Originally posted by DaveBelcher

OK, so this is getting a bit out of hand.

First of all, while Romtim means well, and is passing in information he feels is correct, he does not speak with any authority. For official information, it is best to ask on our official site, to be answered by an actual developer.

 

But, to try and bring this discussion back on track, I will do what I can with your questions. I cannot answer all of them, as there are many systems we have not yet released information on. This is for a number of reasons which, as you seem to be an intelligent person, I am sure you can understand.

 

How does the skill-based combat work? -  We haven't released any information on this at this time. The broad "feel" of it though is, first person, you swing/shoot where you aim, and you can block/parry (and potentially evade) attacks.

Are we talking about aiming here? - Yes, although there may be some exceptions where you wont be "aiming" as such (some forms of magic for example).

Are there hitboxes? - I cannot answer this at this time (we have a few designs which require extensive testing before we determine the best approach).

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem. - While he mentioned these games as influences, that was sheer guesswork. We have never stated specific games as the influence for our combat system. Indeed, in some ways it is wholely different to all, except in some cases in the "feel" of the system.

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO? - Assuming this is related to the skill system. Again, I cannot give an answer in great depth here, as we have not released that system yet. It will be unlike both MO and DFO however. MO has a fixed skill point pool, which caps the maximum spend on skills. DFO has no caps, so anyone can macro to great power. Our system is entirely different, which you could refer to as a soft-cap with skill decay and deminishing returns... but that also wouldn't really fully describe the system. We are very happy with this system however, and I apologise we can't give you more at this time.

How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks? - Again, we haven't divulged the details of this system yet, and dont intend to right now. The high level is, you gain skills by using those skills. There is also a split between "Skill" (or Proficiency) and "Knowledge".

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about? - Again, we haven't released specifics on this system yet, but death will hurt.

Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"? - There are no PvP "Zones", and no flags. You are always "lootable".

Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)? - Yes, it is. You will not have access to a lot of facilities, due to being an "outlaw" (and therefore prohibited from entering towns you are outlawed from). The system is based on a factions. Every controlled territory, association, and indeed individual forms their own "faction", which dictates how you feel about them, and how they feel about you (quite like the EvE system). This is then tied into the Law and Politics systems, so breaking laws in a territory causes you to lose faction with that territory, with the amount depending on the severity of the offence, ultimately leading to you being "outlawed" in that area. When you consider with the size of the world, the next town may be a few hours away, that does limit your options somewhat! Also, with the size of the world, it should be quite easy to escape into the wilds and establish your own hidden safe haven should you so wish.

How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink? - Death wont be fun, sorry. It is intentionally painful (while still trying to be reasonable enough to make it not gamebreaking). We want to foster a true fear of death, as it factors into many things, like how people approach fights. How much death hurts is the difference between an army throwing itself at the walls in a seige, and performing a tactical battle. By "hurting" I dont necessarily mean a pure "time sink", it should be much more interesting than that.

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy? - First of all, the size of the world. In a game 44,000 sq km, where one continent is 3,800 sq km, not all resources are going to be in one spot. A force may be able to hoard resources in one area, but fair play to them. Thats their way of exerting control/pressure on that area, or getting good profits. Its up to others to either take those resources from them, barter for those resources (find something the hoarders need, and trade on a more even footing), or search elsewhere for that resource. The world is WAY too big to hoard all of the resources, or monopolise the game, especially when you consider resources are spread over four continents.

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns?  - This is obvoiusly critical to the gameplay, which was another consideration with the size of the world. A larger world promotes localised economies, and meaningful trade. Access to resources, and the skill to create items, will factor heavily into the availability of product. Also, with things being lootable, and with natural damage/wear on items, there will be a need to replace items as they get older. There is a LOT more to this, and we do have economic experts on the team who are hot on this topic. It isn't just totally freeform, there are many systems designed just to support the economy.

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else? - The size of the world (a player can only dominate the economy in one spot). The full loot-open pvp (if someone gets out of hand, tehy will get lynched). The faction systems (people abusing the economy will likely get thrown out). But, all that being said, creative and sneaky playing of the economic game is perfectly valid. We do have some economic systems planned to stop it getting too crazy however.

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation? - I can't talk about everything we have planned here, but there will be plenty of monitoring, and we will have a dedicated team who's job is to both monitor the health of the world, as well as make it feel alive (the DET).

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct? - I can't talk deeply about this, but in short, yes to regulations on conduct (they can set laws), and for economical restrictions, yes but I can't go into detail.

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production? - Who mentioned mass-production? Everything will have a purpose, even if that purpose is just Fluff (we all know players love their Fluff). Outside that, I dont understand what you are getting at with that question.

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive? - Romtim was actually correct on this one. The player will have an option to craft using the more interactive manual method, or the automated "hit craft" style method (although more detailed than that). The manual method will always create far superior results. We haven't released any information on the manual crafting systems, but it will be a form of mini-game, yes.

Will there be assemblage? - Assuming I understand your meaning by "Assemblage", yes. There will be numerous steps in the crafting cycle, from refining the materials, to creating the components (blade, hilt etc) to assembly of those components.

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns? - Why would it?

Jack of all trades - master of none effect? - Yes, although still I can't discuss the system. But if you try to maintain too many different skills, you will not excell at any of them. If you focus on a few skills, particularly related skills, you can master those skills.

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization? - Viable? Yes, But nowhere near as good. If you want to be the best, you need to specialise. But, there are deminishing returns, so a 100% specialist will only be a bit better than an 80% specialist, and both will be increasingly more skilled than a 60% specialist. Why would we give incentives not to specialise? The only incentive is diversity, and being able to handle multiple situations, as it is a single character per account game.

 

Also, to correct your other post. The Creative Director is a long time Gamer, yes, and he has blacksmith training. He is also a Writer and is an excellent game designer. We actually have a full design team, just so you know. I'm the Technical Director, and no im not a systems engineer. I am a Software Engineer, IT Security consultant and researcher, and also a long time gamer. I am fully aware what works or does not work in games, and I have the knowledge to not only design systems, but to engineer those systems, and understand the technical feasibility of those systems. And, of course the Art Director does Art. That is just a silly statement. He also works hard to ensure the artistic direction of the project stays on track, and fits the world we are creating.

We have a large team, all mature professionals, all with a lot of specific skills, and life experience. Do not underestimate our team :)

 

Anyway, its getting late, and I am a busy guy. I hope that clarified a few things.

 

First of all thank you for answering the questions, I didn't want to come over as overly critical but given the guessformation of RomTim I was getting plenty frustrated with not getting actual answers (i simply believed he was a long time fan and somehow connected to the team since he presented himself knowledgable about it).

Second I obviously didn't want to underestimate or ad-hom your team with my comments, they were merely observations from my point of view and the available information (at that time, and some of them wrong).

If I might suggest, this exchange strikes me as important information anyone interested in the game will want to know, so you should consider posting it on the Kickstarter/Website/Forum.

The kickstarter-video in particular had little to no substance of information on the game itself and provided a very poor motivation to donate/be interested.

The responses you now provided eliviate most (but not all) of my concerns, I am now happy to pledge money for your project and wish you all the best in the creation of your game.

I will be keeping a close look on it for sure.

PS: I'm a 2d/3d design generalist with experience, if you are looking to offload work (for free, if i have time in my schedule), if interested -> PM

I apologize if my comments appear to be negative (I'm not trolling Romtim!), I'm just trying to be realistic about certain aspects of the game. I love sandbox games (to a point), and though I may see several obstacles with regards to EoC, I really do wish you guys all the success in the world! :-)

1. finally! I and prob most of us appreciate a dev from EoC coming here and clarafying what was going on with Romtim. Thank you DaveBelcher.

2. Any chance you'll have a 3rd person gamplay option available? Unfortuantely I do not like 1st person gameplay enough to make it a deal breaker for me.

3. Always lootable? Though prob a cool concept I don't think it will work in a game... end up having gangfests and severe camping.

4. Though I understand the concept of factions, what is to stop a ganking majority from making ganking-friendly laws? Of course, the same could be said of the opposite. Thing is, most people who play always-lootable, always-ganking games are people who like to gank... not my kind of crowd.

5. making players afraid of drying in the game will diminish adventure and exploration. I'm not saying have no consequences for death, but there should be a happy middle. This goes back to making a game too realistic, people aren't going to want to play it.

1: There are actually quite a few of us watching this thread as well as several others, Dave just happened to be available at the time to try to straighten the mess out. It's a busy week for us. :)
While RomTim is in no way associated to Forsaken Studios, we still offer our sincerest apologies for any problems, or confusion his posts may have caused, whether intentional or not. He is a new member of our community, and has perhaps not yet caught the spirit of our community which has thus far proven to be extremely helpful, mature, and friendly to any and all who come asking questions.

2: Unfortunately, a 3rd person camera of any kind simply is not possible, as it would destroy a lot of the planned features, as well as present balancing issues. This question has come up many times in forums, PMs, emails, and even in our IRC channel. We have considered all possibilities, the pros and cons, as well as the consequences of all options and made the decision that we must remain with a first person view, only. While we completely understand that some players do not like or prefer this view, we ask that those players be understanding of the fact that it is quite literally impossible to create a game, (or anything for that matter) that every single individual is happy with. Instead we are chosing to remain focused on the FPV view and ensure that it is the best that it can possibly be, while adding things like ways to see your character while wearing new armor/gear to address the concerns that we can. Unfortunately, some of the concerns are just not possible for us to address without changing the view.

3: When Dave spoke of always being lootable, what he was saying is that no where in EoC is intended to be 100% safe. Just as in EvE players can be attacked in 'safe' areas of high-security space, so to can characters in Embers of Caerus be attacked anywhere in our world. There are of course consequences, some of which are extremely heavy, which will act as deterrents, especially in areas that are meant to be relatively safe, particularly for starter areas.

4: If a ganker-friendly group wants to try to make a faction and establish their laws in a particular area, it's a good bet that other players will be well aware of these laws, and know to either expect a fight when in those areas, or avoid them entirely. When considering how large the world of Caerus is, and taking into account the logistics that are required for daily living, let alone city management, war, etc, it becomes obvious that the entire wolrd will not be ruled by a single group - though they may well dominate a sizeable area. This is in essence, no different than a large alliance or coalition controlling a large section of Null-Sec space in EvE. Those who are not friendly with that alliance or coalition know to steer clear. Common sense is a powerful tool, and we strongly recommend that players use it. :)

Also keep in mind, while there are possibilities of groups creating areas that are hostile, there are equal chances for groups to make neutral or 'safe' areas for other players.

5: There are always two sides to every coin. Keep in mind that if death hurts, it also hurts the gankers if they're foiled. That means that it takes them that much longer to gear back up, and hunt you down again. It also means there are severe consequences for them to consider when choosing to become an outlaw.

One of the largest issues I have seen, personally, in other games with open pvp is that people could often die, respawn, run back to town grab another set of gear and get right back into the fight. This eliminates any kind of use of real tactics, and heavily favors those with larger numbers and more resources.

I know of a paricular case where, in one game which I won't mention the name of, where a small group of 4-5 guys assaulted a town, and killed dozens of players. Except they weren't unique players, they were the same 7-8 guys coming back out with more gear, and no ill effect from death, effectively making it impossible for the attacking force to gain the upper hand simply because the defenders happened to be close to a respawn point and their guilds storage area. In the end the attackers had to break and leave despite the fact that they were clearly the victors. This is clearly not a balanced system, and it's things like that which we aim to resolve with better designed and balanced systems.

Again, remember, death may hurt you, but it hurts the other guy too, and it also means if you're smart, careful, and a little lucky, you can end up making off with some great spoils of war, and making sure those pesky attackers don't come back and try again any time soon.

Excellent questions, valid concerns, and very maturely presented despite the problems in this thread. Thank you.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Its just a general feeling i got from the kickstarter and the little info of what i read on their forum and website

In the kickstarter-video the developer says nothing about the game. Nothing at all.

Except that its a sandbox where they want to provide tools for you to play with.

There is no information to what exactly im pledging here beyond a feature list. I can't assess what kind of game this is/will/should be.

 

I'm not asking for detailed descriptions of game-mechanics that could be stolen, im just wondering how this game looks in the developers head (or a fans head for that matter).

The feature list isn't what makes the game.

 ---

The video itself has some size/length limitations that needed kept in mind, so we had to tailor it to the kickstarter itself and less the game.  Thats why we have all the added text underneath, although again geared towards the kickstarter.  Most any other information is available on the website, from the links at the bottom.

But, being as we're still early in development, we're also still releasing information (and working on it) and gathering up information to into one section, such as the FAQ that we're currently working on.

Although it's not my position to fill in the blanks like Dave did above, I try and help out with some of the more general things when I can. But you do bring up a good point about the bigger picture other than some genre tag lines and features list.

I didn't see it on the Kickstarter page, and maybe it should have been.  So.. hopefully this helps:  http://www.embersofcaerus.com/content.php/237-The-Vision

This is from the Creative Director, and pretty much is what he's after, which I believe is what you're referring to.

SWG creature handler type proffession?

Originally posted by RSteele

I apologize if my comments appear to be negative (I'm not trolling Romtim!), I'm just trying to be realistic about certain aspects of the game. I love sandbox games (to a point), and though I may see several obstacles with regards to EoC, I really do wish you guys all the success in the world! :-)

1. finally! I and prob most of us appreciate a dev from EoC coming here and clarafying what was going on with Romtim. Thank you DaveBelcher.

2. Any chance you'll have a 3rd person gamplay option available? Unfortuantely I do not like 1st person gameplay enough to make it a deal breaker for me.

3. Always lootable? Though prob a cool concept I don't think it will work in a game... end up having gangfests and severe camping.

4. Though I understand the concept of factions, what is to stop a ganking majority from making ganking-friendly laws? Of course, the same could be said of the opposite. Thing is, most people who play always-lootable, always-ganking games are people who like to gank... not my kind of crowd.

5. making players afraid of drying in the game will diminish adventure and exploration. I'm not saying have no consequences for death, but there should be a happy middle. This goes back to making a game too realistic, people aren't going to want to play it.

1: There are actually quite a few of us watching this thread as well as several others, Dave just happened to be available at the time to try to straighten the mess out. It's a busy week for us. :)
While RomTim is in no way associated to Forsaken Studios, we still offer our sincerest apologies for any problems, or confusion his posts may have caused, whether intentional or not. He is a new member of our community, and has perhaps not yet caught the spirit of our community which has thus far proven to be extremely helpful, mature, and friendly to any and all who come asking questions.

2: Unfortunately, a 3rd person camera of any kind simply is not possible, as it would destroy a lot of the planned features, as well as present balancing issues. This question has come up many times in forums, PMs, emails, and even in our IRC channel. We have considered all possibilities, the pros and cons, as well as the consequences of all options and made the decision that we must remain with a first person view, only. While we completely understand that some players do not like or prefer this view, we ask that those players be understanding of the fact that it is quite literally impossible to create a game, (or anything for that matter) that every single individual is happy with. Instead we are chosing to remain focused on the FPV view and ensure that it is the best that it can possibly be, while adding things like ways to see your character while wearing new armor/gear to address the concerns that we can. Unfortunately, some of the concerns are just not possible for us to address without changing the view.

3: When Dave spoke of always being lootable, what he was saying is that no where in EoC is intended to be 100% safe. Just as in EvE players can be attacked in 'safe' areas of high-security space, so to can characters in Embers of Caerus be attacked anywhere in our world. There are of course consequences, some of which are extremely heavy, which will act as deterrents, especially in areas that are meant to be relatively safe, particularly for starter areas.

4: If a ganker-friendly group wants to try to make a faction and establish their laws in a particular area, it's a good bet that other players will be well aware of these laws, and know to either expect a fight when in those areas, or avoid them entirely. When considering how large the world of Caerus is, and taking into account the logistics that are required for daily living, let alone city management, war, etc, it becomes obvious that the entire wolrd will not be ruled by a single group - though they may well dominate a sizeable area. This is in essence, no different than a large alliance or coalition controlling a large section of Null-Sec space in EvE. Those who are not friendly with that alliance or coalition know to steer clear. Common sense is a powerful tool, and we strongly recommend that players use it. :)

Also keep in mind, while there are possibilities of groups creating areas that are hostile, there are equal chances for groups to make neutral or 'safe' areas for other players.

5: There are always two sides to every coin. Keep in mind that if death hurts, it also hurts the gankers if they're foiled. That means that it takes them that much longer to gear back up, and hunt you down again. It also means there are severe consequences for them to consider when choosing to become an outlaw.

One of the largest issues I have seen, personally, in other games with open pvp is that people could often die, respawn, run back to town grab another set of gear and get right back into the fight. This eliminates any kind of use of real tactics, and heavily favors those with larger numbers and more resources.

I know of a paricular case where, in one game which I won't mention the name of, where a small group of 4-5 guys assaulted a town, and killed dozens of players. Except they weren't unique players, they were the same 7-8 guys coming back out with more gear, and no ill effect from death, effectively making it impossible for the attacking force to gain the upper hand simply because the defenders happened to be close to a respawn point and their guilds storage area. In the end the attackers had to break and leave despite the fact that they were clearly the victors. This is clearly not a balanced system, and it's things like that which we aim to resolve with better designed and balanced systems.

Again, remember, death may hurt you, but it hurts the other guy too, and it also means if you're smart, careful, and a little lucky, you can end up making off with some great spoils of war, and making sure those pesky attackers don't come back and try again any time soon.

Excellent questions, valid concerns, and very maturely presented despite the problems in this thread. Thank you.

RSteele and Dave, thank you so much for your in-depth and prompt correspondance. I really do appreciate the time you guys took to answer our multiple questions and concerns. I have to admit that you guys now have me quite interested and intrigued in EoC. Though the locked-in 1st person gameplay is still a sticking point for me, you guys have successfully removed most of my concerns regarding my other questions. I am actually looking forward to seeing EoC develop throughout the years until release. Though I may not be at the point where I'm ready and/or willing to support you guys financially, I will be keeping a close eye. If I like what I see in the coming months I will most likely begin to help out in any way I can, including and especially with donations/investments. I'll be visiting your website quite often to see the growth and development of EoC.

Good luck!! :-)

Thank you joocheese, and its no problem. We are likewise sorry for the confusion earler.

We will certainly welcome you along for the ride!

Cheers,

Dave