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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Kickstarter and its "Deceptive Future" an opinion

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124 posts found
  xmenty

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/22/10
Posts: 691

5/26/12 3:08:38 PM#21

I should think if they want to make their own game atleast they can make their own Tech Demo.

FFS the 3 of them used to be high paid salary men and they cannot fork out 50k between the 3 of them?

For me they have lost their integrity by asking kickstarter for a Tech Demo.

And also one of them Ryan Scott Dancey used to be called "the Steve Jobs of MMO Marketing" .

Bet he can whisper sweet things in your ears just to get more funds.

Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language :)

  Khalathwyr

Tipster

Joined: 6/02/04
Posts: 3151

Google is your friend.

5/26/12 3:08:44 PM#22

Nah, I think it's more of a case of you being bull headed.

1) The Goblinworks crew is outlining what they intend to do with the game every two weeks via their blog.

2) Paizo, Goblinworks parent comapny is a long standing company with legitimate history.

3) It was explicitly, no matter if you personally read it or not, stated by GW that the KS was for  their tech demo from which they wish to secure even more money that wouldn't be possible via KS.

 

As far as #3 goes, eveyone who donated knew this and wanted to help GW get that demo done based on the games direction via the blogs. That may not personally be enough for you to pull out your wallet, but it is for others. Just because it's not good enough for you doesn't invalidate it. You just don't believe in their game direction (or have not read it from the sounds of it), which is fine.

Again, everyone who donated knows this isn't a for sure deal. You only have to look at 38 studios to see that. This said, many of us are tired of the current themepark fad. You may not be, cool. But we are and as so many of you out there who screamed at sandbox gamers to put their money where their mouth is, well, we're doing it.

"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."

Kickstarter 1 / Naysayers 0

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12126

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

5/26/12 3:36:39 PM#23
Originally posted by Unkillable

i offically predict here that the kickstarter site, within 1 year will soon feel like a "pay for promise" site and that much of this "funding" is going to dissapoint people in the long run, leading to people thinking throwing money at ideas is the future of mmo deveolpment, which i hope to god its not. i smell the breath of money, and it stinks.

I am hoping that Kickstater starts to become more stringent in what they allow before that happens. Kickstarter is ideal for projects such as Pathfinder Online. Seasoned professionals in the industry with a list of released titles and a solid understanding of what is necessary to develop, market and maintain a project such as theirs in today's market. Unfortunately, as a result of recent projects in the media, we're seeing a lot of crap pour onto kickstarter by people that shouldn't even been allowed in the door.

There's been a spike of small 'studios' of people with no business plan, no experience and a 'demo' that is little more than a guy running in the one zone they created in whatever free/cheap engine they recently downloaded. Their credentials are often a proud declaration of having played games for x years, as if driving for x years qualifies one as an expert in building a car. These are what will be a detriment to Kickstarter, and I really feel that Kickstarter needs to find a way to put an effective filter in.

 

Until then, my advice to people interested in backing projects is to look at their industry experience and past releases. A team of people who have actually made and released a commercial game are far more likely to be able to pull it off than people who have never done so before. They are infinitely more likely to do so than people who have no experience in developing and releasing a game yet are clearly unaware of what they do not know yet.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  aionix

Novice Member

Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 296

5/26/12 3:38:21 PM#24

People investing in a product with their own money upsets you?  Why do you even care OP?  Because projects that couldn't be funded other than word of mouth are utilizing mediums like kickstarter to get a chance at being completed?  Because some people have excess money in these hard times because they saved and invested properly are now wanting to spend some of it into something that interests them?

 

I'm actually confused at what the issue and point of this thread is.  The kickstarter page of this project does not dupe you, doesn't steal your bank account information, nor force you into concentration camps for not paying. 

 

Point: Who cares what other people want to spend their money on if it doesnt negativly effect yourself.

  xxpigxx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/02/06
Posts: 412

5/26/12 3:59:29 PM#25
Originally posted by Unkillable

 

I dont understand how anyone could dish out 100 grand for a game that doesnt have any details about ANY game features or systems or models,  screenshots, videos of gameplay, or any other info besides : heres our team they have a lot of experience give us money. ie: Pathfinder Online


 
does anyone else find this to be extremely vague? i mean wtf is going on here? honestly? this game has 100k$ pledged into it, and i cant find a screenshot of gameplay. needless to say this worries me a tad.
 
You are worried because people are investing in a good idea?  It is their money, and quite frankly, they can do with it as they please.  People invest in ideas on a daily basis.  Many ideas fall through, but some do come to fruition.
 
Welcome to life.
 

it seems this game and EoC as well, are getting tons of money, based off of proposed ideas and promise of delivery ALONE. this doesnt suit me at all. i personally sparked a thread created by a dev today based off the fact that EoC hasnt even begun to hash out the details behind their games Stat system.

my post over on the Embers of Caerus found  here: http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/1294-EoC-Stat-System-Explained made some waves over there today and ultimatly lead to this post:

http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/349-Random-starter-stats-and-natural-attributes

 

Okay.  I am not seeing the correaltion here.  You asked for more details on the state system on the first thread, and the devs said they have an idea on how it is going to work, but will not release anything until it is tested out, so as not to have to drastically change anything (LINK).
 
That is logical, and you even said so yourself in the same thread (LINK).
 
The only waves made were by you leaving in a huff because they did not give you what you were asking for, abnd something that you yourself stated that you are withholding from the public about your IP in developement.
 
The first thread did not lead to the second thread.  The second thread was made in October of 2011, and your thread was made in May 2012.
 
The second thread also states that a dev is just randomly musing, and it is not intended to imply that it was going in game.  Perhaps you missed the first sentence of the OP:  "Here is a random, not-related-to-what-we-have-planned Monday discussion topic for you all to mull over (much like the optional permadeath thread)." and the last sentence of the OP:  "To re-iterate, this isn't a planned feature, I just thought it was an interesting theoretical/philosophical discussion topic."
 
 

i offically predict here that the kickstarter site, within 1 year will soon feel like a "pay for promise" site and that much of this "funding" is going to dissapoint people in the long run, leading to people thinking throwing money at ideas is the future of mmo deveolpment, which i hope to god its not. i smell the breath of money, and it stinks.

I think you are lashing out after /ragequitting (LINK), because they would not answer a question that you yourself stated that you would not answer concerning your game.

 

Quite honestly, there are hundreds of kickstarters available.  All based on ideas.  Some ideas are more developed, but they all go back to an idea, and finding people who share that same idea.

 

And as I stated before, it is their money, and quite frankly, they can do with it as they please.  People invest in ideas on a daily basis.  Many ideas fall through, but some do come to fruition.

 

Welcome to life.

 
  Romtim

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 182

5/26/12 4:42:30 PM#26
Originally posted by xxpigxx
Originally posted by Unkillable

 

I dont understand how anyone could dish out 100 grand for a game that doesnt have any details about ANY game features or systems or models,  screenshots, videos of gameplay, or any other info besides : heres our team they have a lot of experience give us money. ie: Pathfinder Online


 
does anyone else find this to be extremely vague? i mean wtf is going on here? honestly? this game has 100k$ pledged into it, and i cant find a screenshot of gameplay. needless to say this worries me a tad.
 
You are worried because people are investing in a good idea?  It is their money, and quite frankly, they can do with it as they please.  People invest in ideas on a daily basis.  Many ideas fall through, but some do come to fruition.
 
Welcome to life.
 

it seems this game and EoC as well, are getting tons of money, based off of proposed ideas and promise of delivery ALONE. this doesnt suit me at all. i personally sparked a thread created by a dev today based off the fact that EoC hasnt even begun to hash out the details behind their games Stat system.

my post over on the Embers of Caerus found  here: http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/1294-EoC-Stat-System-Explained made some waves over there today and ultimatly lead to this post:

http://www.embersofcaerus.com/forum/showthread.php/349-Random-starter-stats-and-natural-attributes

 

Okay.  I am not seeing the correaltion here.  You asked for more details on the state system on the first thread, and the devs said they have an idea on how it is going to work, but will not release anything until it is tested out, so as not to have to drastically change anything (LINK).
 
That is logical, and you even said so yourself in the same thread (LINK).
 
The only waves made were by you leaving in a huff because they did not give you what you were asking for, abnd something that you yourself stated that you are withholding from the public about your IP in developement.
 
The first thread did not lead to the second thread.  The second thread was made in October of 2011, and your thread was made in May 2012.
 
The second thread also states that a dev is just randomly musing, and it is not intended to imply that it was going in game.  Perhaps you missed the first sentence of the OP:  "Here is a random, not-related-to-what-we-have-planned Monday discussion topic for you all to mull over (much like the optional permadeath thread)." and the last sentence of the OP:  "To re-iterate, this isn't a planned feature, I just thought it was an interesting theoretical/philosophical discussion topic."
 
 

i offically predict here that the kickstarter site, within 1 year will soon feel like a "pay for promise" site and that much of this "funding" is going to dissapoint people in the long run, leading to people thinking throwing money at ideas is the future of mmo deveolpment, which i hope to god its not. i smell the breath of money, and it stinks.

I think you are lashing out after /ragequitting (LINK), because they would not answer a question that you yourself stated that you would not answer concerning your game.

 

Quite honestly, there are hundreds of kickstarters available.  All based on ideas.  Some ideas are more developed, but they all go back to an idea, and finding people who share that same idea.

 

And as I stated before, it is their money, and quite frankly, they can do with it as they please.  People invest in ideas on a daily basis.  Many ideas fall through, but some do come to fruition.

 

Welcome to life.

 

THIS

  Unkillable

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/12
Posts: 109

 
OP  5/26/12 4:46:48 PM#27

everyone has valid points that i cannot argue.

the thread title has "an opinion" in it

and i can see its 40% agree and 60% disagree and this cannot be argued as well.

i honestly posted this about my concern for the future of mmos, and not because im the worlds keeper, these kinda of counterpoints are silly.

as far as pathfinder is concerned let them do whatever they want, i agree with the fella that said they might not have needed to ask for money for a tech demo, but i know nothing about them.

what i do know is that people need a new decent game to play and maybe 2 years from now there might be 2 or 3 of them out, and in the end thats all we want, lets be honest.

despiration brings out _________ in people. you fill in the blank.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/26/12 4:53:28 PM#28

Sending money to a Kickstarter represents trust.

If you give away your trust to a team like that of Embers of Caerus, that's up to you.  While I haven't exactly spent  a long time researching that dev team, the fact that they're not openly volunteering their experience on the kickstarter or their website (unless it's buried in the forums) means it would be a tremendous leap of faith to assume they're going to (a) finish the product and (b) have something fun.

And if that's not enough, they ran a poll of whether or not players' accounts should be forced to have pre-determined stats.  They're making a sandbox, a game whose sole purpose is to provide players with more agency than typical MMOs, and they're thinking about removing one of the most basic forms of player agency?

Meanwhile at least with Pathfinder Online they have some veterancy showing, even if it's not much more..

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

5/26/12 4:58:01 PM#29

A lot of people pay money for entertaining hype already.

  Romtim

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 182

5/26/12 5:04:06 PM#30
Originally posted by Axehilt

Sending money to a Kickstarter represents trust.

If you give away your trust to a team like that of Embers of Caerus, that's up to you.  While I haven't exactly spent  a long time researching that dev team, the fact that they're not openly volunteering their experience on the kickstarter or their website (unless it's buried in the forums) means it would be a tremendous leap of faith to assume they're going to (a) finish the product and (b) have something fun.

And if that's not enough, they ran a poll of whether or not players' accounts should be forced to have pre-determined stats.  They're making a sandbox, a game whose sole purpose is to provide players with more agency than typical MMOs, and they're thinking about removing one of the most basic forms of player agency?

Meanwhile at least with Pathfinder Online they have some veterancy showing, even if it's not much more..

They have stated their experience on the kickstarter.

  Foncl

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/11
Posts: 186

5/26/12 5:13:42 PM#31

Throwing money at people based on their optimistic ideas and visions without gaining a share in the project just seems really wierd to me. It's not investing money since you don't get any share of the profit, it's throwing money at someone and hoping they do something good with it.

 

I don't think most people who give money on kickstarter realize how beneficial that kind of funding is for the developer compared to getting regular investor money, they take no risk at all with that kind of funding. No risk means you get delusional optimists with wacky ideas looking for people to throw money at them. It may look and sound good on kickstarter but taking it from the concept stage to an actual good game takes alot of work from talented people.

 

I would consider investing money in a project I believe in to support it and make some money if there's proper security for my investment. That way the developer is taking a risk so if things go south he takes a hit aswell, which means he believes in the project enough to take a risk aswell.

 

I'm anticipating the first big kickstarter scandal/scam in the near future and I don't think it will be pretty.

  Unkillable

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/12
Posts: 109

 
OP  5/26/12 5:21:05 PM#32
Originally posted by Foncl

Throwing money at people based on their optimistic ideas and visions without gaining a share in the project just seems really wierd to me. It's not investing money since you don't get any share of the profit, it's throwing money at someone and hoping they do something good with it.

 

I don't think most people who give money on kickstarter realize how beneficial that kind of funding is for the developer compared to getting regular investor money, they take no risk at all with that kind of funding. No risk means you get delusional optimists with wacky ideas looking for people to throw money at them. It may look and sound good on kickstarter but taking it from the concept stage to an actual good game takes alot of work from talented people.

 

I would consider investing money in a project I believe in to support it and make some money if there's proper security for my investment. That way the developer is taking a risk so if things go south he takes a hit aswell, which means he believes in the project enough to take a risk aswell.

 

I'm anticipating the first big kickstarter scandal/scam in the near future and I don't think it will be pretty.

THIS^

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

5/26/12 5:21:11 PM#33
Originally posted by Romtim

They have stated their experience on the kickstarter.

Ah, didn't notice that before.

But did you even read it? 

Certainly nothing there which contradicts my earlier point.

  UsulDaNeriak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/07
Posts: 642

5/26/12 5:22:42 PM#34

imo the info about pathfinder in their blogs are pretty detailed and the concepts are interesting and promising.

its all about hope or propabilities. you can donate to alleviate world hunger or to make a real good sandbox MMO happen. actually, the probability that we can overcome world hunger is much higher.

played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5185

5/26/12 5:26:25 PM#35
Originally posted by Unkillable
Originally posted by Foncl

Throwing money at people based on their optimistic ideas and visions without gaining a share in the project just seems really wierd to me. It's not investing money since you don't get any share of the profit, it's throwing money at someone and hoping they do something good with it.

 

I don't think most people who give money on kickstarter realize how beneficial that kind of funding is for the developer compared to getting regular investor money, they take no risk at all with that kind of funding. No risk means you get delusional optimists with wacky ideas looking for people to throw money at them. It may look and sound good on kickstarter but taking it from the concept stage to an actual good game takes alot of work from talented people.

 

I would consider investing money in a project I believe in to support it and make some money if there's proper security for my investment. That way the developer is taking a risk so if things go south he takes a hit aswell, which means he believes in the project enough to take a risk aswell.

 

I'm anticipating the first big kickstarter scandal/scam in the near future and I don't think it will be pretty.

THIS^

 Only if you consider it an invstment, which it isn't. It's a charity and people give as much for a feeling of participation as anything else.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5185

5/26/12 5:31:24 PM#36
Originally posted by Axehilt

And if that's not enough, they ran a poll of whether or not players' accounts should be forced to have pre-determined stats.  They're making a sandbox, a game whose sole purpose is to provide players with more agency than typical MMOs, and they're thinking about removing one of the most basic forms of player agency?

 It's not predetermined stats. It's random starting stats like in the D&D PnP game. It was just an idea he threw out there to get responses.

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Unkillable

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/12
Posts: 109

 
OP  5/26/12 5:45:14 PM#37

i like where this thread is headed...fair, and all points and sides shown.

  rsdancey

Novice Member

Joined: 12/04/08
Posts: 31

5/26/12 7:45:25 PM#38

Hi Unkillable, I'm Ryan Dancey, the CEO of Goblinworks. I'll try to answer some of your questions.

Our first, and primary motivation for doing a Kickstarter is to raise awareness about the project and provide some objective "proof" that people want a game like we're proposing to make. Kickstarter has become THE PLACE to do this. There are investors, media, potential employees, and potential customers who are watching Kickstarter very carefully. A successful project helps validate our claims that our game has a chance to succeed.

The money is also important. This is a high-risk venture, and every dollar we raise helps us reduce the direct personal financial risk of working on it. Without Kickstarter we'd be funding this demo out of pocket. With the Kickstarter, we're going to have a big portion of those costs shared with the community. That increases our sense of obligation to get it done and make it awesome (not that we wouldn't have a huge sense of responsibility anyway, but it's just taking that need to a whole new level). Now its not just our skin in the game, but over 1,500 other people's too.

We think that if we tried to run our first Kickstarter to fund the whole game we'd have a very high risk of failure, and that failure would cascade for the reasons I mentioned above. We need to learn how to maximize the impact of our Kickstarters, and how to work with the tools Kickstarter gives us, plus things like off-site marketing and promotions. Its a fairly steep learning curve. It took nearly 3 weeks just to get our video ready, and there's still a lot about it that bugs me.

So we decided that it made sense to pick a smaller, more rapidly achievable goal, something that we could pitch that conformed to Kickstarter's guidelines, and that wouldn't be catastrophic if it didn't work. The Tech Demo Kickstarter is a tremendous success, and that makes me happy. So we are off to a good start - a better start than we would have been if we had never done a Kickstarter at all.

The one thing that we have been absolutely, totally clear about from the first was that the Kickstarter was NOT about making an MMO. There are no rewards that link to the MMO at all. Every reward level is something that we can produce and deliver in the short term. We're not taking any money at all on the promise that someday, something you got on Kickstarter will be in the finished project. We felt that was absolutely important to ensure that there was no chance of a misunderstanding or miscommunication with the people who backed the project. And so far, there's been no signs of that, so I think that worked as planned.

I hope this helps you understand our thinking and strategy!

RyanD

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

5/26/12 7:58:32 PM#39

We certainly get a lot of devs these days on the forums answering general MMORPG.com banter.

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

5/26/12 8:02:12 PM#40
Originally posted by AdamTM

We certainly get a lot of devs these days on the forums answering general MMORPG.com banter.

It's because the definition of a Dev is now as obscure as the definition of an MMO these days lol.

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