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Embers of Caerus

Embers of Caerus 

General Discussion  » Embers of Caerus - QA thread

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  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  5/23/12 11:30:27 AM#1

Due to the other thread being locked for some reason here are the answers for my questions i posted in it, supplied over PM.

I think its good to have a discussion about it here to see what lurks behind the concept of EoC.

 

My list of questions from the other other thread (green):

 


1 - Player skill-driven combat

"Make the difference in battle with your personal abilities, not a character level, character age, or a set of magic items you spent 2 weeks grinding dungeons for!"

How does the skill-based combat work?

Are we talking about aiming here?

Are there hitboxes?

How does the combat look PVE vs PVP (i.e. does it involve continuous circlestrafing? bunny hopping?)

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem.




2 -Level-less, classless character advancement

"Play and advance your character how you want instead of adhering to preset roles and restrictions! There are no limits like in mortal online, which required creating other characters for gathering, and no such difference in power like in darkfall between veterans and new players. "

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO?

How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks?

This is contradicting, or at least very hard to swallow without an explenation on how this can work.

Either your skill-advancment influences something and has no limit in the advancment creating a more powerful character, or the skill-advancment doesn't matter at all and creates no power difference.

This is inconsistent.




3 - Full loot, open PvP combat
"Fight for your own reasons, not just because a storyline tells you your character must hate the other guys, but beware the consequences. Whatever you fight for, don't forget to loot the spoils of war!"

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about?

Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"?

Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)?




4 - Death Hurts
"In EoC death hurts, badly. Not only do you drop your gear, but your character has to recover from their wounds before they will be much help to anyone - assuming their body survives their death at all!"

How will you mitigate the death-penalty and the setbacks this creates for new players (especially in a FFAPVP setting)?

How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink?




5 - Rich player-controlled market and economy


"Nearly every item is either created or supplied by players. Invest in resources, goods, or the businesses themselves, become a rich tycoon, or just strive to crash the market of your competitor to make them an easier target for the local bandits. Yes, there will be local banks and uneven distribution of resources = caravans + caravans over the sea = piracy. (And since it will take hours to sail between continents... A pretty nice picture, huh? :) )."

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy?

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns?

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else?

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation?

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct?




6 - Extensive crafting systems


"Gather and refine raw resources into usable goods. Create each piece individually with exceptional care that brings in extreme prices, or manage your own workshop that mass produces high-demand goods. Whatever niche you choose, rest assured each and every piece you create has a purpose, and someone out there needs it! There are many different resulting items, and each of them is being handchecked for usefullness."

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production?

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive?

Will there be assemblage?

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns?




7 - Dozens of professions

"Decide whether to specialize in a single profession or instead spread your efforts across many, ranging from crafting, farming, gathering, alchemy, engineering, and many more!"

Jack of all trades - master of none effect?

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization?

How does the game handle players that played longer with more skills and higher level skills? This ties in with my no-lvl no-class question nr. 2

Those are essentially my basic questions that shape the game and everything else will flow from them.

 

Answers by "romtim" (red):


How does the skill-based combat work? - You control your character's hits from First person view with your mouse.

Are we talking about aiming here? - Yes, and not only that.

Are there hitboxes? - Yes.

How does the combat look PVE vs PVP (i.e. does it involve continuous circlestrafing? bunny hopping?) - No bunny hopping. No idea on circlestrafing, but should not be it, due to the stamina mechanics.

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem. - Something from that, something from that.

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO? - No idea, but it can be for example skills degrading over time if you do not use them.

How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks? - Usage of the skill is a factor.

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about? - Having to recover your power after death as an example.

Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"? - No idea.

Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)? - As far as I undertand, the system will favor player control of the situation. No insta slaying guards at least. You can set guards to roam your territories however, but there are no safezones. No point in killing lowbies, and retribution coming from powerfull players. Just a few guesses.

How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink? - Who said death will be fun? I think it should be a thrill to fight for surviving, having your heart beat.

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy? - Politics.

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns? - No idea.

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else? - No idea.

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation? - No idea.

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct? - I think so.

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production? - Yes, handpicked.

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive? - Both.

Will there be assemblage? - No idea, guess so.

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns? - No idea.

Jack of all trades - master of none effect? - No idea.

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization? - No idea.

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  5/23/12 11:49:54 AM#2
Originally posted by AdamTM

Answers by "romtim" (red):


How does the skill-based combat work? - You control your character's hits from First person view with your mouse.

Are we talking about aiming here? - Yes, and not only that.

Are there hitboxes? - Yes.

How does the combat look PVE vs PVP (i.e. does it involve continuous circlestrafing? bunny hopping?) - No bunny hopping. No idea on circlestrafing, but should not be it, due to the stamina mechanics.

Can i safely assume that the combat will look like War Of The Roses?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnNrHdihGSY

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem. - Something from that, something from that.

This is a non-answer, what kind of "things"? The damage model from MnB? The combos from Skyrim? What?

I don't need a detailed description just a general one:

"The combat is action based with a stamina bar, you need to hit an opponent three times unblocked and he falls over, there is no combat-healing"

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO? - No idea, but it can be for example skills degrading over time if you do not use them.


How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks? - Usage of the skill is a factor.

So will we need to run against a wall for 3 hours to level our acrobatics?

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about? - Having to recover your power after death as an example.

Again a non-answer, yes of course we will need to recover our power after "death", but -how-?

Sleeping in a hut for 24 hours? Eating lots of master-craft food? Magic? Potions? Praying?

Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"? - No idea.

Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)? - As far as I undertand, the system will favor player control of the situation. No insta slaying guards at least. You can set guards to roam your territories however, but there are no safezones. No point in killing lowbies, and retribution coming from powerfull players. Just a few guesses.

"'No point in killing lowbies" does not exist in a FFAPVP scenario. It doesnt stop The Dumpster in EVE either.

The concept of FFAPVP attracts players that just want to harass (DFO, EVE)

How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink? - Who said death will be fun? I think it should be a thrill to fight for surviving, having your heart beat.

Anything that is not fun in a game is uncessary. Death must be part of the fun (and not the masochistic kind of fun).

Death as simple padding is an guaranteed uninstall from most players. Even the ones that like challenging gameplay and permadeath.

Players hate failure conditions (game over) but are ok with consequences.

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy? - Politics.

Through game-features i suppose?

Or are you just talking about propping up an army and going to beat the shit out of the wealthy player?

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns? - No idea.

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else? - No idea.

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation? - No idea.

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct? - I think so.

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production? - Yes, handpicked.

I don't understand "handpicked". What does that mean?

Also "Yes" isnt an answer to my question which was not a yes-no question.

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive? - Both.

How is it interactive? Do i get to play a minigame of smithing a sword? Sharpening an knife?

Will there be assemblage? - No idea, guess so.

Assemblage means if there will be parts that can be interactively put together (hilt, blade, etc.) instead of clicking "craft +1 Sword" and watching a progress bar.

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns? - No idea.

Jack of all trades - master of none effect? - No idea.

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization? - No idea.

My followup questions.

  Romtim

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 182

5/23/12 12:42:47 PM#3
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by AdamTM

Answers by "romtim" (red):


How does the skill-based combat work? - You control your character's hits from First person view with your mouse.

Are we talking about aiming here? - Yes, and not only that.

Are there hitboxes? - Yes.

How does the combat look PVE vs PVP (i.e. does it involve continuous circlestrafing? bunny hopping?) - No bunny hopping. No idea on circlestrafing, but should not be it, due to the stamina mechanics.

Can i safely assume that the combat will look like War Of The Roses? - Not, since its not 3rd person view.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnNrHdihGSY

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem. - Something from that, something from that.

This is a non-answer, what kind of "things"? The damage model from MnB? The combos from Skyrim? What? - Well they did not release the mechanics, but they told what influences.

I don't need a detailed description just a general one:

"The combat is action based with a stamina bar, you need to hit an opponent three times unblocked and he falls over, there is no combat-healing"

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO? - No idea, but it can be for example skills degrading over time if you do not use them.


How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks? - Usage of the skill is a factor.

So will we need to run against a wall for 3 hours to level our acrobatics? - If you give this TROLLISH example, then how do you gain experience at acrobatics, or how do you passively train acrobatics? 

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about? - Having to recover your power after death as an example.

Again a non-answer, yes of course we will need to recover our power after "death", but -how-?

Sleeping in a hut for 24 hours? Eating lots of master-craft food? Magic? Potions? Praying? - Maybe, no idea. And no, there is no mastercraft food, more like - eating food and drinking water to keep urself alive and running.

Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"? - No idea.

Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)? - As far as I undertand, the system will favor player control of the situation. No insta slaying guards at least. You can set guards to roam your territories however, but there are no safezones. No point in killing lowbies, and retribution coming from powerfull players. Just a few guesses.

"'No point in killing lowbies" does not exist in a FFAPVP scenario. It doesnt stop The Dumpster in EVE either.

The concept of FFAPVP attracts players that just want to harass (DFO, EVE) 

How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink? - Who said death will be fun? I think it should be a thrill to fight for surviving, having your heart beat.

Anything that is not fun in a game is uncessary. Death must be part of the fun (and not the masochistic kind of fun). - This is not a themepark. It is a game with lots of fun, but realistic.

Death as simple padding is an guaranteed uninstall from most players. Even the ones that like challenging gameplay and permadeath. - There is no permadeath, and yes, I think the devs can not suit everyone, but still they welcome any suggestions on the official forums.

Players hate failure conditions (game over) but are ok with consequences.

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy? - Politics.

Through game-features i suppose?

Or are you just talking about propping up an army and going to beat the shit out of the wealthy player? - There are ingame tools to manage politics - such as trades, pacts, etc.

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns? - No idea.

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else? - No idea.

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation? - No idea.

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct? - I think so.

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production? - Yes, handpicked.

I don't understand "handpicked". What does that mean? - Means that I've read somewhere, that the developers handpick (go manually) through all the items, to ensure that they are usefull. 

Also "Yes" isnt an answer to my question which was not a yes-no question.

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive? - Both.

How is it interactive? Do i get to play a minigame of smithing a sword? Sharpening an knife? - There are no such details, either the game would not be 3 years until release.

Will there be assemblage? - No idea, guess so.

Assemblage means if there will be parts that can be interactively put together (hilt, blade, etc.) instead of clicking "craft +1 Sword" and watching a progress bar. - Yes, I understood that, the description of crafting hints that this is the case, but I am not sure. Not keen on crafting.

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns? - No idea.

Jack of all trades - master of none effect? - No idea.

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization? - No idea.

My followup questions.

My followup answers. AND AGAIN, IM NOT A DEVELOPER! since people may take me for one.

  User Deleted
5/23/12 1:19:27 PM#4
Originally posted by AdamTM

Due to the other thread being locked for some reason here are the answers for my questions i posted in it, supplied over PM.

I think its good to have a discussion about it here to see what lurks behind the concept of EoC.

I'm not sure also exactly why it was locked, probably because Romtim was advertising and asking for money; don't think you can do that here on the forums. I will say though, I did not appreciate one bit his demeener when asnwering people's skepticism over EoC; he would simply say that no one cares about their opinions here and that they should go to EoC's forums to comment (another reason prob why it was locked).
 
When I responded to his post telling him that he should probably not say that if he wants people here to donate to EoC and how EoC lost me because they would force their players into 1st person gameplay, he merely just scoffed at me and said that I was just reading what I wanted (not really sure what he meant lol). Not sure what his deal is... oh well, I'm over it lol.
 
As to EoC, most things look pretty cool actually, but... having said, for a game which advertises itself as a true sandbox complete freedom game, its dissapointing they don't have the option for both 1st person and 3rd person gameplay. In regards to everything else, I think EoC should work on what is realistically possible and then go from there. I think they're tackling too many things at once. If you try to do too many things you'll just end up with one big mess; I encourage EoC to start with a few things, get them down, polished, and perfect, and then move on to other things (so on and so forth).
  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  5/23/12 2:06:30 PM#5
Originally posted by Romtim
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by AdamTM

Answers by "romtim" (red):


How does the skill-based combat work? - You control your character's hits from First person view with your mouse.

Are we talking about aiming here? - Yes, and not only that.

Are there hitboxes? - Yes.

How does the combat look PVE vs PVP (i.e. does it involve continuous circlestrafing? bunny hopping?) - No bunny hopping. No idea on circlestrafing, but should not be it, due to the stamina mechanics.

Can i safely assume that the combat will look like War Of The Roses? - Not, since its not 3rd person view.

Not the visuals, the -COMBAT- the perspective has 0 impact on the mechanics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnNrHdihGSY

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem. - Something from that, something from that.

This is a non-answer, what kind of "things"? The damage model from MnB? The combos from Skyrim? What? - Well they did not release the mechanics, but they told what influences.

Ok, so "No Idea" is a good enough answer.

I don't need a detailed description just a general one:

"The combat is action based with a stamina bar, you need to hit an opponent three times unblocked and he falls over, there is no combat-healing"

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO? - No idea, but it can be for example skills degrading over time if you do not use them.


How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks? - Usage of the skill is a factor.

So will we need to run against a wall for 3 hours to level our acrobatics? - If you give this TROLLISH example, then how do you gain experience at acrobatics, or how do you passively train acrobatics? 

Im giving a trollish example because you are being evasive with your responses.

I still don't know what "...is a factor" means. Especially since its -A- factor, so what are the other factors?

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about? - Having to recover your power after death as an example.

Again a non-answer, yes of course we will need to recover our power after "death", but -how-?

Sleeping in a hut for 24 hours? Eating lots of master-craft food? Magic? Potions? Praying? - Maybe, no idea. And no, there is no mastercraft food, more like - eating food and drinking water to keep urself alive and running.

Ok so no idea

Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"? - No idea.

Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)? - As far as I undertand, the system will favor player control of the situation. No insta slaying guards at least. You can set guards to roam your territories however, but there are no safezones. No point in killing lowbies, and retribution coming from powerfull players. Just a few guesses.

"'No point in killing lowbies" does not exist in a FFAPVP scenario. It doesnt stop The Dumpster in EVE either.

The concept of FFAPVP attracts players that just want to harass (DFO, EVE) 

How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink? - Who said death will be fun? I think it should be a thrill to fight for surviving, having your heart beat.

Anything that is not fun in a game is uncessary. Death must be part of the fun (and not the masochistic kind of fun). - This is not a themepark. It is a game with lots of fun, but realistic.

Realistic or not i don't care if its fun.

If realistic means long stretches of time to recover from illness/death/loss of property or grinding your - its not fun, because fun comes from achieving things, learning etc. Doing nothing is not fun.

How you can say its lots of fun if there isnt even an alpha and you don't know answers to half the questions asked, befuddles me to no end.

Death as simple padding is an guaranteed uninstall from most players. Even the ones that like challenging gameplay and permadeath. - There is no permadeath, and yes, I think the devs can not suit everyone, but still they welcome any suggestions on the official forums.

It doesn't matter if there is no permadeath, because you can have a failure-condition without permadeath, it was an example.

Im not in the business of fixing other peoples games, I'm asking questions that every developer have figured out -before- they start on coding a game.

Players hate failure conditions (game over) but are ok with consequences.

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy? - Politics.

Through game-features i suppose?

Or are you just talking about propping up an army and going to beat the shit out of the wealthy player? - There are ingame tools to manage politics - such as trades, pacts, etc.

Yes, but i mean more than that.

Pacts are written on water, nobody cares, what are the gameplay mechanics of -inforcing- the laws/politics.

Econimical managment through politics would for example mean you could set tax rates for your players, flexible tax tiers, production-quotas and margins (this is standard 4X game territory).

I.e. how do you stop players from over-fishing a lake in EoC?

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns? - No idea.

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else? - No idea.

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation? - No idea.

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct? - I think so.

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production? - Yes, handpicked.

I don't understand "handpicked". What does that mean? - Means that I've read somewhere, that the developers handpick (go manually) through all the items, to ensure that they are usefull. 

Thats ridiculous, with any resonable amount of players this will become impossible to manage.

Additionally this was not what i asked. 

I was asking about supply and demand. How do you make sure that there is always -demand-

If you have mass-production, demand will disappear shortly and the item will devalue.

Also "Yes" isnt an answer to my question which was not a yes-no question.

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive? - Both.

How is it interactive? Do i get to play a minigame of smithing a sword? Sharpening an knife? - There are no such details, either the game would not be 3 years until release.

Those aren't trivial details, they are important questions on how the economy will function.

If you have a skill-based economy where you as a player actually have to -work- on a sword for example (in comparison of clicking and watching a progress-bar) the economy will function differently than with my latter example.

Its all about time and time-investment, it plays a big role in general economics.

Will there be assemblage? - No idea, guess so.

Assemblage means if there will be parts that can be interactively put together (hilt, blade, etc.) instead of clicking "craft +1 Sword" and watching a progress bar. - Yes, I understood that, the description of crafting hints that this is the case, but I am not sure. Not keen on crafting.

Ok, ill take that at face value.

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns? - No idea.

Jack of all trades - master of none effect? - No idea.

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization? - No idea.

My followup questions.

My followup answers. AND AGAIN, IM NOT A DEVELOPER! since people may take me for one.

 

In general it feels like the developer wrote down a bunch of features without connection.

None of the founders/creators has any game-development experience, the Creative Director is a "gamer" and metal-worker, the Founder is a systems-engineer, and the art-director does art.

This isn't to say they -can't- make this work, but I don't see it happening with this complexity and on this scale.

Especially since to create a functioning economy in a game you have to understand economic systems and nobody in this game (again) seems to understand those.

Capitalistic free-market economies dont "fix themselves" they don't run on "automatic". If you are taking free-market models from real life into your game, you are taking all their flaws as well, and you need to have safeguards for these flaws.

Trust me when I say this, "realistic" medieval economy sucked. Nobody wants to live/play -in- (not with) these economic settings, because they suck.

Realism isn't something to strive for, because realism isn't always good.

 

 

To create the game they want it to be, I would highly suggest employing these people as consultants:

- an actual game designer (this game needs it)

- someone with an economics major (for the economy)

- a sociology major (for discovering the expected group-dynamics in the ruleset)

 

The game has too many unknowns in everything, lets hope the developers have the answers but don't want to post them.

Right now it looks like they are putting the cart before the horse.

  RLSekulich

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/08
Posts: 12

5/23/12 4:03:55 PM#6

There are a lot of blanks right now simply because it would be highly unwise to just post, what would essentially be, the entire design documentation.  Many of the concepts could then be taken by other companies.  Ever wonder why so many patents exist? Because there are a lot of greedy people out there, they can and will steal anything they can get their hands on if it's not secured.

As for experience, just because resumes aren't posted, doesn't mean experience doesn't exist.  There are plenty of very experienced individuals on the team. The information given is just an overview, a biographical overview, not a resume.

I'm sure someone else can give you a lot more details and insight, but just because information isn't immediately available, doesn't mean it's non-existent.

  Snoepie

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/18/07
Posts: 490

5/23/12 4:12:44 PM#7
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by Romtim
Originally posted by AdamTM
Originally posted by AdamTM

Answers by "romtim" (red):


How does the skill-based combat work? - You control your character's hits from First person view with your mouse.

Are we talking about aiming here? - Yes, and not only that.

Are there hitboxes? - Yes.

How does the combat look PVE vs PVP (i.e. does it involve continuous circlestrafing? bunny hopping?) - No bunny hopping. No idea on circlestrafing, but should not be it, due to the stamina mechanics.

Can i safely assume that the combat will look like War Of The Roses? - Not, since its not 3rd person view.

Not the visuals, the -COMBAT- the perspective has 0 impact on the mechanics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnNrHdihGSY

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem. - Something from that, something from that.

This is a non-answer, what kind of "things"? The damage model from MnB? The combos from Skyrim? What? - Well they did not release the mechanics, but they told what influences.

Ok, so "No Idea" is a good enough answer.

I don't need a detailed description just a general one:

"The combat is action based with a stamina bar, you need to hit an opponent three times unblocked and he falls over, there is no combat-healing"

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO? - No idea, but it can be for example skills degrading over time if you do not use them.


How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks? - Usage of the skill is a factor.

So will we need to run against a wall for 3 hours to level our acrobatics? - If you give this TROLLISH example, then how do you gain experience at acrobatics, or how do you passively train acrobatics? 

Im giving a trollish example because you are being evasive with your responses.

I still don't know what "...is a factor" means. Especially since its -A- factor, so what are the other factors?

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about? - Having to recover your power after death as an example.

Again a non-answer, yes of course we will need to recover our power after "death", but -how-?

Sleeping in a hut for 24 hours? Eating lots of master-craft food? Magic? Potions? Praying? - Maybe, no idea. And no, there is no mastercraft food, more like - eating food and drinking water to keep urself alive and running.

Ok so no idea

Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"? - No idea.

Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)? - As far as I undertand, the system will favor player control of the situation. No insta slaying guards at least. You can set guards to roam your territories however, but there are no safezones. No point in killing lowbies, and retribution coming from powerfull players. Just a few guesses.

"'No point in killing lowbies" does not exist in a FFAPVP scenario. It doesnt stop The Dumpster in EVE either.

The concept of FFAPVP attracts players that just want to harass (DFO, EVE) 

How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink? - Who said death will be fun? I think it should be a thrill to fight for surviving, having your heart beat.

Anything that is not fun in a game is uncessary. Death must be part of the fun (and not the masochistic kind of fun). - This is not a themepark. It is a game with lots of fun, but realistic.

Realistic or not i don't care if its fun.

If realistic means long stretches of time to recover from illness/death/loss of property or grinding your - its not fun, because fun comes from achieving things, learning etc. Doing nothing is not fun.

How you can say its lots of fun if there isnt even an alpha and you don't know answers to half the questions asked, befuddles me to no end.

Death as simple padding is an guaranteed uninstall from most players. Even the ones that like challenging gameplay and permadeath. - There is no permadeath, and yes, I think the devs can not suit everyone, but still they welcome any suggestions on the official forums.

It doesn't matter if there is no permadeath, because you can have a failure-condition without permadeath, it was an example.

Im not in the business of fixing other peoples games, I'm asking questions that every developer have figured out -before- they start on coding a game.

Players hate failure conditions (game over) but are ok with consequences.

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy? - Politics.

Through game-features i suppose?

Or are you just talking about propping up an army and going to beat the shit out of the wealthy player? - There are ingame tools to manage politics - such as trades, pacts, etc.

Yes, but i mean more than that.

Pacts are written on water, nobody cares, what are the gameplay mechanics of -inforcing- the laws/politics.

Econimical managment through politics would for example mean you could set tax rates for your players, flexible tax tiers, production-quotas and margins (this is standard 4X game territory).

I.e. how do you stop players from over-fishing a lake in EoC?

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns? - No idea.

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else? - No idea.

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation? - No idea.

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct? - I think so.

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production? - Yes, handpicked.

I don't understand "handpicked". What does that mean? - Means that I've read somewhere, that the developers handpick (go manually) through all the items, to ensure that they are usefull. 

Thats ridiculous, with any resonable amount of players this will become impossible to manage.

Additionally this was not what i asked. 

I was asking about supply and demand. How do you make sure that there is always -demand-

If you have mass-production, demand will disappear shortly and the item will devalue.

Also "Yes" isnt an answer to my question which was not a yes-no question.

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive? - Both.

How is it interactive? Do i get to play a minigame of smithing a sword? Sharpening an knife? - There are no such details, either the game would not be 3 years until release.

Those aren't trivial details, they are important questions on how the economy will function.

If you have a skill-based economy where you as a player actually have to -work- on a sword for example (in comparison of clicking and watching a progress-bar) the economy will function differently than with my latter example.

Its all about time and time-investment, it plays a big role in general economics.

Will there be assemblage? - No idea, guess so.

Assemblage means if there will be parts that can be interactively put together (hilt, blade, etc.) instead of clicking "craft +1 Sword" and watching a progress bar. - Yes, I understood that, the description of crafting hints that this is the case, but I am not sure. Not keen on crafting.

Ok, ill take that at face value.

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns? - No idea.

Jack of all trades - master of none effect? - No idea.

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization? - No idea.

My followup questions.

My followup answers. AND AGAIN, IM NOT A DEVELOPER! since people may take me for one.

 

In general it feels like the developer wrote down a bunch of features without connection.

None of the founders/creators has any game-development experience, the Creative Director is a "gamer" and metal-worker, the Founder is a systems-engineer, and the art-director does art.

This isn't to say they -can't- make this work, but I don't see it happening with this complexity and on this scale.

Especially since to create a functioning economy in a game you have to understand economic systems and nobody in this game (again) seems to understand those.

Capitalistic free-market economies dont "fix themselves" they don't run on "automatic". If you are taking free-market models from real life into your game, you are taking all their flaws as well, and you need to have safeguards for these flaws.

Trust me when I say this, "realistic" medieval economy sucked. Nobody wants to live/play -in- (not with) these economic settings, because they suck.

Realism isn't something to strive for, because realism isn't always good.

 

 

To create the game they want it to be, I would highly suggest employing these people as consultants:

- an actual game designer (this game needs it)

- someone with an economics major (for the economy)

- a sociology major (for discovering the expected group-dynamics in the ruleset)

 

The game has too many unknowns in everything, lets hope the developers have the answers but don't want to post them.

Right now it looks like they are putting the cart before the horse.

he adam.. how do you know all this..???

 

Excatly.. you don't.. this is your speculation..

 

i know for certain that there are couple of people from darkfall and mortal online in this team..

 

So your statements or so called facts are just wrong..

  User Deleted
5/23/12 4:55:02 PM#8
Originally posted by Snoepie
Originally posted by AdamTM

In general it feels like the developer wrote down a bunch of features without connection.

None of the founders/creators has any game-development experience, the Creative Director is a "gamer" and metal-worker, the Founder is a systems-engineer, and the art-director does art.

This isn't to say they -can't- make this work, but I don't see it happening with this complexity and on this scale.

Especially since to create a functioning economy in a game you have to understand economic systems and nobody in this game (again) seems to understand those.

Capitalistic free-market economies dont "fix themselves" they don't run on "automatic". If you are taking free-market models from real life into your game, you are taking all their flaws as well, and you need to have safeguards for these flaws.

Trust me when I say this, "realistic" medieval economy sucked. Nobody wants to live/play -in- (not with) these economic settings, because they suck.

Realism isn't something to strive for, because realism isn't always good.

To create the game they want it to be, I would highly suggest employing these people as consultants:

- an actual game designer (this game needs it)

- someone with an economics major (for the economy)

- a sociology major (for discovering the expected group-dynamics in the ruleset)

The game has too many unknowns in everything, lets hope the developers have the answers but don't want to post them.

Right now it looks like they are putting the cart before the horse.

he adam.. how do you know all this..???

Excatly.. you don't.. this is your speculation..

i know for certain that there are couple of people from darkfall and mortal online in this team..

So your statements or so called facts are just wrong..

What continues to baffle me is that Romtim continues to call anyone who disagrees with him and/or sees any flaw in EoC a troll. Though there are many trolls out there, I am not one of them Romtim! I just simpley see games for what they are... the good, the bad and the ugly (including GW2, the game I'm going to play).

AdamTM has it right, no one wants to play a game that is realistic, we have our own lives for that. People want to play games because they are different from reality.

By the way Adam, how do you know the background of the founders/creators?

Snoepie, how do you know that a couple of people from darkfall and mortal online are on the team? How many, what were their roles in darkfall and mortal online, and what are their roles in EoC? If you demand that AdamTM provide the proof, I'm still waiting for yours ;-)

 

  User Deleted
5/23/12 5:06:57 PM#9
Originally posted by Romtim
Originally posted by joocheese
Originally posted by AdamTM

Due to the other thread being locked for some reason here are the answers for my questions i posted in it, supplied over PM.

I think its good to have a discussion about it here to see what lurks behind the concept of EoC.

I'm not sure also exactly why it was locked, probably because Romtim was advertising and asking for money; don't think you can do that here on the forums. I will say though, I did not appreciate one bit his demeener when asnwering people's skepticism over EoC; he would simply say that no one cares about their opinions here and that they should go to EoC's forums to comment (another reason prob why it was locked).
 
When I responded to his post telling him that he should probably not say that if he wants people here to donate to EoC and how EoC lost me because they would force their players into 1st person gameplay, he merely just scoffed at me and said that I was just reading what I wanted (not really sure what he meant lol). Not sure what his deal is... oh well, I'm over it lol.
 
As to EoC, most things look pretty cool actually, but... having said, for a game which advertises itself as a true sandbox complete freedom game, its dissapointing they don't have the option for both 1st person and 3rd person gameplay. In regards to everything else, I think EoC should work on what is realistically possible and then go from there. I think they're tackling too many things at once. If you try to do too many things you'll just end up with one big mess; I encourage EoC to start with a few things, get them down, polished, and perfect, and then move on to other things (so on and so forth).

[mod edit]

Romtim, just because I disagree with you does not mean I'm a troll. Not everyone who posts on mmorpg.com are trolls, and if you thought it a waste of time, then why do you even bother posting here? My previous post was done from my phone at work, I'm home now and I have more time to type up better structured sentences (forgive my english, its not my first language).

Two major things have turned me off from EoC, locked-in 1st person gameplay and Romtim.

I may very well try to contact one of the devs and see if they're willing to add 3rd person gamplay, but I find it somewhat useless because they're still working on getting the funding in order to build a prototype of their concept. In other words, its waaaay to early (4+ years too early) to talk about realistic aspects of the game, let alone promising things to players who donate money now.

Romtim, I'm not trolling, just being realistic and yes, maybe a bit negative on the fact that I think the EoC devs are chewing way more than they can handle.

  DaveBelcher

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 39

5/23/12 5:07:02 PM#10

OK, so this is getting a bit out of hand.

First of all, while Romtim means well, and is passing in information he feels is correct, he does not speak with any authority. For official information, it is best to ask on our official site, to be answered by an actual developer.

 

But, to try and bring this discussion back on track, I will do what I can with your questions. I cannot answer all of them, as there are many systems we have not yet released information on. This is for a number of reasons which, as you seem to be an intelligent person, I am sure you can understand.

 

How does the skill-based combat work? -  We haven't released any information on this at this time. The broad "feel" of it though is, first person, you swing/shoot where you aim, and you can block/parry (and potentially evade) attacks.

Are we talking about aiming here? - Yes, although there may be some exceptions where you wont be "aiming" as such (some forms of magic for example).

Are there hitboxes? - I cannot answer this at this time (we have a few designs which require extensive testing before we determine the best approach).

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem. - While he mentioned these games as influences, that was sheer guesswork. We have never stated specific games as the influence for our combat system. Indeed, in some ways it is wholely different to all, except in some cases in the "feel" of the system.

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO? - Assuming this is related to the skill system. Again, I cannot give an answer in great depth here, as we have not released that system yet. It will be unlike both MO and DFO however. MO has a fixed skill point pool, which caps the maximum spend on skills. DFO has no caps, so anyone can macro to great power. Our system is entirely different, which you could refer to as a soft-cap with skill decay and deminishing returns... but that also wouldn't really fully describe the system. We are very happy with this system however, and I apologise we can't give you more at this time.

How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks? - Again, we haven't divulged the details of this system yet, and dont intend to right now. The high level is, you gain skills by using those skills. There is also a split between "Skill" (or Proficiency) and "Knowledge".

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about? - Again, we haven't released specifics on this system yet, but death will hurt.

Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"? - There are no PvP "Zones", and no flags. You are always "lootable".

Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)? - Yes, it is. You will not have access to a lot of facilities, due to being an "outlaw" (and therefore prohibited from entering towns you are outlawed from). The system is based on a factions. Every controlled territory, association, and indeed individual forms their own "faction", which dictates how you feel about them, and how they feel about you (quite like the EvE system). This is then tied into the Law and Politics systems, so breaking laws in a territory causes you to lose faction with that territory, with the amount depending on the severity of the offence, ultimately leading to you being "outlawed" in that area. When you consider with the size of the world, the next town may be a few hours away, that does limit your options somewhat! Also, with the size of the world, it should be quite easy to escape into the wilds and establish your own hidden safe haven should you so wish.

How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink? - Death wont be fun, sorry. It is intentionally painful (while still trying to be reasonable enough to make it not gamebreaking). We want to foster a true fear of death, as it factors into many things, like how people approach fights. How much death hurts is the difference between an army throwing itself at the walls in a seige, and performing a tactical battle. By "hurting" I dont necessarily mean a pure "time sink", it should be much more interesting than that.

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy? - First of all, the size of the world. In a game 44,000 sq km, where one continent is 3,800 sq km, not all resources are going to be in one spot. A force may be able to hoard resources in one area, but fair play to them. Thats their way of exerting control/pressure on that area, or getting good profits. Its up to others to either take those resources from them, barter for those resources (find something the hoarders need, and trade on a more even footing), or search elsewhere for that resource. The world is WAY too big to hoard all of the resources, or monopolise the game, especially when you consider resources are spread over four continents.

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns?  - This is obvoiusly critical to the gameplay, which was another consideration with the size of the world. A larger world promotes localised economies, and meaningful trade. Access to resources, and the skill to create items, will factor heavily into the availability of product. Also, with things being lootable, and with natural damage/wear on items, there will be a need to replace items as they get older. There is a LOT more to this, and we do have economic experts on the team who are hot on this topic. It isn't just totally freeform, there are many systems designed just to support the economy.

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else? - The size of the world (a player can only dominate the economy in one spot). The full loot-open pvp (if someone gets out of hand, tehy will get lynched). The faction systems (people abusing the economy will likely get thrown out). But, all that being said, creative and sneaky playing of the economic game is perfectly valid. We do have some economic systems planned to stop it getting too crazy however.

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation? - I can't talk about everything we have planned here, but there will be plenty of monitoring, and we will have a dedicated team who's job is to both monitor the health of the world, as well as make it feel alive (the DET).

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct? - I can't talk deeply about this, but in short, yes to regulations on conduct (they can set laws), and for economical restrictions, yes but I can't go into detail.

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production? - Who mentioned mass-production? Everything will have a purpose, even if that purpose is just Fluff (we all know players love their Fluff). Outside that, I dont understand what you are getting at with that question.

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive? - Romtim was actually correct on this one. The player will have an option to craft using the more interactive manual method, or the automated "hit craft" style method (although more detailed than that). The manual method will always create far superior results. We haven't released any information on the manual crafting systems, but it will be a form of mini-game, yes.

Will there be assemblage? - Assuming I understand your meaning by "Assemblage", yes. There will be numerous steps in the crafting cycle, from refining the materials, to creating the components (blade, hilt etc) to assembly of those components.

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns? - Why would it?

Jack of all trades - master of none effect? - Yes, although still I can't discuss the system. But if you try to maintain too many different skills, you will not excell at any of them. If you focus on a few skills, particularly related skills, you can master those skills.

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization? - Viable? Yes, But nowhere near as good. If you want to be the best, you need to specialise. But, there are deminishing returns, so a 100% specialist will only be a bit better than an 80% specialist, and both will be increasingly more skilled than a 60% specialist. Why would we give incentives not to specialise? The only incentive is diversity, and being able to handle multiple situations, as it is a single character per account game.

 

Also, to correct your other post. The Creative Director is a long time Gamer, yes, and he has blacksmith training. He is also a Writer and is an excellent game designer. We actually have a full design team, just so you know. I'm the Technical Director, and no im not a systems engineer. I am a Software Engineer, IT Security consultant and researcher, and also a long time gamer. I am fully aware what works or does not work in games, and I have the knowledge to not only design systems, but to engineer those systems, and understand the technical feasibility of those systems. And, of course the Art Director does Art. That is just a silly statement. He also works hard to ensure the artistic direction of the project stays on track, and fits the world we are creating.

We have a large team, all mature professionals, all with a lot of specific skills, and life experience. Do not underestimate our team :)

 

Anyway, its getting late, and I am a busy guy. I hope that clarified a few things.

 

  Sebali

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 384

5/23/12 5:07:05 PM#11

ok, i really dont know much about whats going on in this thread. I've read the planned features but figured since the game was a ways off i wouldnt bother looking into to it more until they were much closer to release.

 

that being said...is Romtim a dev?

if so, you would think he would know a bit more about the game. way too many "i have no idea" answers.

 

if hes not a developer, he obviously has something to do with the game. the people in charge should really muzzle him a bit. his one post in this thread is worded in such a way that it may turn off potential players.

calling people trolls, be it deserved or not, is not a way to get people interested in your game. they just lose respect for you, thus lose interest in the game.

 

just my 2 cents.

  User Deleted
5/23/12 5:14:10 PM#12
Originally posted by Sebali

ok, i really dont know much about whats going on in this thread. I've read the planned features but figured since the game was a ways off i wouldnt bother looking into to it more until they were much closer to release.

that being said...is Romtim a dev?

if so, you would think he would know a bit more about the game. way too many "i have no idea" answers.

if hes not a developer, he obviously has something to do with the game. the people in charge should really muzzle him a bit. his one post in this thread is worded in such a way that it may turn off potential players.

calling people trolls, be it deserved or not, is not a way to get people interested in your game. they just lose respect for you, thus lose interest in the game.

just my 2 cents.

Agreed... Romtim is doing more harm to EoC than any good.

  DaveBelcher

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 39

5/23/12 5:24:08 PM#13
Originally posted by Sebali

ok, i really dont know much about whats going on in this thread. I've read the planned features but figured since the game was a ways off i wouldnt bother looking into to it more until they were much closer to release.

 

that being said...is Romtim a dev?

if so, you would think he would know a bit more about the game. way too many "i have no idea" answers.

 

if hes not a developer, he obviously has something to do with the game. the people in charge should really muzzle him a bit. his one post in this thread is worded in such a way that it may turn off potential players.

calling people trolls, be it deserved or not, is not a way to get people interested in your game. they just lose respect for you, thus lose interest in the game.

 

just my 2 cents.

 

Romtim is not a dev, and he has nothing to do with the game. He joined our community last Friday, and is just very excited I guess. He does not speak for the dev team, and we can't really "muzzle" him as he is just a fan.

 

I have tried to rectify the issue a bit, with my previous post. I will check back with this thread in case anyone wants any more "official" information. But, as for RomTim, please dont think he represents the Developer team in any way. We certainly do not behave in that manner.

 

Thank you for your understanding,

Dave Belcher

  DaveBelcher

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 39

5/23/12 5:28:01 PM#14

Oh, and the other thread was locked out at my request.

 

Cheers,

Dave

  User Deleted
5/23/12 5:28:54 PM#15
Originally posted by DaveBelcher

OK, so this is getting a bit out of hand.

1. First of all, while Romtim means well, and is passing in information he feels is correct, he does not speak with any authority. For official information, it is best to ask on our official site, to be answered by an actual developer.

But, to try and bring this discussion back on track, I will do what I can with your questions. I cannot answer all of them, as there are many systems we have not yet released information on. This is for a number of reasons which, as you seem to be an intelligent person, I am sure you can understand.

2. How does the skill-based combat work? -  We haven't released any information on this at this time. The broad "feel" of it though is, first person, you swing/shoot where you aim, and you can block/parry (and potentially evade) attacks.

Are we talking about aiming here? - Yes, although there may be some exceptions where you wont be "aiming" as such (some forms of magic for example).

Are there hitboxes? - I cannot answer this at this time (we have a few designs which require extensive testing before we determine the best approach).

You mentioned Mount and Blade/Skyrim/MO which are nothing alike in combat, so please clarify how these are supposed to work in tandem. - While he mentioned these games as influences, that was sheer guesswork. We have never stated specific games as the influence for our combat system. Indeed, in some ways it is wholely different to all, except in some cases in the "feel" of the system.

How does this work? There are no limits like in MO, yet there is no difference in power like in DFO? - Assuming this is related to the skill system. Again, I cannot give an answer in great depth here, as we have not released that system yet. It will be unlike both MO and DFO however. MO has a fixed skill point pool, which caps the maximum spend on skills. DFO has no caps, so anyone can macro to great power. Our system is entirely different, which you could refer to as a soft-cap with skill decay and deminishing returns... but that also wouldn't really fully describe the system. We are very happy with this system however, and I apologise we can't give you more at this time.

How does skill-training look? Is usage of the skill a factor? Is it passive skilltrainging? Experience gain and distribution? Perks? - Again, we haven't divulged the details of this system yet, and dont intend to right now. The high level is, you gain skills by using those skills. There is also a split between "Skill" (or Proficiency) and "Knowledge".

How does this work? What kind of consequences are we talking about? - Again, we haven't released specifics on this system yet, but death will hurt.

3. Are you being flagged for looting? Is the looting only allowed in sieges or special PVP "zones"? - There are no PvP "Zones", and no flags. You are always "lootable".

4. Is it hard to play a bandit/thief/outlaw in EoC (as it should be)? How is the game going to restrict the complete gankfest that usually comes with FFAPVP environment (bounties? guards? safezones? gods wrath?)? - Yes, it is. You will not have access to a lot of facilities, due to being an "outlaw" (and therefore prohibited from entering towns you are outlawed from). The system is based on a factions. Every controlled territory, association, and indeed individual forms their own "faction", which dictates how you feel about them, and how they feel about you (quite like the EvE system). This is then tied into the Law and Politics systems, so breaking laws in a territory causes you to lose faction with that territory, with the amount depending on the severity of the offence, ultimately leading to you being "outlawed" in that area. When you consider with the size of the world, the next town may be a few hours away, that does limit your options somewhat! Also, with the size of the world, it should be quite easy to escape into the wilds and establish your own hidden safe haven should you so wish.

5. How will the game make death "fun" instead of frustrating and a timesink? - Death wont be fun, sorry. It is intentionally painful (while still trying to be reasonable enough to make it not gamebreaking). We want to foster a true fear of death, as it factors into many things, like how people approach fights. How much death hurts is the difference between an army throwing itself at the walls in a seige, and performing a tactical battle. By "hurting" I dont necessarily mean a pure "time sink", it should be much more interesting than that.

How will the game mitigate resource-hoarding and resource denial? How will the game prevent monopolies that prevent other players from taking part in the economy? - First of all, the size of the world. In a game 44,000 sq km, where one continent is 3,800 sq km, not all resources are going to be in one spot. A force may be able to hoard resources in one area, but fair play to them. Thats their way of exerting control/pressure on that area, or getting good profits. Its up to others to either take those resources from them, barter for those resources (find something the hoarders need, and trade on a more even footing), or search elsewhere for that resource. The world is WAY too big to hoard all of the resources, or monopolise the game, especially when you consider resources are spread over four continents.

What part will the economy play in the overal gameplay? Will items have diminishing returns? Will crafting have diminishing returns?  - This is obvoiusly critical to the gameplay, which was another consideration with the size of the world. A larger world promotes localised economies, and meaningful trade. Access to resources, and the skill to create items, will factor heavily into the availability of product. Also, with things being lootable, and with natural damage/wear on items, there will be a need to replace items as they get older. There is a LOT more to this, and we do have economic experts on the team who are hot on this topic. It isn't just totally freeform, there are many systems designed just to support the economy.

What prevents a player abusing the economy to make the game unplayable for anyone else? - The size of the world (a player can only dominate the economy in one spot). The full loot-open pvp (if someone gets out of hand, tehy will get lynched). The faction systems (people abusing the economy will likely get thrown out). But, all that being said, creative and sneaky playing of the economic game is perfectly valid. We do have some economic systems planned to stop it getting too crazy however.

What safeguards have been put in place to prevent currency inflation? - I can't talk about everything we have planned here, but there will be plenty of monitoring, and we will have a dedicated team who's job is to both monitor the health of the world, as well as make it feel alive (the DET).

Can the politics set economical restriction and regulations on conduct? - I can't talk deeply about this, but in short, yes to regulations on conduct (they can set laws), and for economical restrictions, yes but I can't go into detail.

Keeping in mind that the game has a supposed player-driven economy, how can every item have a purpose and be usefull to someone, especially with the mentione mass-production? - Who mentioned mass-production? Everything will have a purpose, even if that purpose is just Fluff (we all know players love their Fluff). Outside that, I dont understand what you are getting at with that question.

How does the crafting work? Is it interactive? Passive? - Romtim was actually correct on this one. The player will have an option to craft using the more interactive manual method, or the automated "hit craft" style method (although more detailed than that). The manual method will always create far superior results. We haven't released any information on the manual crafting systems, but it will be a form of mini-game, yes.

Will there be assemblage? - Assuming I understand your meaning by "Assemblage", yes. There will be numerous steps in the crafting cycle, from refining the materials, to creating the components (blade, hilt etc) to assembly of those components.

Again does crafting suffer from diminishing returns? - Why would it?

Jack of all trades - master of none effect? - Yes, although still I can't discuss the system. But if you try to maintain too many different skills, you will not excell at any of them. If you focus on a few skills, particularly related skills, you can master those skills.

How does the game make jacks of all trades viable versus specialization? What incentives are there to not specialize vs. specialization? - Viable? Yes, But nowhere near as good. If you want to be the best, you need to specialise. But, there are deminishing returns, so a 100% specialist will only be a bit better than an 80% specialist, and both will be increasingly more skilled than a 60% specialist. Why would we give incentives not to specialise? The only incentive is diversity, and being able to handle multiple situations, as it is a single character per account game.

Also, to correct your other post. The Creative Director is a long time Gamer, yes, and he has blacksmith training. He is also a Writer and has an excellent designer. We actually have a full design team, just so you know. I'm the Technical Director, and no im not a systems engineer. I am a Software Engineer, IT Security consultant and researcher, and also a long time gamer. I am fully aware what works or does not work in games, and I have the knowledge to not only design systems, but to engineer those systems, and understand the technical feasibility of those systems. And, of course the Art Director does Art. That is just a silly statement. He also works hard to ensure the artistic direction of the project stays on track, and fits the world we are creating.

We have a large team, all mature professionals, all with a lot of specific skills, and life experience. Do not underestimate our team :)

Anyway, its getting late, and I am a busy guy. I hope that clarified a few things.

I apologize if my comments appear to be negative (I'm not trolling Romtim!), I'm just trying to be realistic about certain aspects of the game. I love sandbox games (to a point), and though I may see several obstacles with regards to EoC, I really do wish you guys all the success in the world! :-)

1. finally! I and prob most of us appreciate a dev from EoC coming here and clarafying what was going on with Romtim. Thank you DaveBelcher.

2. Any chance you'll have a 3rd person gamplay option available? Unfortuantely I do not like 1st person gameplay enough to make it a deal breaker for me.

3. Always lootable? Though prob a cool concept I don't think it will work in a game... end up having gangfests and severe camping.

4. Though I understand the concept of factions, what is to stop a ganking majority from making ganking-friendly laws? Of course, the same could be said of the opposite. Thing is, most people who play always-lootable, always-ganking games are people who like to gank... not my kind of crowd.

5. making players afraid of drying in the game will diminish adventure and exploration. I'm not saying have no consequences for death, but there should be a happy middle. This goes back to making a game too realistic, people aren't going to want to play it.

  Sebali

Novice Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 384

5/23/12 5:31:57 PM#16
Originally posted by DaveBelcher
Originally posted by Sebali

ok, i really dont know much about whats going on in this thread. I've read the planned features but figured since the game was a ways off i wouldnt bother looking into to it more until they were much closer to release.

 

that being said...is Romtim a dev?

if so, you would think he would know a bit more about the game. way too many "i have no idea" answers.

 

if hes not a developer, he obviously has something to do with the game. the people in charge should really muzzle him a bit. his one post in this thread is worded in such a way that it may turn off potential players.

calling people trolls, be it deserved or not, is not a way to get people interested in your game. they just lose respect for you, thus lose interest in the game.

 

just my 2 cents.

 

Romtim is not a dev, and he has nothing to do with the game. He joined our community last Friday, and is just very excited I guess. He does not speak for the dev team, and we can't really "muzzle" him as he is just a fan.

 

I have tried to rectify the issue a bit, with my previous post. I will check back with this thread in case anyone wants any more "official" information. But, as for RomTim, please dont think he represents the Developer team in any way. We certainly do not behave in that manner.

 

Thank you for your understanding,

Dave Belcher

thank you for the clarification. I will nolonger hold his blabbering against your team/game.....not that i really did anyway.

best of luck to you!!!

 

please have a SWG CH type proffession!! lol

  AdamTM

Novice Member

Joined: 5/05/05
Posts: 1395

I'M PUNCHING YOUR SALAD!!!!

 
OP  5/23/12 5:31:58 PM#17

Originally posted by Snoepie

Originally posted by AdamTM
 

In general it feels like the developer wrote down a bunch of features without connection.

None of the founders/creators has any game-development experience, the Creative Director is a "gamer" and metal-worker, the Founder is a systems-engineer, and the art-director does art.

This isn't to say they -can't- make this work, but I don't see it happening with this complexity and on this scale.

Especially since to create a functioning economy in a game you have to understand economic systems and nobody in this game (again) seems to understand those.

Capitalistic free-market economies dont "fix themselves" they don't run on "automatic". If you are taking free-market models from real life into your game, you are taking all their flaws as well, and you need to have safeguards for these flaws.

Trust me when I say this, "realistic" medieval economy sucked. Nobody wants to live/play -in- (not with) these economic settings, because they suck.

Realism isn't something to strive for, because realism isn't always good.

 

 

To create the game they want it to be, I would highly suggest employing these people as consultants:

- an actual game designer (this game needs it)

- someone with an economics major (for the economy)

- a sociology major (for discovering the expected group-dynamics in the ruleset)

 

The game has too many unknowns in everything, lets hope the developers have the answers but don't want to post them.

Right now it looks like they are putting the cart before the horse.

he adam.. how do you know all this..???

Excatly.. you don't.. this is your speculation..

i know for certain that there are couple of people from darkfall and mortal online in this team..

So your statements or so called facts are just wrong..

I'm asking questions, i have not made any statements of "fact" about the game.

I have made observations about the conduct of the developer and unanswered questions.

Originally posted by RLSekulich

There are a lot of blanks right now simply because it would be highly unwise to just post, what would essentially be, the entire design documentation.  Many of the concepts could then be taken by other companies.  Ever wonder why so many patents exist? Because there are a lot of greedy people out there, they can and will steal anything they can get their hands on if it's not secured.

As for experience, just because resumes aren't posted, doesn't mean experience doesn't exist.  There are plenty of very experienced individuals on the team. The information given is just an overview, a biographical overview, not a resume.

I'm sure someone else can give you a lot more details and insight, but just because information isn't immediately available, doesn't mean it's non-existent.

Its just a general feeling i got from the kickstarter and the little info of what i read on their forum and website

In the kickstarter-video the developer says nothing about the game. Nothing at all.

Except that its a sandbox where they want to provide tools for you to play with.

There is no information to what exactly im pledging here beyond a feature list. I can't assess what kind of game this is/will/should be.

 

I'm not asking for detailed descriptions of game-mechanics that could be stolen, im just wondering how this game looks in the developers head (or a fans head for that matter).

The feature list isn't what makes the game.

 

  DaveBelcher

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 39

5/23/12 5:47:59 PM#18
Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Snoepie

Originally posted by AdamTM
 

In general it feels like the developer wrote down a bunch of features without connection.

None of the founders/creators has any game-development experience, the Creative Director is a "gamer" and metal-worker, the Founder is a systems-engineer, and the art-director does art.

This isn't to say they -can't- make this work, but I don't see it happening with this complexity and on this scale.

Especially since to create a functioning economy in a game you have to understand economic systems and nobody in this game (again) seems to understand those.

Capitalistic free-market economies dont "fix themselves" they don't run on "automatic". If you are taking free-market models from real life into your game, you are taking all their flaws as well, and you need to have safeguards for these flaws.

Trust me when I say this, "realistic" medieval economy sucked. Nobody wants to live/play -in- (not with) these economic settings, because they suck.

Realism isn't something to strive for, because realism isn't always good.

 

 

To create the game they want it to be, I would highly suggest employing these people as consultants:

- an actual game designer (this game needs it)

- someone with an economics major (for the economy)

- a sociology major (for discovering the expected group-dynamics in the ruleset)

 

The game has too many unknowns in everything, lets hope the developers have the answers but don't want to post them.

Right now it looks like they are putting the cart before the horse.

he adam.. how do you know all this..???

Excatly.. you don't.. this is your speculation..

i know for certain that there are couple of people from darkfall and mortal online in this team..

So your statements or so called facts are just wrong..

I'm asking questions, i have not made any statements of "fact" about the game.

I have made observations about the conduct of the developer and unanswered questions.

Originally posted by RLSekulich

There are a lot of blanks right now simply because it would be highly unwise to just post, what would essentially be, the entire design documentation.  Many of the concepts could then be taken by other companies.  Ever wonder why so many patents exist? Because there are a lot of greedy people out there, they can and will steal anything they can get their hands on if it's not secured.

As for experience, just because resumes aren't posted, doesn't mean experience doesn't exist.  There are plenty of very experienced individuals on the team. The information given is just an overview, a biographical overview, not a resume.

I'm sure someone else can give you a lot more details and insight, but just because information isn't immediately available, doesn't mean it's non-existent.

Its just a general feeling i got from the kickstarter and the little info of what i read on their forum and website

In the kickstarter-video the developer says nothing about the game. Nothing at all.

Except that its a sandbox where they want to provide tools for you to play with.

There is no information to what exactly im pledging here beyond a feature list. I can't assess what kind of game this is/will/should be.

 

I'm not asking for detailed descriptions of game-mechanics that could be stolen, im just wondering how this game looks in the developers head (or a fans head for that matter).

The feature list isn't what makes the game.

 

To address the second block. It is very hard to fit everything into a video that has to be short, and has a size limit. In the video I say that the viewer should go visit our game website, and read the overvew, vision, and feature list. That gives a broad overview of how the game looks in our eyes (particularly the vision).

We also have a number of videos. One is a game presentation I gave at a security conference, where I give an overview of the game, the other I talk about the seige warfare mechanics.

 

As for the feature list, that is the cut down list (there really are some crazy ideas that either weren't feasible, or didn't make the cut), to only those systems we have solid designs for, and know have a very high likelihood of making it into the game. We have been VERY cautious through the whole development livecycle, and with our interactions with the community, to not make promises we didn't think we could keep. We entered this project as some of the many gamers who have been through great dissapointment MANY times due to games promising one thing, and releasing some half-rate subset of that thing. That is what drove us to start this project, and this is what keeps us honest. It would be hypocritical to enter the project for one reason, then do the very same thing!

 

Anyway, if you haven't, read the Vision post on our game site, under game info.

 

 

  User Deleted
5/23/12 5:52:30 PM#19
Originally posted by Sebali

thank you for the clarification. I will nolonger hold his blabbering against your team/game.....not that i really did anyway.

best of luck to you!!!

please have a SWG CH type proffession!! lol

Agreed... I earlier menitoned how because of Romtim I was turned off to EoC; that is no longer the case. All games have their crazy fans, for good and for bad. I guess now the only real reason wh I prob would not play EoC is primarily because of the locked-in 1st person gamplay.

Best of luck to the devs of EoC!! its good to see that games can still come from the "small people" rather than from the giants (EA/Blizzard).

  DaveBelcher

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/11
Posts: 39

5/23/12 5:55:08 PM#20
Originally posted by joocheese

I apologize if my comments appear to be negative (I'm not trolling Romtim!), I'm just trying to be realistic about certain aspects of the game. I love sandbox games (to a point), and though I may see several obstacles with regards to EoC, I really do wish you guys all the success in the world! :-)

1. finally! I and prob most of us appreciate a dev from EoC coming here and clarafying what was going on with Romtim. Thank you DaveBelcher.

2. Any chance you'll have a 3rd person gamplay option available? Unfortuantely I do not like 1st person gameplay enough to make it a deal breaker for me.

3. Always lootable? Though prob a cool concept I don't think it will work in a game... end up having gangfests and severe camping.

4. Though I understand the concept of factions, what is to stop a ganking majority from making ganking-friendly laws? Of course, the same could be said of the opposite. Thing is, most people who play always-lootable, always-ganking games are people who like to gank... not my kind of crowd.

5. making players afraid of drying in the game will diminish adventure and exploration. I'm not saying have no consequences for death, but there should be a happy middle. This goes back to making a game too realistic, people aren't going to want to play it.

 

1. You're welcome.

2. Unfortunately not. We went through many designs discussions covering first person, third person, shoulder cam and hybrids of those. We, for many reasons, went with First Person and have subsequently based many, many system designs on this decision. Moving away from this now would mean many large redesigns, and honestly we stand by this decision. We are sorry if this means you will not want to play our game!

3. It works fine in many games: Eve, Darkfall, Mortal Online to name three. This is a killer feature for many players, and we also believe it fits the style of game we are trying to make. It also is a factor in the balance of many other systems, including the economy (if you can't lose your stuff, where is the demand on crafters?).

4. If a "ganking" group wishes to claim some territory, and put in "ganking friendly" laws, that is perfectly OK. I wouldn't expect many players wanting to go live there though! And again, with the size of the world, noone can dominate any significant part of it. I also disagree with your comment about people who play full-loot, full-pvp games. There is a whole HUGE crowd who like the risk and excitement of it who aren't gankers. Its just games that are badly designed drive those people away, so only gankers are left. We aim not to make this mistake.

5. There will be a happy medium, and gameplay always trumps realism... but there needs to be enough realism in a game like this to make it nicely immersive. As I said, death isn't game-breakingly bad. It is just "Seriously consider my actions based on the consequences" bad. And, "I think I will hire some protection on this trip" bad.

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