Originally posted by RebelScum99

Deep combat?  Really?

Yep, layers on top of layers I can't think of anything with more depth. EVE maybe, but that doesn't count :)

Look at the video then  google "Seki's Chart" The video doesn't even go into states triggers and types of attacks. 

Oh dear feaking lord.

They're stacking debuffs/buffs. That's all this 'synergy' is.

I feel sad for having watched that video now.

Originally posted by Deivos

Oh dear feaking lord.

 

They're stacking debuffs/buffs. That's all this 'synergy' is.

 

I feel sad for having watched that video now.

No not really. Well a lot more than that. Nothing needs to "stack" (not sure what you mean by this) to make "synergy." Synergy is abstact.. Synergy means a lot of things when you hear it used with TSW: 

Types of attacks - GTAoE, PBAoE, Channels, Cones, Single target, Multi target, types of CC and about 6 other types 

Sub types  -Chains, Bursts, Blasts, Strikes, Focus, Freenzys, and a few more.

States -  Hindered, impaired, weaken, afflicted

Now the goal is to put all of this together into something that works for you, "synergy"

I could make a Melee build  based PBAoE (Point Blank) and hinders. With passives that give survivability. Or I could take the same build's actives and support them with dps passives, or even healing passives. Someone else could have the exact same idea with a totally different build.  Using none of the abilities I used.

Pretty deep if you ask me ;)

I'm sure the combat has more layers than an onion.

Mmm just not seeing it.

Stacking debuffs is the act of either using an effect that applies a debuff multiple times, or a set that applies several debuffs. Both are done with the intent that they cater to culminating in the use of another specific attack type that deals damage focused against what has been debuffed.

It's certainly nice, but I would not call that deep. Or no deeper than most other games that remove specific class restrictions.

Like for example Saga of Ryzom. Now that game has a skill system I would call deep.

EDIT: Point being even Hellgate has a degree of that 'complexity' or 'layers' being claimed. And that game's skill system was by no means ever considered deep.

Originally posted by Deivos

Oh dear feaking lord.

 

They're stacking debuffs/buffs. That's all this 'synergy' is.

 

I feel sad for having watched that video now.

I feel sad for you, because you think you know the game, but have no idea of it, you just watched a video made for noobs...

Please don't pull the uninformed noob comment on me. It's not very appreciative and offers zero constructive value.

Perhaps make an actual comment on the system, that would provide context to the conversation.

All I can say is... I wish it was as good as it sounds on paper. I really do.

I'm not sure I agree with "no two characters are alike" with this skill system.

Because the idea here is to use a Build that is the smartest design for your current enemy.  So essentially, that means players will be striving toward the same layout of active skills to be most appropriate for the current situation in front of them.

Thusly making them similiar (if not identical) to the person beside them.

Originally posted by Chopsticks

No not really. Well a lot more than that. Nothing needs to "stack" (not sure what you mean by this) to make "synergy." Synergy is abstact.. Synergy means a lot of things when you hear it used with TSW: 

Types of attacks - GTAoE, PBAoE, Channels, Cones, Single target, Multi target, types of CC and about 6 other types 

Sub types  -Chains, Bursts, Blasts, Strikes, Focus, Freenzys, and a few more.

States -  Hindered, impaired, weaken, afflicted

Now the goal is to put all of this together into something that works for you, "synergy"

I could make a Melee build  based PBAoE (Point Blank) and hinders. With passives that give survivability. Or I could take the same build's actives and support them with dps passives, or even healing passives. Someone else could have the exact same idea with a totally different build.  Using none of the abilities I used.

Pretty deep if you ask me ;)

Problem is, that's not the combat.  More like a deep skill system, one that focuses entirely on combat.. but the combat itself?  Not sure I'd call that deep.

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Chopsticks

No not really. Well a lot more than that. Nothing needs to "stack" (not sure what you mean by this) to make "synergy." Synergy is abstact.. Synergy means a lot of things when you hear it used with TSW: 

Types of attacks - GTAoE, PBAoE, Channels, Cones, Single target, Multi target, types of CC and about 6 other types 

Sub types  -Chains, Bursts, Blasts, Strikes, Focus, Freenzys, and a few more.

States -  Hindered, impaired, weaken, afflicted

Now the goal is to put all of this together into something that works for you, "synergy"

I could make a Melee build  based PBAoE (Point Blank) and hinders. With passives that give survivability. Or I could take the same build's actives and support them with dps passives, or even healing passives. Someone else could have the exact same idea with a totally different build.  Using none of the abilities I used.

Pretty deep if you ask me ;)

 

Problem is, that's not the combat.  More like a deep skill system, one that focuses entirely on combat.. but the combat itself?  Not sure I'd call that deep.

 

Well it's not like you pick the abilities for nothing... You use them.

Originally posted by Charlizzard

The theory is sound, but in practice the combat leaves much to be desired. Spam 1 button to generate combo points. Ugh.

WOW, you actually believe it's like that outside the beginning periods of the game? Come on man, that could be said about any MMO when you've only aquired this or that skill.

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Chopsticks

No not really. Well a lot more than that. Nothing needs to "stack" (not sure what you mean by this) to make "synergy." Synergy is abstact.. Synergy means a lot of things when you hear it used with TSW: 

Types of attacks - GTAoE, PBAoE, Channels, Cones, Single target, Multi target, types of CC and about 6 other types 

Sub types  -Chains, Bursts, Blasts, Strikes, Focus, Freenzys, and a few more.

States -  Hindered, impaired, weaken, afflicted

Now the goal is to put all of this together into something that works for you, "synergy"

I could make a Melee build  based PBAoE (Point Blank) and hinders. With passives that give survivability. Or I could take the same build's actives and support them with dps passives, or even healing passives. Someone else could have the exact same idea with a totally different build.  Using none of the abilities I used.

Pretty deep if you ask me ;)

 

Problem is, that's not the combat.  More like a deep skill system, one that focuses entirely on combat.. but the combat itself?  Not sure I'd call that deep.

 

Well it's not like you pick the abilities for nothing... You use them.

yes but how you use them is pretty much basic builder spam --> finisher.. little variation and with 7 actives it doesn't give much play room for any sort of complex rotations

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

The theory is sound, but in practice the combat leaves much to be desired. Spam 1 button to generate combo points. Ugh.

WOW, you actually believe it's like that outside the beginning periods of the game? Come on man, that could be said about any MMO when you've only aquired this or that skill.

You have no idea what content I have or haven't played in TSW, so perhaps you want to reserve your judgment.

Originally posted by Charlizzard

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by Charlizzard

The theory is sound, but in practice the combat leaves much to be desired. Spam 1 button to generate combo points. Ugh.

WOW, you actually believe it's like that outside the beginning periods of the game? Come on man, that could be said about any MMO when you've only aquired this or that skill.

You have no idea what content I have or haven't played in TSW, so perhaps you want to reserve your judgment.

Are you saying you only ever have access to one starter ability? I find that weird and almost hard to believe in a skill based character system.

Hence my prior comment of stacking buffs/debuffs about all this.

Backend you might be tinkering with which powers you want. That is neither a far cry from the way most games handle their games, even WoW has the concept integrated to varying degrees across classes. Nor is it the combat itself.

Which in the end is also why I made my other references.

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by Vhaln

Originally posted by Chopsticks

No not really. Well a lot more than that. Nothing needs to "stack" (not sure what you mean by this) to make "synergy." Synergy is abstact.. Synergy means a lot of things when you hear it used with TSW: 

Types of attacks - GTAoE, PBAoE, Channels, Cones, Single target, Multi target, types of CC and about 6 other types 

Sub types  -Chains, Bursts, Blasts, Strikes, Focus, Freenzys, and a few more.

States -  Hindered, impaired, weaken, afflicted

Now the goal is to put all of this together into something that works for you, "synergy"

I could make a Melee build  based PBAoE (Point Blank) and hinders. With passives that give survivability. Or I could take the same build's actives and support them with dps passives, or even healing passives. Someone else could have the exact same idea with a totally different build.  Using none of the abilities I used.

Pretty deep if you ask me ;)

 

Problem is, that's not the combat.  More like a deep skill system, one that focuses entirely on combat.. but the combat itself?  Not sure I'd call that deep.

 

Well it's not like you pick the abilities for nothing... You use them.

yes but how you use them is pretty much basic builder spam --> finisher.. little variation and with 7 actives it doesn't give much play room for any sort of complex rotations

No, it really isn't ;) Build and finish is part of it, but that's the part they give you when you leave the training center. Remeber you have 2 weapons.

Most  likely you will have 2 finishers as well (you by no means have to have 2) How do you build both? Some abilities may build both, others may only build 1. What if the ability you are using is a AoE but it doesn't build both. How do you get to your other finisher? 

As for rotation, go ahead and build a deck with all dps abilities for pve. thats 7 damaging buttons for you rotation.

These are things you figure out and create for yourself. 

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Deep combat?  Really?

Yep, layers on top of layers I can't think of anything with more depth. EVE maybe, but that doesn't count :)

 

Look at the video then  google "Seki's Chart" The video doesn't even go into states triggers and types of attacks. 

Umm...NO.  I think you are confusing character customization/progression with combat.  The combat in this game is the opposite of deep.  It's laughably bad.  Spam your basic resource-gaining skill until you have enough to fire off a resource-using skill.  Rinse and repeat.  There is nothing deep, or interesting, about that combat.  It's one of the most boring combat systems I've ever played in a game.

The character skill progression and customization is a different story, however.  That is pretty deep.  But that has nothing to do with the combat itself, aside from allowing you to pick which skills you get to use during the spam, spam, spam, power skill rotation. 

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Originally posted by Chopsticks

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Deep combat?  Really?

Yep, layers on top of layers I can't think of anything with more depth. EVE maybe, but that doesn't count :)

 

Look at the video then  google "Seki's Chart" The video doesn't even go into states triggers and types of attacks. 

Umm...NO.  I think you are confusing character customization/progression with combat.  The combat in this game is the opposite of deep.  It's laughably bad.  Spam your basic resource-gaining skill until you have enough to fire off a resource-using skill.  Rinse and repeat.  There is nothing deep, or interesting, about that combat.  It's one of the most boring combat systems I've ever played in a game.

The character skill progression and customization is a different story, however.  That is pretty deep.  But that has nothing to do with the combat itself, aside from allowing you to pick which skills you get to use during the spam, spam, spam, power skill rotation. 

What about your other weapon? You do know you use 2 right? and they have different resouces. So using the "fabled 1 button spam" method is only 50% at best. probably a lot less if you have an ability that cause a state that you aren't using too.

Originally posted by Chopsticks

 

No, it really isn't ;) Build and finish is part of it, but that's the part they give you when you leave the training center. Remeber you have 2 weapons.

 

Most  likely you will have 2 finishers as well (you by no means have to have 2) How do you build both? Some abilities may build both, others may only build 1. What if the ability you are using is a AoE but it doesn't build both. How do you get to your other finisher? 

 

 

These are things you figure out and create for yourself. 

it is no matter if you have one or two finishers doesn't matter a whole lot it's basically the same I have about 80 hours in this game it really doesn't get very complicated PVE wise outside instances.. pvp is another story since I haven't done enough to form a solid opinion... only reason I really enjoy it is because I can change playstyle whenever I want.. but complicated? not really at least not "in combat"