Originally posted by WardTheGreat

Originally posted by snapfusion

So let me see Rift "ripped" this off from GW2 a game that hasnt shipped yet, but they also ripped this off from DAOC but GW2 didnt rip this off from DAOC?  Okay got it.

Or did you mean to say GW2 and Rift ripped this off from DAOC but since Rift has been out for a couple of years then they have ripped it off less that GW2 will have when it finally ships.

Or do you just have a problem with Rift since its not the game your currenly playing and feel the need to trash it?  Probably this.

Your post reaks of some sort of bizzare jealousy, love hate thing.  Maybe Rift (and every other game you dont play aneymore) to you is like some ex girl friend hangup,  The post was very strange but its pretty clear who your new love is, you know that game that ripped off both Rifts dynamic events and DAOC''s three faction server verse server system, and a class system very very simlar to Fallen Earth,  Oh, but in this case its "okay" because thats the game "you" want to play.

 

I wouldn't go as far as to say a ripoff, but at least get your facts straight.  While GW2 hasn't shipped yet, it has been in development since 2007, and from the very beginning they wanted to emulate DAoC PvP, but expand upon it.  Not only that, but some of their main developers were at Mythic in the conception days of DAoC, so it is only natural.

Now Trion, is going against their own lore, and what they built in the beginning because they see this feature and the pull it is having with a lot of PvP'ers.  This is very similar to what WoW would do when a new MMO would hit the scene with new features, they would take those features and paste them into their game.  That's why I can understand him saying its a ripoff, because it wasn't a feature they planned to ship with, it wasn't a feature they supported in the beginning when a lot of us DAoC fans were asking for some meaningful World PvP, but now that they see what this feature is bringing to the new competition, and they are trying to implement it into their game in a way that doesn't really sit well with their own lore. 

 

Okay got it, if its not in from day one you cant add it or your going against your own lore and ripping someone off. 

Instanced three faction PvP? Nice try but, No.

Originally posted by cerebrix

This thread makes me think about something that has been troubling me.

 

There's a lot of simple minded gamers out there.  I realize that most of these gamers started their mmo experience with wow.  However few would mention it spouting off a list of old school games to be used as a "winning forum argument" in the face of those observations.

 

Firstly, its impossible for an original IP to "go against lore".  The lore of an original IP is whatever they say it is.  This also holds true for Warcraft.  Going against lore would make sense in Star Wars or Star Trek.  Like seeing an original Enterprise from the Original series in the game when its supposed to take place 50 years after the next generation.  THAT is going against lore.  When you invent the lore in the first place though, lore is whatever you say it is, when you say it is.  Theres nothing from that storyline before you that you really need to adhere to.  Some of you wont understand that.  But someone needed to clarify that in here.

 

Also saying Trion is desperate is hating for the sake of hating.  Which a lot of american's seem to love to do.  I'd say its more of a national pasttime than baseball is.  It's how so many people I come across battle through insecurity to "look cool".  By trashing something, or someone else.

 

In reality, Trion is only doing what they've done for months and months since this game launched.  They listened to the players, listened to what they wanted, and then they gave it to them.  There's really no other company out there doing that. 

Just a thought but...

Essentially when creating a universe you need to do a couple of things.

1. You need to give said universe some sort of basis in reality, something that people can relate to, it doesn't matter how obsecure, it could be an intangiable concept like, 'love', as long as people can understand that in their own world it can work.

2. You need to create some ground rules so everyone can understand was is and isn't possible in your new universe.  This is for a dual purpose as it's relates to your reality again, (i.e. in this world we need oxygen to survive without it we die), but it also highlights tension when our protaginists might be without them or something is always deadly to them, (vampires and daylight). Also crucially it needs to be stuck too so gains crediability.

There are more elements needed of course but these two highlight important points.  

Lets take for example The Matrix and were it can go wrong and how it relates to your RIFT.

The first Matrix film was a standout successful IP launch 13 years ago now.  In that universe humanity had been almost wiped out as a race by their former mechanical servants.  However a few could, 'jack into' ,the Matrix construct, which was used as a form of control over humans that were farmed as a energy source.  Inside the Matrix these chosen few could perform amazing feats and in Neo could achieve almost godlike power.  Outside the construct however they were constantly on the run as they were powerless to stop the physical machines if caught. An interesting concept, (especially considering the first emergence of viable online worlds at the time), people loved the idea, the universe and it was easily understandable as were the heroes limits.

However they royally fucked this up by the second film when Neo started affecting machines outside the Matrix as well.  A lot of people speculated that maybe the survivors, 'reality', was actually another level of the Matrix.  Those people were sorely disapointed by the third film, when it was all dismissed by the Oracle character as, 'The power of the one can affect machines outside the Matrix'.

So you see they established their lore by the end of the first film and then because it suited their philosophical mumblings, (or maybe as some suggested only had material for two films and had to fill out extra stuff for a third to keep WB happy), changed things and lost peoples faith and respect.  

How many people these days attend Matrix conventions? How many are still eager for licensed products? Barely any, while some like Star Wars keep going. Why? Because for all the crap Lucas has produced they stick to the rules he layed down in the 70's.  It may be he's lore but even he isn't stupid enough to give Jedi godpowers for the sake of selling a new book/game.  People and long term fans would be aghast and might think twice in the future about investing emotionally in that universe.  Why would they if your just going to change the rules again?

Onto RIFT, their universe is basically one of planar invasion.  Essentially is it Markos(?) wants to enslave everyone using dimensional portals to bring evilness to kill everyone.  There are two sides opposed to this with different approaches. There's an instancer of time travel on the Defaint side, but thats told to us as a fluke 1 in a million lucky thing. That is understandable enough.

However now they are saying that you can access a sliver to go to another reality and join one of three sides to kill the other two sides, just like that.  When did this happen? Why was this nevermentioned before? If they can access other realites why not just get out of town and go live on one of these other, 'realites'? Oh and why would I want to join some other faction in another reality when i already have a faction?

This to me is pretty lore breaking and some people who like RIFT will consider it as such.  Yes, it's, 'their', universe but people have to be able to understand that universe to buy into it.  You cannot just change the rules because you want to create a bastardised version of the thing your most famous for, (RvR), and are hoping to head off competition with it.

I've always seen TRION as a company with a chip on their shoulder.  For many of them I think they feel they should have been the ones who were as successful as WoW became back when they were at Mythic.  This particularly rangled them when WoW introduced cross server battle grounds and called them , 'RvR'.  WAR never ended up being the game we hoped it would but they wanted to kill WoW so badly, the motivation from that passed onto this game. I've never heard them once admit any mistakes which seems to smack of arrogance seeings as the list is long on that count now.

Although RIFT is a more stable product I can't help but feel if they stuck to what they were really good at, (RvR,open world PvP),  they'd have had much more success then apeing their more successful neighbours.

why do these people keep on calling these large battlegrounds/warzones open world ?

these ripping off gw2 comments are funny, since it is obvious that  both sides are getting ideas from each other.

Originally posted by Mannish

I dont play this game but its one that I really respect. This sounds very intresting.

My feelings.

ITS NOT OPEN WORLD

AT least not my definition of open world.  To me, open world indicates an actual part of the world itself, a part you would travel to to adventure in.

There is only one way to get to conquest:  you queue for it.

Its a battleground/warfront/warzone.  Yeah, its a big zone with a lot going on.  But does anyone consider Alterac valley open world PvP?  

And another important thing:  its not persistent. 

This is nothing like DAoC.

1)Better late than never is my first reaction

2) So are their keep and tower fights ?

3) 5000 deaths. Have you watches how fast people die in GW2 in the mysts.I cannot immagine  a fight to lasting close to two weeks.Not even close.Why have a timer of any kind. DAOC the game they arre copying to some degree has a persistent 24/7  rvr area. NO TIMER NO DEATH COUNT just an eternal faction vs faction struggle.

These guys still don't get it

-15 minute fights are like a kiddee game of tag

-5000 deaths.I'm guessing a week to do that on busy servers.then pretend it never happened and repeat ?? !!

Originally posted by SQTO

why do these people keep on calling these large battlegrounds/warzones open world ?

these ripping off gw2 comments are funny, since it is obvious that  both sides are getting ideas from each other.

 

Its Trion that is using OPEN WORLD.  They are using misleading buzz words to entice people, which will backfire once people realize its just a 3 way battleground (which in itself is a cool idea, but dont try to pass it off as anything more)

and as for ripping off gw2, consider the two known things in their next patch:

a version of three faction PvP

a critter trapping pokemonish minigame

Shouldnt they be focusing on what Rift does instead of what Arenanet and Blizzard are doing?

Originally posted by Puremallace

People might say it is a rip off, but name another company that released with 2 faction game and then just decided to add another one.

 

Name another game so threatened by a release of a competitor they have to completely break lore/immersion to desperately add in a big feature of that competition.

They arent adding a third faction, they are pooling everyone together and having them choose one of three teams 100% unrelated to the original two factons.

Originally posted by teakbois

Originally posted by Puremallace

People might say it is a rip off, but name another company that released with 2 faction game and then just decided to add another one.

 

Name another game so threatened by a release of a competitor they have to completely break lore/immersion to desperately add in a big feature of that competition.

 

They arent adding a third faction, they are pooling everyone together and having them choose one of three teams 100% unrelated to the original two factons.

 

 

I think they are wise to do this. Adding a third faction at this point would casue a whole slew of problems. This is probably the cleanest way to implement this kind of system at this point in the games life.

Originally posted by Yamota

Instanced three faction PvP? Nice try but, No.

Each to their own.

They are adding great new content that will please so many , some people seem to prefer they didnt (why!) if tey dont like it dont do it, or its like getting free food then moaning about it as it didnt come with ketchup...

For me I prefer it to be instanced as it seperates the pve from the pvp - i dont want both to exist at the same time. I do either depending on my mood.

The only real issue i have with this is that it fragments the server even more by splitting up everyone into thirds.  Other than that, it's a great addition.

No doubt they're feeling the incoming release of GW2 as a reason to do this now, but the people saying they stole it from them are being a bit silly.

Originally posted by Sorrow

Originally posted by cerebrix

 

Firstly, its impossible for an original IP to "go against lore".  The lore of an original IP is whatever they say it is.  This also holds true for Warcraft.  Going against lore would make sense in Star Wars or Star Trek.  Like seeing an original Enterprise from the Original series in the game when its supposed to take place 50 years after the next generation.  THAT is going against lore.  When you invent the lore in the first place though, lore is whatever you say it is, when you say it is.  Theres nothing from that storyline before you that you really need to adhere to.  Some of you wont understand that.  But someone needed to clarify that in here.

 Can not agree more, it was insane when players attacked Blizzard over what the players felt was a betrayal of the Lore of World of Warcraft, even more so with Rift

Sorrow, I tend to agree with your posts but disagree with this one.  And while technically the notion of 'its your lore, you can do anything you want with it' is true, there is a point where you can do something that makes no sense and creates a gigantic inconsistency with the lore.  For instance if Thrall went on a murderous spree and wiped out every being in orgrimmar just because he was bored one day it would shit on everything his character has been based off.  While not as extreme, the notion of two bitter enemies walking into a different reality and not caring that they were enemies any more is pretty damn silly.  Maybnot lore breaking, but *very* lazy.

Also saying Trion is desperate is hating for the sake of hating.  Which a lot of american's seem to love to do.  I'd say its more of a national pasttime than baseball is.  It's how so many people I come across battle through insecurity to "look cool".  By trashing something, or someone else.

 Again totally agree, Trion by any industry standard is the most successful IP since WoW, and is doing everything right.

Not sure why you are saying IP here and then saying WoW, guessing you mean just the game in general.  Without actual sub numbers, I am going to say LOTRO was probably more successful.  SWTOR was certainly more successful initially, and we will see where they stand after a year.  EvE is also certainly more successful, though technically they were released before WoW but didnt grow until well after WoW.  Rift lost a *TON* of customers their first year, and with no expansion likely in 2013 Im doubtful 2013 will be much better, but my crystal bal doesnt know for sure.

And saying Trion is desperate isn't hating.  Its reality.  The game isnt in danger of shutting down, but its in danger of becoming irrelevant.  GW2 and MoP are coming out in the somewhat near future, and at a time where Rifts activity is going down, not up.  They are clearly adding things both of these games are doing instead of solidfying an aspect of Rift.

In reality, Trion is only doing what they've done for months and months since this game launched.  They listened to the players, listened to what they wanted, and then they gave it to them.  There's really no other company out there doing that. 

Not 100% accurate, they have gone against player wishes a few times, but managed to bring players around to the decisions they made and the reason they made them.

Im pretty sure that trapping critters like Pokemon wasnt really a player requested feature (in WoW, players have long asked for their mini pets to be used for something other than show which is how their pokemon game came about).

Alternate leveling paths (bigger word size in general) and player housing have been two very big requests though, and those have been mostly ignored.

Maybe its just me, but I would want to focus on what I do better than my competitors, or add things they DONT have instead of trying to do what they will do but not do it as well.

 

 

Three faction open world PvP? Yes, sounds good.

Factions not tied to server, but rather a new faction choice that players will make? Recipe for disaster.

Really seems like they are trying to combine GW2 WvWvW and TSW's 3 Player Factions into a new hybrid game mode for Rift.

Like I said, the basic concept is welcome, but the way they are doing it? Recipe for Disaster.

Originally posted by dead2soon

I think they are wise to do this. Adding a third faction at this point would casue a whole slew of problems. This is probably the cleanest way to implement this kind of system at this point in the games life.

 

But why add it now?  As i said in a prior post, why not instead focus on what GW2 is NOT doing, or what you think you can do better than it.  Rift is trying to appeal to everyone, and as a result all segments are suffering a bit now.  

I think they could have saved 3 faction PvP for the expansion where they could introduce a new faction, or even take a page from LOTRO and have a player controlled planar faction so Defiant vs Guardian vs Invader (which DOES make a ton of sense in Rift's world)

This game had some of the best player customization from a looks and fighting style standpoint of any MMO on the market.  The problem with it, is that everything else is bad.  If you like PvP, this is NOT the game for you.  PvP has and always will be, an afterthought in RIFT. 

I enjoyed it up until level 50 when I was hit with the harsh reality of basically starting all over again.  Instead of getting to finally duke it out on level terms and see who the best player is, I was thrust into another endless gear grind.  OK, maybe it isn't gear, maybe its called "prestige", but its the same damn thing.  100Prestige gain!  Only 45,000 more to go until level 2!. 

What is the point of that?  Pvp is supposed to be competitve. How is gear grinding and monotonously poking at buttons on a keyboard for three months until my prestige grows in the spirit of competition?  Why is dungeon gear (weapons I mean) still 10x better than PvP stuff?  Its awful.

For as much fun as I had destroying people all the way up to lvl50 with a character that looked and played exactly how I wanted... all the fun completely drained when I wached myself destroy some guy with 10 hits while he struggled to face me, then with one chop, I die... not because he skilled pointed his guy well, nOPE.  Because he sat in front of his computer all day while I was at work and played the same horrible WFs over and over again.

PvP shoudl be about skill customization, character customization, equal amount of stats and points attributed how YOU want, then play for keeps on equal terms.  The gear grind was completely unneccesary.  If Trion said they removed prestige and the raging gear disparity, I would come back and re-sub.  But, that will never happen, because RIFT is a PvE game.  No matter what over-hyped sales job they pull on you, it will always be a PvE game.

Sad, because I had one of my favorite and most personalized game characters of all time.

Nice job on their part, you have to adapt to the gaming enviroment. GW2 may have bring back an old formula, but if it's what people love I don't see a problem using it. 

I don't play the game, but I tink is a good idea for the game. Trying to hate for reasons like "it's a ripoff" is ludicrous. It's like saying the bicycle is a ripoff the wheel, a motorcycle a ripoff of the bicycle, even a car a ripoff a motorcycle, why not?. All shitty things, stick to the wheel! even when you can't even do anything with just a wheel!

Originally posted by Puremallace

Originally posted by jmcdermottuk

It sounds like a GW2 ripoff, or more preceisely a DAoC ripoff. Not that this is a bad thing, but they should have designed the game with 3 factions from the start. Or planned the 3 server conflicts from the start, like GW2.

 

It looks like an attempt to keep hold of players they know are planning on leaving as soon as GW2 releases by trying to provide them with a similar W v W v W setup in Rift. Can't blame them for trying.

Blizzard had 7 years to figure out how to do what Trion is about to do in a themepark model and even they could not come up with something. People might say it is a rip off, but name another company that released with 2 faction game and then just decided to add another one.

Your obsession with Blizzard continues...

Btw, Blizzard didn't need ot figure out what to do in a themepark model, since they invented the f****** themepark model.  And with over nearly 12 million subs at its peak, they didn't exactly feel the need to scramble to keep their player base like Rift has.  

Sounds to me like Trion is just throwing shit on the wall in the hopes that something sticks.  

Now that its official, grats again to Trion! They are the hardest working devs in the mmo biz. I wouldnt be surprised if they started releasing new rift events that are similar in style to GW2's events. Props for staying ahead of the curve. Its pretty cool seeing a polished little WoW clone change and grow over just a little over a year.

Rift doesn't need more reasons for button-mashing than it already has. I really wish modern mmo devs would start focusing on adding depth and content to games instead of more pew-pew console style  garbage.