Originally posted by RebelScum99

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Deep combat?  Really?

Yep, layers on top of layers I can't think of anything with more depth. EVE maybe, but that doesn't count :)

 

Look at the video then  google "Seki's Chart" The video doesn't even go into states triggers and types of attacks. 

Umm...NO.  I think you are confusing character customization/progression with combat.  The combat in this game is the opposite of deep.  It's laughably bad.  Spam your basic resource-gaining skill until you have enough to fire off a resource-using skill.  Rinse and repeat.  There is nothing deep, or interesting, about that combat.  It's one of the most boring combat systems I've ever played in a game.

The character skill progression and customization is a different story, however.  That is pretty deep.  But that has nothing to do with the combat itself, aside from allowing you to pick which skills you get to use during the spam, spam, spam, power skill rotation. 

Hmm now wait, some of the deepest combat I remember in this genre came form this sort of thing, at least the knowledge required to be successful in PVP was fairly deep. Now what are we saying is boring and shallow about combat, that's its not focusing on twitch skills? OR is it something else? I never really pay attention to MMO combat at the earlier stages as it's always rather shallow, TSW felt more of the same in that regard.But at least the skill system offered hope that strategy and knowledge was required to be successful. That's what makes for one portion of good end-game PVP in an MMO.

Skills and what they do was at the forefront of what makes for deep RPG style combat before gear was a major factor. In SHort to save a long rant about what makes good MMO combat (strategy) I'll just say, skills are what makes this type of combat deep....

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Chopsticks

 

No, it really isn't ;) Build and finish is part of it, but that's the part they give you when you leave the training center. Remeber you have 2 weapons.

 

Most  likely you will have 2 finishers as well (you by no means have to have 2) How do you build both? Some abilities may build both, others may only build 1. What if the ability you are using is a AoE but it doesn't build both. How do you get to your other finisher? 

 

 

These are things you figure out and create for yourself. 

it is no matter if you have one or two finishers doesn't matter a whole lot it's basically the same I have about 80 hours in this game it really doesn't get very complicated PVE wise outside instances.. pvp is another story since I haven't done enough to form a solid opinion... only reason I really enjoy it is because I can change playstyle whenever I want.. but complicated? not really at least not "in combat"

I'd rather not say how many I have.

What you are saying is that because a rogue in WoW or a person in TSW uses savage strike ( a builder) then eviserates (a finisher) that's all he needs to do. Sure he can, but he is doing it very wrong.

I've played it.  You are not going to sell anyone on a combat system that is generic and well published in other MMO's.  No matter how you portray the character builds there will still be cookie cutters later on.  Stop trolling and move along.

The one thing that TSW has going for it is that the quests are actually intriguing.  You don't always get a marker on the map to point you in the right direction.  There is some investigative work, thinking, or exploring that needs to be done.

Now if only you as a player had some actual quest interaction other than standing there.  I always wanted to play a mute.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

The theory is sound, but in practice the combat leaves much to be desired. Spam 1 button to generate combo points. Ugh.

WOW, you actually believe it's like that outside the beginning periods of the game? Come on man, that could be said about any MMO when you've only aquired this or that skill.

You have no idea what content I have or haven't played in TSW, so perhaps you want to reserve your judgment.

Are you saying you only ever have access to one starter ability? I find that weird and almost hard to believe in a skill based character system.

No, I am not saying that. I said spam one button (whatever builder you choose). Try not to jump to conclusions.

"Resources are created through builder abilities and allow players to them consume them by using finisher abilities. Each weapon type has its own resource. A player does not need to use a skill specifically for creating the resource for their weapon, rather using any builder will create a resource for both their weapons regardless of type."

http://crygaia.net/wiki/Ability#Builders

The "builders" abilities change as you level but each section of the wheel you unlock usually gives you access to at least one builder. It is not always advantageous to use that builder in the place of one of the earlier ones. The finishers, aoe, rooting, elite skills etc may change but the essential function does not.

This is incomplete but it gives you an idea on elemental magic (the primary tree into which I put points)

http://crygaia.net/wiki/Elementalism

Basic idea is that you spam builders, expend them on finishers/aoe/roots/elites. This is true regardless if they are tier 1, 2 or 3 items.

Passives are generally more interesting and can include self-heals and buffs to damage abilities and mob debuffs..

As I said, interesting in concept, less interesting in practice. Some people will appreciate this system but for me personally, combat is not where this game shines.

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

The theory is sound, but in practice the combat leaves much to be desired. Spam 1 button to generate combo points. Ugh.

WOW, you actually believe it's like that outside the beginning periods of the game? Come on man, that could be said about any MMO when you've only aquired this or that skill.

You have no idea what content I have or haven't played in TSW, so perhaps you want to reserve your judgment.

Are you saying you only ever have access to one starter ability? I find that weird and almost hard to believe in a skill based character system.

Resources are created through builder abilities and allow players to them consume them by using finisher abilities. Each weapon type has its own resource. A player does not need to use a skill specifically for creating the resource for their weapon, rather using any builder will create a resource for both their weapons regardless of type.

http://crygaia.net/wiki/Ability#Builders

The "builders" abilities change as you level but each section of the wheel you unlock usually gives you access to at least one builder. It is not always advantageous to use that builder in the place of one of the earlier ones. The finishers, aoe, rooting, elite skills etc may change but the essential function does not.

This is incomplete but it gives you an idea on elemental magic (the primary tree into which I put points)

http://crygaia.net/wiki/Elementalism

Basic idea is that you spam builders, expend them on finishers/aoe/roots. This is true regardless if they are tier 1 or tier 3 items.

Passives are generally more interesting and can include self-heals and buffs to damage abilities.

As I said, interesting in concept, less interesting in practice.

Yeah it's pretty simple on the surface.  Again though spamming builders then hitting a finisher will do damage, but by know means "maximizes dps"  It's like one guy parsing 2k and another parsing 4k.

What I underlined is wrong. All builders do not build both resources. Some do but not all.  That's another cool thing, we all are still learning the system :)

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Yeah it's pretty simple on the surface.  Again though spamming builders then hitting a finisher will do damage, but by know means "maximizes dps"  It's like one guy parsing 2k and another parsing 4k.

What I underlined is wrong. All builders do not build both resource. Some do but not all.  That's another cool thing, we all are still learning the system :)

Look, I don't really want to debate this any more. You see complexity here, fine.

The way I see it is that shortly after release, some clever person will figure out the "best" builds for PvE. People will use them or just use the decks. There will be a standard rotation. There will be spamming of builders.

PvPers can tinker with this stuff all they want, though I don't really see TSW as a grand PvP game.

As I said, from my point of view, the charm of this game is not the combat, and in fact the combat takes away from the areas in which this game excells.

Feel free to continue this debate without me.

Actually I'm with the OP, except more the hypothetical. The combat is terrible, but the theory behind it would have been phenomenal. He's right, the customization is great, the skill wheel is nice even if you're restricted to two weapons at a time, and even though everyone can get ALL skills eventually, you're probably still never going to find someone with the same build as you (unless you go cookie cutter, but then that's your own fault). Funcom just, in my opinion, didn't do as good a job of bringing out the potential of the combat as they could have.

But that's why I still won't write the game off. I won't play it in its current state, but I'm going to keep it on the list of things to keep an eye on.

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Yeah it's pretty simple on the surface.  Again though spamming builders then hitting a finisher will do damage, but by know means "maximizes dps"  It's like one guy parsing 2k and another parsing 4k.

What I underlined is wrong. All builders do not build both resource. Some do but not all.  That's another cool thing, we all are still learning the system :)

Look, I don't really want to debate this any more. You see complexity here, fine.

The way I see it is that shortly after release, some clever person will figure out the "best" builds for PvE. People will use them or just use the decks. There will be a standard rotation. There will be spamming of builders.

PvPers can tinker with this stuff all they want, though I don't really see TSW as a grand PvP game.

As I said, from my point of view, the charm of this game is not the combat, and in fact the combat takes away from the areas in which this game excells.

Feel free to continue this debate without me.

It wasn't a debate I was just pointing out misconceptions. No problem it's your right to see things how you want. 

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Chopsticks

 

No, it really isn't ;) Build and finish is part of it, but that's the part they give you when you leave the training center. Remeber you have 2 weapons.

 

Most  likely you will have 2 finishers as well (you by no means have to have 2) How do you build both? Some abilities may build both, others may only build 1. What if the ability you are using is a AoE but it doesn't build both. How do you get to your other finisher? 

 

 

These are things you figure out and create for yourself. 

it is no matter if you have one or two finishers doesn't matter a whole lot it's basically the same I have about 80 hours in this game it really doesn't get very complicated PVE wise outside instances.. pvp is another story since I haven't done enough to form a solid opinion... only reason I really enjoy it is because I can change playstyle whenever I want.. but complicated? not really at least not "in combat"

I'd rather not say how many I have.

 

What you are saying is that because a rogue in WoW or a person in TSW uses savage strike ( a builder) then eviserates (a finisher) that's all he needs to do. Sure he can, but he is doing it very wrong.

no I'm not I'm saying limiting it to the 7 skills in a system that uses builders and finishers type system limits the complexity of the system. Don't get me wrong it has a lot of options and  I like it but.. actually nevermind I really don't feel like arguing this point anymore.. system is ok not amazing but its a ton better than the standard swtor crap just wish the actual combat flowed a little better.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Chopsticks

 

No, it really isn't ;) Build and finish is part of it, but that's the part they give you when you leave the training center. Remeber you have 2 weapons.

 

Most  likely you will have 2 finishers as well (you by no means have to have 2) How do you build both? Some abilities may build both, others may only build 1. What if the ability you are using is a AoE but it doesn't build both. How do you get to your other finisher? 

 

 

These are things you figure out and create for yourself. 

it is no matter if you have one or two finishers doesn't matter a whole lot it's basically the same I have about 80 hours in this game it really doesn't get very complicated PVE wise outside instances.. pvp is another story since I haven't done enough to form a solid opinion... only reason I really enjoy it is because I can change playstyle whenever I want.. but complicated? not really at least not "in combat"

I'd rather not say how many I have.

 

What you are saying is that because a rogue in WoW or a person in TSW uses savage strike ( a builder) then eviserates (a finisher) that's all he needs to do. Sure he can, but he is doing it very wrong.

no I'm not I'm saying limiting it to the 7 skills in a system that uses builders and finishers type system limits the complexity of the system. Don't get me wrong it has a lot of options and  I like it but.. actually nevermind I really don't feel like arguing this point anymore.. system is ok not amazing but its a ton better than the standard swtor crap just wish the actual combat flowed a little better.

all good fun talk. It is what it is ;)

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

The theory is sound, but in practice the combat leaves much to be desired. Spam 1 button to generate combo points. Ugh.

WOW, you actually believe it's like that outside the beginning periods of the game? Come on man, that could be said about any MMO when you've only aquired this or that skill.

You have no idea what content I have or haven't played in TSW, so perhaps you want to reserve your judgment.

Are you saying you only ever have access to one starter ability? I find that weird and almost hard to believe in a skill based character system.

No, I am not saying that. I said spam one button (whatever builder you choose). Try not to jump to conclusions.

"Resources are created through builder abilities and allow players to them consume them by using finisher abilities. Each weapon type has its own resource. A player does not need to use a skill specifically for creating the resource for their weapon, rather using any builder will create a resource for both their weapons regardless of type."

http://crygaia.net/wiki/Ability#Builders

The "builders" abilities change as you level but each section of the wheel you unlock usually gives you access to at least one builder. It is not always advantageous to use that builder in the place of one of the earlier ones. The finishers, aoe, rooting, elite skills etc may change but the essential function does not.

This is incomplete but it gives you an idea on elemental magic (the primary tree into which I put points)

http://crygaia.net/wiki/Elementalism

Basic idea is that you spam builders, expend them on finishers/aoe/roots/elites. This is true regardless if they are tier 1, 2 or 3 items.

Passives are generally more interesting and can include self-heals and buffs to damage abilities and mob debuffs..

As I said, interesting in concept, less interesting in practice. Some people will appreciate this system but for me personally, combat is not where this game shines.

And the basic concept for most of the classes and class combinations in Rift 

Really?  Deep customization?  Looks like the pretty typical mmorpg style talent tree disguised with a wheel form and some passives.

Also lol @ 4:41 charge.

That video's examples of "synergy" are terrible.  You can choose passives, like increased crit chance, that BEAUTIFULLY synergize with and augment ALL of your abilities!  That's not synergy; those are just stats.

I mean character builds in TSW may very well be quite complex.  I don't know.  I haven't played the game.  But that video did an awful job of demonstrating any complexity or actual synergy that may be present.  Artificially tossing out boosting adjectives with every other sentence didn't help.  

Originally posted by Homitu

That video's examples of "synergy" are terrible.  You can choose passives, like increased crit chance, that BEAUTIFULLY synergize with and augment ALL of your abilities!  That's not synergy; those are just stats.

I mean character builds in TSW may very well be quite complex.  I don't know.  I haven't played the game.  But that video did an awful job of demonstrating any complexity or actual synergy that may be present.  Artificially tossing out boosting adjectives with every other sentence didn't help.  

I'm sure you didn't read the entire thread but this is on page 3. Forgive me for the repost, but it builds upon what the video is showing you.

Synergy is abstact.. Synergy means a lot of things when you hear it used with TSW: 

Types of attacks - GTAoE, PBAoE, Channels, Cones, Single target, Multi target, types of CC and about 6 other types 

Sub types  -Chains, Bursts, Blasts, Strikes, Focus, Freenzys, and a few more.

States -  Hindered, impaired, weaken, afflicted

Now the goal is to put all of this together into something that works for you, "synergy"

I could make a Melee build  based PBAoE (Point Blank) and hinders. With passives that give survivability. Or I could take the same build's actives and support them with dps passives, or even healing passives. Someone else could have the exact same idea with a totally different build.  Using none of the abilities I used.

Pretty deep if you ask me ;)

Originally posted by TheHavok

Really?  Deep customization?  Looks like the pretty typical mmorpg style talent tree disguised with a wheel form and some passives.

Also lol @ 4:41 charge.

I disagree. In other MMO's you don't have the freedom to combine all the available skills ingame, instead you have a limited set of skills and abilities that are linked to your class. In TSW you can obtain and mix up the existing skills in any way you like, create your own 'class' or role that fits best with your playstyle or to counter a specific situation.

Next to that, the interaction between skills and their affecting eachother is more so than in most other MMO's. A skill might for example cause an additional AoE explosion effect if you or other players got the targeted mob burned, or if a target got slowed another skill cause an additional DoT on it or severely decreased armor etc.

Originally posted by CujoSWAoA

I'm not sure I agree with "no two characters are alike" with this skill system.

Because the idea here is to use a Build that is the smartest design for your current enemy.  So essentially, that means players will be striving toward the same layout of active skills to be most appropriate for the current situation in front of them.

Thusly making them similiar (if not identical) to the person beside them.

Correct you are.  At first many people will be like I'm going to be a jack of all trades or a hybrid.  However when they find out they are garbage compared to a min/max build they will see that there are definatley classes built into the system.  The advantage with the system is versatility, you can swap your roll quickly.  Need a healer no problem just swap out the skills so you are min/maxed for healing.

All it takes to realize this is look at the wheel, there are different skills per weapon and each weapon has a defined roll.  From the skill wheel go to skills (where you put SP points into weapons).  Now highlight the weapons and look at the tooltip.  For example Assualt rifle says in the tooltip damage/healing.  Shotgun says damage/support, hammer damage/tank. 

Originally posted by Deivos

Please don't pull the uninformed noob comment on me. It's not very appreciative and offers zero constructive value.

 

Perhaps make an actual comment on the system, that would provide context to the conversation.

OK

understanding the basics of the secret world combat.

start here, then after reading and making sure you understood go here, after reading the two, be sure you understand everything so far, I think you can go here and try to learn one idea that belongs to the normal level of knowledge about the combat, anything more specific than that, you have to play the CB to full understand.

if you have any questions, I will try to answer, but english is not my main language.

Originally posted by RebelScum99

The combat in this game is the opposite of deep.  It's laughably bad.  

Still better than SWTOR was at launch.

I see a lot of people start looking at TSW with their mind already made up that it will be bad, see the combat looks like other games, and don't look any deeper into it before writing the whole thing off.

While I agree the actual fighting itself isn't anything really special, the process of putting together a build, testing it and always analyzing how your theory works out in practice makes it pretty damn interesting.

And in addition to the builder->finisher combat skills, you also have skills that are neither builder or finisher, mostly on a longer cooldown. You can make a build without a single builder or finisher if you want.