ or DAoC or CoH had? Hmm. I find that debatable.

EQ and SWG

 EQ wasn't really complex at all, certainly not more complex and deep than crafting in a number of newer MMO's. See point I already mentioned. SWG's and UO's crafting was special, we all know that, but the rest of the old MMO's had crafting that wasn't much better than found in other newer MMO's, and sometimes even worse.

Item Customization: same point as crafting. What old MMO's had this, which didn't. TSW's system seems pretty intricate.

See SWG crafting, AO

 See my former point

Large number of classes or skill builds: GW, GW2, EQ2, CO, TSW, all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds. Rift uses the mechanic of being able to mix up the 32 available classes with eachother into preferred builds, at least within each archetype.

EQ SWG AO

 Shrug. Already gave examples of newer MMO's.

Inter-faction interaction: DAoC didn't have that, EQ had no real player factions only races - what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.

EQ Depending on server rules

 Is that the only one of the old MMO's? That's not much at all. And when you add specific server rules, then I'm going to add AoC.

I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.

 

I think there's little to add at this point to what I already did in my former conclusion: looks like the original poster was only looking very selectively at both old and new MMO's, or maybe didn't have much experience with most old and new MMO's. No matter what the reason, the result is that his list was skewed and flawed.

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by NorseGod

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point, I can recall EQ having NPC factions, but what other old pre-WoW MMO's did have that, and did all of them have that or just a few? Curious to know. But NPC factions can be found with AoC (Khitai factions), Guild Wars (heck, a whole expansion was extra focused on NPC factions), Aion has factions like the Balaur, Mau and Krall, and TSW has NPC factions like 3 NPC secret societies that aren't the player factions. I'm sure there are more MMO's that feature them, but since I didn't play all MMO's around, I can only speak of MMO's I played.

EQ Greater Faydar, Freeport, etc

 I alrdy mentioned EQ if you noticed, I was asking for examples in the other old MMO's. Anyway, I gave a number of examples of factions in new MMO's.

Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to. Would like some examples that this was available in all old MMO's and how, then it'd be possible to compare.

EQ SWG

 Are you saying those are the only ones of the old MMO's that had it? I'm still not sure what specifically is meant, since damage types and resistances aren't exactly unique in MMO's, old or new.

 

Player Housing: EQ and DAoC and I think AC and CoH didn't have that either. So? EQ2 has it, LotrO as well, AoC has player cities, SWTOR has player ships, and GW2 will have player home districts.

SWG and AO

 Like said, some old MMO's didn't have any, a number of newer MMO's do have them.

 

Complex Crafting and resources: again, a lot of the old MMO's (EQ, DAoC etc) didn't have that either. Is the crafting encountered in FF14 or LotrO or Aion or some of the other AAA MMO's worse than what EQ or DAoC or CoH had? Hmm. I find that debatable.

EQ and SWG

 EQ wasn't really complex at all, certainly not more complex and deep than crafting in a number of newer MMO's. See point I already mentioned. SWG's and UO's crafting was special, we all know that, but the rest of the old MMO's had crafting that wasn't much better than found in other newer MMO's, and sometimes even worse.

Item Customization: same point as crafting. What old MMO's had this, which didn't. TSW's system seems pretty intricate.

See SWG crafting, AO

 See my former point

Large number of classes or skill builds: GW, GW2, EQ2, CO, TSW, all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds. Rift uses the mechanic of being able to mix up the 32 available classes with eachother into preferred builds, at least within each archetype.

EQ SWG AO

 Shrug. Already gave examples of newer MMO's.

Inter-faction interaction: DAoC didn't have that, EQ had no real player factions only races - what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.

EQ Depending on server rules

 Is that the only one of the old MMO's? That's not much at all. And when you add specific server rules, then I'm going to add AoC.

I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.

 

I think there's little to add at this point to what I already did in my former conclusion: looks like the original poster was only looking very selectively at both old and new MMO's, or maybe didn't have much experience with most old and new MMO's. No matter what the reason, the result is that his list was skewed and flawed.

Nah, you made it sound as if those things didn't exist and that we were dreaming of the days that never were.

I'll let someone else explain the differences in the roles of factions between EQ and ..whatever new game is out. Or building a character based around damage type, or crafting armor based around resistence type, or how interactions with factions resulted with KOS, or ignored, or couldn't use shops while the rest of your group wasn't effected at all. etc etc.

The newer games you are boasting about does everything in that list half-assed. And if they were any good, they would retain a player-base longer than x months (except WoW).

Originally posted by NorseGod

 

...

I'll let someone else explain the differences in the roles of factions between EQ and ..whatever new game is out. Or building a character based around damage type, or crafting armor based around resistence type, or how interactions with factions resulted with KOS, or ignored, or couldn't use shops while the rest of your group wasn't effected at all. etc etc....

Ah, I remember those days. Grinding Qeynos faction so my Dark Elf was amiable with them for the only reason that I liked Qeynos. Blackburrow and the servants of Bertoxulous really hated me back then, heh.

Originally posted by NorseGod

Nah, you made it sound as if those things didn't exist and that we were dreaming of the days that never were.

I'll let someone else explain the differences in the roles of factions between EQ and ..whatever new game is out. Or building a character based around damage type, or crafting armor based around resistence type, or how interactions with factions resulted with KOS, or ignored, or couldn't use shops while the rest of your group wasn't effected at all. etc etc.

The newer games you are boasting about does everything in that list half-assed. And if they were any good, they would retain a player-base longer than x months (except WoW).

Wrong. I never said that those things didn't exist, read what I posted, I said that from what I recall those features weren't dominant and present in all old MMO's or even the majority of them, nor were they exclusive to only the old MMO's.

I played EQ and some of those other old MMO's, and also a number of newer MMO's: I can't recall EQ's faction system being used in the other old MMO's which is kinda lame if that's being used as THE example that old MMO's had that new MMO's haven't, because then the other old MMO's would flunk at that aspect too.

Other newer MMO's used NPC factions in ways that the older MMO's didn't, if you consider those half-assed even without knowing how those new MMO's did it, then most of the other old MMO's excluding EQ did it full-assed, since they have nothing anywhere near EQ's faction system.

Same with the other points: if you consider the implementation of those features half-assed in other newer MMO's - merely bc you're one of those people apparently that needs to feel that all new MMO's suck and all old MMO's were heaven and bliss - then other old MMO's were even complete, total failures in those areas. EQ and DAoC failed enormously at player housing and crafting, as good as all old MMO's minus EQ failed big time at NPC factions, DAoC and UO failed at faction interaction etc.

But hey, good luck with dreaming about the old MMO's, I'll not be the person that wants to withhold you from that; hope you have any fun and luck in MMO's the upcoming years since it seems you'll need it.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

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Originally posted by Quirhid

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Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

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Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter  

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Trinity has nothing to do with predictable combat mechanics. TERA has it, and i'm pretty sure that if you try to stand still you're going to die. TSW also focuses on movement. And, because it's skill besed, the veriety of encounters can be even greater, like the final Polaris boss where you can't use a tank. Also, many mobs and bosses in GW2 where mostly "dodge, dogde, dodge, attack, attack, dodge, rinse and repeat" However, that obviously doens't count for all, of not most, of it's encounters. Every AI becomes predictable after a while. Just start to learn the patterns of it's attacks, timing, etc. MMORPG have a far harder time with them simply because in a SP, you play it, finish it, and then, if you start all over, it becomes ALOT easier.

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I've seen people who have been used to conventional tank 'n' spank strategy get confused when they're playing Guild Wars 1 - a game without a conventional tank. There is no way to manipulate aggro in that game, so the players in question described it as being "chaotic" and unpredictable. One player decided that he didn't like it because it didn't have the strict trinity.

 

This and many years of gaming makes me think that trinity makes combat easier. You'd have to bring pretty strong evidence to contrary to make me change my mind.

Every combat in a trinity game goes along the same formula: the tank holds aggro and takes hits, the healer keeps the tank from dying, DPS does damage. There is very little change. Few games add minor party roles such as buffer and controller etc. and many add secondary roles, but all of them rely on the same trinity backbone. It is predictable, it is arcaic, it has no connection to real combat and I've grown bored with it.

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Trinity combat isn't inherently any easier, but it depends on how the fights themselves are setup. It's all about timing, and learning the 'dance'. This can be as hard or as easy as the developer makes it.

Personally, I prefer the non-trinity combat. I like the chaos. It is just more fun.

 

Additionally, it doesn't matter to you and to how you play your role what other classes are filling the other slots.

Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.

These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".

 

Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising

For example?

Ok, out of the top of my head:

Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point

Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to.

Randomness: again, too vague.

Player Housing:  So?

Complex Crafting and resources:  Hmm. I find that debatable.

Detailed (representative) Inventory Icons: sounds trivial.

Item Customization:  What old MMO's had this, which didn't.

Large number of classes or skill builds:  all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds.

customizing builds: see former point

Inter-faction interaction:  what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.

RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.): sitting in chairs is possible in more MMO's

I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.

Nice rebuttal. I particularly like the part at the end where you call me a n00b from days of yore. Thanks for the laugh.

Originally posted by ignore_me

Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.

These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".

 

Nope, that whole list hasn't been dropped, this sounds like some sandbox lamentation that's false history revising

For example?

Ok, out of the top of my head:

Factions for NPCs/Mobs: don't know exactly what's meant with this point

Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances: don't know what he was referring to.

Randomness: again, too vague.

Player Housing:  So?

Complex Crafting and resources:  Hmm. I find that debatable.

Detailed (representative) Inventory Icons: sounds trivial.

Item Customization:  What old MMO's had this, which didn't.

Large number of classes or skill builds:  all games I could think of right away that have large number of possible builds.

customizing builds: see former point

Inter-faction interaction:  what old MMO's are we talking about that had strict factions between which players could interact? I'm curious. Anyway, TSW has inter-faction interaction, and I think Darkfall.

RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.): sitting in chairs is possible in more MMO's

I think that the original poster of these points was purely looking at like 2, maybe 3 old MMO's ignoring the rest. Maybe those were the only MMO's he played in that time, and because he didn't like the MMO's post-WoW didn't play them, so doesn't know what features they have and what not. In any case, if you want to compare, then you should take into account more than just a few MMO's.

Nice rebuttal. I particularly like the part at the end where you call me a n00b from days of yore. Thanks for the laugh.

? Well, good for you that you were amused. I don't recall saying that you were a noob, but I did question that you regarded the old and new MMO's entirely fair, since the feature examples you gave often weren't present in all or even the majority of the old MMO's, and since a number of those features also could be found in newer MMO's, to a higher degree even than in a lot of the old MMO's.

I thought that point was clear. Like said, I'd have liked if you elaborated more upon the questions I posted, but if you don't feel like it, well, that's your good right of course

double post

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Wrong. I never said that those things didn't exist, read what I posted, I said that from what I recall those features weren't dominant and present in all old MMO's or even the majority of them, nor were they exclusive to only the old MMO's.

I played EQ and some of those other old MMO's, and also a number of newer MMO's: I can't recall EQ's faction system being used in the other old MMO's which is kinda lame if that's being used as THE example that old MMO's had that new MMO's haven't, because then the other old MMO's would flunk at that aspect too.

Other newer MMO's used NPC factions in ways that the older MMO's didn't, if you consider those half-assed even without knowing how those new MMO's did it, then most of the other old MMO's excluding EQ did it full-assed, since they have nothing anywhere near EQ's faction system.

 

Same with the other points: if you consider the implementation of those features half-assed in other newer MMO's - merely bc you're one of those people apparently that needs to feel that all new MMO's suck and all old MMO's were heaven and bliss - then other old MMO's were even complete, total failures in those areas. EQ and DAoC failed enormously at player housing and crafting, as good as all old MMO's minus EQ failed big time at NPC factions, DAoC and UO failed at faction interaction etc.

But hey, good luck with dreaming about the old MMO's, I'll not be the person that wants to withhold you from that; hope you have any fun and luck in MMO's the upcoming years since it seems you'll need it.

Ad which ones did, which ones didnt? Because, regarding of old mmos, even vanilla wow is nowadays a old mmo, it had more interesting factions, resists played a a role, enchanting was more interesting, crafting played a much bigger role...

The half assed comes from the requirements and the impact, if you "grind" a faction to full in one day and all you get from it is something which you outleveled a week ago, it will feel half-assed, like player housing where you can put just a table and a chair into one room and choose the color of the curtains, compare that to eq2.

This is how modern mmos unfortunately do most of these things (obviously, there is a huge amount of people which would instantly quit, if they made a mistake choosing a faction, lets just let them use a tabard and enable them to do all to full).

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Banaghran

Ad which ones did, which ones didnt? Because, regarding of old mmos, even vanilla wow is nowadays a old mmo, it had more interesting factions, resists played a a role, enchanting was more interesting, crafting played a much bigger role...

The half assed comes from the requirements and the impact, if you "grind" a faction to full in one day and all you get from it is something which you outleveled a week ago, it will feel half-assed, like player housing where you can put just a table and a chair into one room and choose the color of the curtains, compare that to eq2.

This is how modern mmos unfortunately do most of these things (obviously, there is a huge amount of people which would instantly quit, if they made a mistake choosing a faction, lets just let them use a tabard and enable them to do all to full).

Well, from his comments and features listed I assume he meant MMO's before WoW as the old ones, and the MMO's since WoW as the new ones. In any case, what I said still stands, most of the old MMO's incl EQ, DAoC and AC didn't have player housing just to use one feature as an example

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by Banaghran

Ad which ones did, which ones didnt? Because, regarding of old mmos, even vanilla wow is nowadays a old mmo, it had more interesting factions, resists played a a role, enchanting was more interesting, crafting played a much bigger role...

The half assed comes from the requirements and the impact, if you "grind" a faction to full in one day and all you get from it is something which you outleveled a week ago, it will feel half-assed, like player housing where you can put just a table and a chair into one room and choose the color of the curtains, compare that to eq2.

This is how modern mmos unfortunately do most of these things (obviously, there is a huge amount of people which would instantly quit, if they made a mistake choosing a faction, lets just let them use a tabard and enable them to do all to full).

Well, from his comments and features listed I assume he meant MMO's before WoW as the old ones, and the MMO's since WoW as the new ones. In any case, what I said still stands, most of the old MMO's incl EQ, DAoC and AC didn't have player housing just to use one feature as an example

Well, every game had something, that not every feature was in every game is of little importance (but feel free to explain why you feel it is relevant), its just a list of features which  prolonged gameplay and were either dropped or made extremely simple. Thats all.

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by ignore_me

Some casualties of the newer game climate:

Factions for NPCs/Mobs

Hardly a casuality and hardly matters.

Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances

Not a casuality. If anything needless amount of damage types have been cut because they offer no additional depth to the game, they only complicate things. Complexity =/= depth.

Randomness

This is why I don't care for Bloodbowl for example. You can take the dice variation into account but sometimes even that is not enough. Sometimes the dice fucks you in the ass no matter how good a player you are. And that sucks. Especially in PvP. I don't want to win or lose because of a diceroll.

Player Housing

A minor feature justly cut. The level of detail the fans of this features want is simply not worth it. The work put into it does not bring enough value to the product as a whole. There's a lot more you can put your attention to. I'd imagine this feature would be one of the first ones to go if there'd be trouble staying on schedule. Its not a game maker or a game changer.

Complex Crafting and resources

Complex crafting seems to be very subjective it seems. Also, it tends to bring inconveniences to the majority that is not interested in "complex crafting". For example the lack of an auction house may bring more depth to trading and crafting but it is also a huge inconvenience for your average adventurer.

Detailed (representative) Inventory Icons

I do not know what you mean by this or why this diminishes the quality of newer games in any way.

Item Customization

There's plenty of item customization. TSW and GW2 both have it.

Large number of classes or skill builds

No change here - if anything, it has gone up. See what Vanguard and many others have made is made a huge number of boring classes and boring races that hugely resemble each other. The game still relies heavily on the holy trinity or tank-healer-DPS and only the best combos filling those roles count. Everything else is garbage - wasted manhours.

You could argue that newer games shield you from those shitty builds but the amount of useful builds has pretty much stayed the same - and like I said, if anything the amount has gone up.

customizing builds

Same as the above.

Inter-faction interaction

Don't know what you mean by this. Other than killing, I don't think we need anything more. I feel large player organizations can have adverse effects on the game.

RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.)

Yeah... don't care about this one. I have a pen & paper background and I'd much rather do my RPing there.

Originally posted by Banaghran

Originally posted by cutthecrap

Originally posted by Banaghran

Ad which ones did, which ones didnt? Because, regarding of old mmos, even vanilla wow is nowadays a old mmo, it had more interesting factions, resists played a a role, enchanting was more interesting, crafting played a much bigger role...

The half assed comes from the requirements and the impact, if you "grind" a faction to full in one day and all you get from it is something which you outleveled a week ago, it will feel half-assed, like player housing where you can put just a table and a chair into one room and choose the color of the curtains, compare that to eq2.

This is how modern mmos unfortunately do most of these things (obviously, there is a huge amount of people which would instantly quit, if they made a mistake choosing a faction, lets just let them use a tabard and enable them to do all to full).

Well, from his comments and features listed I assume he meant MMO's before WoW as the old ones, and the MMO's since WoW as the new ones. In any case, what I said still stands, most of the old MMO's incl EQ, DAoC and AC didn't have player housing just to use one feature as an example

Well, every game had something, that not every feature was in every game is of little importance (but feel free to explain why you feel it is relevant), its just a list of features which  prolonged gameplay and were either dropped or made extremely simple. Thats all.

Shrug. If the majority of old MMO's didn't have those features while newer MMO's do have them, then they weren't really a dominant trend in those old MMO's, and aren't really gone or dropped from the new MMO's. Just saying. 'every game has something', sure, that applies to the old MMO's as well as the new MMO's.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by ignore_me

Some casualties of the newer game climate:

Factions for NPCs/Mobs

Hardly a casuality and hardly matters.

Damage Types vs. Specific Resistances

Not a casuality. If anything needless amount of damage types have been cut because they offer no additional depth to the game, they only complicate things. Complexity =/= depth.

Randomness

This is why I don't care for Bloodbowl for example. You can take the dice variation into account but sometimes even that is not enough. Sometimes the dice fucks you in the ass no matter how good a player you are. And that sucks. Especially in PvP. I don't want to win or lose because of a diceroll.

Player Housing

A minor feature justly cut. The level of detail the fans of this features want is simply not worth it. The work put into it does not bring enough value to the product as a whole. There's a lot more you can put your attention to. I'd imagine this feature would be one of the first ones to go if there'd be trouble staying on schedule. Its not a game maker or a game changer.

Complex Crafting and resources

Complex crafting seems to be very subjective it seems. Also, it tends to bring inconveniences to the majority that is not interested in "complex crafting". For example the lack of an auction house may bring more depth to trading and crafting but it is also a huge inconvenience for your average adventurer.

Detailed (representative) Inventory Icons

I do not know what you mean by this or why this diminishes the quality of newer games in any way.

Item Customization

There's plenty of item customization. TSW and GW2 both have it.

Large number of classes or skill builds

No change here - if anything, it has gone up. See what Vanguard and many others have made is made a huge number of boring classes and boring races that hugely resemble each other. The game still relies heavily on the holy trinity or tank-healer-DPS and only the best combos filling those roles count. Everything else is garbage - wasted manhours.

You could argue that newer games shield you from those shitty builds but the amount of useful builds has pretty much stayed the same - and like I said, if anything the amount has gone up.

customizing builds

Same as the above.

Inter-faction interaction

Don't know what you mean by this. Other than killing, I don't think we need anything more. I feel large player organizations can have adverse effects on the game.

RP tools (chat bubbles, sitting in chairs, etc.)

Yeah... don't care about this one. I have a pen & paper background and I'd much rather do my RPing there.

 

You could have saved yourself some time and just said, "I don't care about any of this stuff."

Originally posted by NorseGod

Another thing I'd like to point out about themeparks is that I question why they even bother with creating a world.

Seriously, why bother?

WOW for example, you stand in Org waiting for dungeon finder to pop, which warps you to the entrance and back to Org when done. Or fly past everything and everyone on a mount.

Tbh, I'm not really sure.

I loved WoW but I loved it for all the stuff nobody else did. I never raided and rarely went into instances. Yet, I wondered what the purpose of the world was.

To the tired "game starts at max level" my response always was "then why have anything else".

I never figured out that paradox, my theory is that a huge chunk of the WoW playerbase are actually world-dwellers and it earns WoW tons of subscribers.

Originally posted by NorseGod

Can you imagine the "new gamer" trying to figure out NPC factions? They can barely handle 2 player factions. There's a reason that whole list has been dropped.

These are the same kids that got trophies for being on the losing team because "everybody is a winner".

As a new player to WoW I loved all sorts of random stuff WoW used to have, like factions, or the fact that you had to train your weapons. I think you underestimate new players / casuals.

The people who got trophies are min-maxers, silly. Casuals don't care about trophies... or gear, or "content" or "endgame" or "progression". People who care about that are, by definition, not casual. We go fishing and do quests and walk around and crap, and then have to suffer various namecalling where everyone from battle.net forums to mmorpg.com thinks we're either noobs, idiots, kids in basements, or ruiners of games...

Originally posted by NorseGod

Another thing I'd like to point out about themeparks is that I question why they even bother with creating a world.

Seriously, why bother?

WOW for example, you stand in Org waiting for dungeon finder to pop, which warps you to the entrance and back to Org when done. Or fly past everything and everyone on a mount.

No need to talk to others, no need to go out into the world at all. Everything you need is in an auction house. Apply same rule to PVP.

I remember a time when people had to plan a dungeon raid. Run ON FOOT across the world fighting along the way to a dungeon to kill a boss that only spawns every 2 days just for a sword drop, not tokens or random loot.

Wait, it gets better. Other players were there too and your group had to kill their group. Either at the dungeon, in the dungeon, hell, in the middle of the woods in route to the dungeon.

This stuff use to be a big deal.

That is easy to explain.

1) Flying mounts are added in BC.

2) LFD/LFR is added MUCH later *after* the world is created.

Blizzard did NOT know that their players want a lobby game until much later. Look at Diablo 3. They make it with some MMO features (AH, crafting) and did not go the full MMO route because they know that there is no point to a world.

"I remember a time when people had to plan a dungeon raid. Run ON FOOT across the world fighting along the way to a dungeon to kill a boss that only spawns every 2 days just for a sword drop, not tokens or random loot." .. that is precisely FEW players ever want to do. Too much boring work. Too much commitment. People want to pop in the game and play a while, not living in it.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Blizzard did NOT know that their players want a lobby game until much later. Look at Diablo 3. They make it with some MMO features (AH, crafting) and did not go the full MMO route because they know that there is no point to a world.

Or maybe because Diablo III is a sequel to a game of a complete different genre? No, that can't possibly be it.

WoW would fall apart without a world, I assure you.

All i know is that I was ragged on when I posted thought out criticisms about SWTOR pre-release, and 6months later I find out that most people agree with me NOW rather than then?

Then TERA is touted as the next "AwesomeSaucery" to hit the market, and I also post thought out criticisms about the product only to be ragged on yet again. Only to find out after the launch that quite a few agree with most of my points, yet again.

Mind you every game should have a fair amount of criticism to give people a fair shake as to what the product actually is without bias or spin from the paid-off media. So there will NEVER be a "perfect" game that should never be criticized. People seem to have the wrong idea that to give criticism means you're trolling or "Hating" on a product, and that is quite simply not true.

All of the points the OP brought up I've brought up with SWTOR, TERA, RIFT, etc and I was shot down at the time (I believe the "Hype Monster" had many in its grasp).

So now GW2 & TSW are coming around the corner and the amount of bias & hype revolving around those products are like a twin-pulsar cluster that will fry you before you could even get close enough to form an opinion. TSW is a themepark by design, and GW2 is a SandPark, yet both are being hailed in their own respects as untouchables.

What exactly is going on with our community here O_o?

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

All i know is that I was ragged on when I posted thought out criticisms about SWTOR pre-release, and 6months later I find out that most people agree with me NOW rather than then?

 

Then TERA is touted as the next "AwesomeSaucery" to hit the market, and I also post thought out criticisms about the product only to be ragged on yet again. Only to find out after the launch that quite a few agree with most of my points, yet again.

 

Mind you every game should have a fair amount of criticism to give people a fair shake as to what the product actually is without bias or spin from the paid-off media. So there will NEVER be a "perfect" game that should never be criticized. People seem to have the wrong idea that to give criticism means you're trolling or "Hating" on a product, and that is quite simply not true.

 

All of the points the OP brought up I've brought up with SWTOR, TERA, RIFT, etc and I was shot down at the time (I believe the "Hype Monster" had many in its grasp).

 

So now GW2 & TSW are coming around the corner and the amount of bias & hype revolving around those products are like a twin-pulsar cluster that will fry you before you could even get close enough to form an opinion. TSW is a themepark by design, and GW2 is a SandPark, yet both are being hailed in their own respects as untouchables.

 

What exactly is going on with our community here O_o?

Would you like a cross?  It is THE prop for martyrs.

Originally posted by Irus

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Blizzard did NOT know that their players want a lobby game until much later. Look at Diablo 3. They make it with some MMO features (AH, crafting) and did not go the full MMO route because they know that there is no point to a world.

Or maybe because Diablo III is a sequel to a game of a complete different genre? No, that can't possibly be it.

WoW would fall apart without a world, I assure you.

The genre are converging. Diablo 3 has MMO elements (AH, crafting). Many MMOs are more like Diablo than open world games (DDO, WOW LFD/LFR, ....)

And Diablo 3 has a lot of the player base as MMO/WOW. How many WOW players are playing D3? At least 1.2M.

The point is that a well made lobby-based co-op ARPG can be as successful, if not MORE successful (D3 is prob more successful in terms of player numbers & revenue than 95% of the MMOs) than a traditional virtual world MMO.