[mod edit]

Eh maybe.  I just think it's a lost cause arguing with the guy.  I'm not saying he doesn't have a right to be angry, lots of people rage over their favorite game not getting the glory they feel it deserves, but does everything have to be about how Rift is so good?  The game was well developed and had a smooth launch, and happens to have quite a few people playing it, but to be so dead-set against GW2 because it's already more popular is kind of childish.

Besides, he claimed people would unsubscribe from GW2 for reasons that don't matter, there is no subscription fee.  I don't know what his deal is, but if it's trying to look like he doesn't know what he's talking about, it's working.

As for my rating, at least I know now what the whole stars theme means, that's more than I can for a month ago. lol

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by terrant

I don't see any more arrogance in that post than in pretty much any MMO developer blog I've read for any game since...well ever. Before WoW, people said the same things, but used EQ as the benchmark.

 

As for Rift...Rift's events were a step in the right direction, but horribly flawed. The ONE good thing about that game was a brilliantly inventive class system that I think more games could benefit from.

I agree I dunno why people get so stuck on the rift aspect of Rift heh.. The real "feature" i enjoyed the most from Rift was the soul system.. such a great idea and worked very very well, unless you are the type who loves being locked down into a single role of course

The soul system was a pretty overrated, and not  particularly well-executed system in that game.  It was nice in theory, but Trion did a horrible job of balancing it.  As a result, once you hit endgame, you were forced into...surprise!...a cookie cutter build to max your dps, or make you the most effective tank or healer.  Sound familiar?  And as for PvP...it was BRUTAL.  Every single update brought about huge nerfs to classes, and buffs to other ones so that there was a new FOTM class for PvPing.  

Again...as with most Trion systems...nice idea, bad execution.

I am a fan of Rift. I enjoyed it quite a bit. There are a lot of things I give credit to Trion for. It was the soul system that ultimately drew me into the game. Unfortunately, it was alos the soul system that contributed to my unsubbing. If Trion get's it together and figures out how to make the Soul System work in such a way that anyone can (within reason) litteraally build their own playstyle and as long as said build meets the foundations, picking talents and skills to suit any desire would be absolutely phenominal and would probably rocket the game to the top. In the end, Reb is correct. I was extremely disappointed when I leveld my Necro Lock to 50 and found I had no place in group content. (And I didn't want to have to agree with you)

Originally posted by RebelScum99

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by terrant

I don't see any more arrogance in that post than in pretty much any MMO developer blog I've read for any game since...well ever. Before WoW, people said the same things, but used EQ as the benchmark.

 

As for Rift...Rift's events were a step in the right direction, but horribly flawed. The ONE good thing about that game was a brilliantly inventive class system that I think more games could benefit from.

I agree I dunno why people get so stuck on the rift aspect of Rift heh.. The real "feature" i enjoyed the most from Rift was the soul system.. such a great idea and worked very very well, unless you are the type who loves being locked down into a single role of course

The soul system was a pretty overrated, and not  particularly well-executed system in that game.  It was nice in theory, but Trion did a horrible job of balancing it.  As a result, once you hit endgame, you were forced into...surprise!...a cookie cutter build to max your dps, or make you the most effective tank or healer.  Sound familiar?  And as for PvP...it was BRUTAL.  Every single update brought about huge nerfs to classes, and buffs to other ones so that there was a new FOTM class for PvPing.  

Again...as with most Trion systems...nice idea, bad execution.

I'll agree the fact that a few cookie-cutter builds were the endgame was...disappointing. But even still the ideas!

• A DPS mage that heals
• A plate warrior that is pet-based
• A plate warrior that is all about buffs/debuffs
• Rogues that tank through evasion and ridiculous mobility!
• Rogues that attack from range by throwing bombs at people
• Melee dps clerics

After read 17 pages of this thread, I come to the conclusions bellow:

1- there are people that don't played BWE: they have no idea if GW2 will deliver the promises or not, they have no idea how DE work or how the "no holy trinity" classes work, they just feel the game will not deliver the promises and they think that "feeling" is a rational opinion...

2- there are people that played BWE: they have a solid notion that GW2 is delivering the promises they made, at least they played it, sadly group 1 call it hype because they have no idea what they are talking about... aparently ignorance is bliss...

3- Christopher Lye is right... devs need stop to make WoW clones, like Rift and SWTOR...

From what I saw at BWE and Stress Test, GW2 is the game that WAR promised us.... and that is a big thing.

See you all next BWE, I want try a new guardian build... and if asura race is open, maybe an engineer...

I have never see a dynamic event that didnt get boring or repetative after a while, even the good ones.  Excpet in anarchy online because they dropped a ton of aliens most people died, and the loot was epic..and the event wasnt common and you had no choice as to when and where it occured.

Dynamic events seem just another way to quest, i would not hold them as game changers really, nor would i compare them to rifts, which were epic and awesome untill a few weeks in then ignored and avoided.

I think the real test of this game is going to be endgame and the content leading up to endgame.  WAR failed in this aspect, the lead up to level cap was boring, the pvp was actually avoided in open world as to grind renown...endgame itself was just as dissapointing for the most part.

Ive seen over and over again that endgame starts at level 1...which leads me to believe a lot of people who are going to race to endgame are going to find nothing to specific that stands out.

Other than pve instances what is specific to endgame pvp?  Whats the epic fun event that everyones going to rush to then play for months on end?

Ive seen endgame kill many games hopes of continual growth, especially since the instinct these days is to rush there as fast as possible.

---

Originally posted by Crunchy221
Ive seen over and over again that endgame starts at level 1...which leads me to believe a lot of people who are going to race to endgame are going to find nothing to specific that stands out.

Other than pve instances what is specific to endgame pvp?  Whats the epic fun event that everyones going to rush to then play for months on end?

Ive seen endgame kill many games hopes of continual growth, especially since the instinct these days is to rush there as fast as possible.

---

Structured PvP can be done at level 1 as a level 80 in the best gear in the game. Structured player vs player is actually player vs player from the very beginning and not gear vs gear.

WvW can be done at level 1 as a level 80 but your skills and gear follow you. There's a lot more room to improve here allowing your time investment in unlocking skills and collecting gear to matter. This is okay because in WvW numbers and siege weapons play a larger role. Again, you can jump right into WvW from the start without needing to grind for months before being allowed to experience end game content.

With the exception of dungeons that don't start until 30, PvE is what it is. You'll be able to do the same things when you're 80 without the worry of grey quests and grey mobs making the majority of the world useless to you. It's highly unlikely that you'll see all 1500 dynamic events as you level, so there will still be new things to see in old areas and ANet plans to add new DEs as time goes on.

If you don't like fair and balanced structured PvP or large scale siege warfare and you don't like exploring (which, btw.. it's hard to explain just how large, detailed and truly explorable GW2 is), questing, participating in dynamic events to help change the flow of the game world, crafting, playing the Auction House or cooperating with other players to help achieve common goals then you're not going to like GW2... but you can do all of that and more right from the start. There's no reason to rush to level 80. GW2 is what it is right from the very beginning... aside from the 5 man dungeons.

GW2 doesn't have raids. GW2 has 5 man dungeons that have multiple play modes and are effected by dynamic events. But unlike other games, the rest of the game doesn't get discarded as you level. You aren't left with a bunch of 5 man dungeons to grind out and nothing else to do. The rest of the game world will still matter when you hit 80.

There is no single "epic" end game event to rush to and grind for months. GW2 doesn't shepherd players into any single end game activity for the most rewards or best loot. Players will be able to do as much or as little of what they want as they want. If you end up spending your time doing things that you don't want to do then you've got nobody to blame but yourself.

GW2 isn't the kind of game that you plan your real life around. You won't have to give out your cell phone number so you can be contacted if you don't show up for raid night or miss your Mom's birthday because your guild is on boss 6/8 of the current reskinned raid encounter and your guild really needs your extra heals to get those world firsts.

If you can't find something fun to do with all of the options given and are looking for that "hardcore" raid scene to inflate a diminishing feeling of self worth then you really shouldn't consider buying this game because it won't fulfill your desire to feel needed... unless, maybe, you get into some hardcore esport guild and do structured pvp like it's a job.

If they are excited and think their game is one of the freshest breaths of air in the industry and are very proud of it thats fine and great.  I dont get the feeling they are just talking to do it.  They seem proud, excited, and more than that, capable.  If they aren't excited about their project why should I be? 

Furthermore, why would Tera even be brought into this?  I cant figure out where the OP is coming from as far as a logical standpoint is concerned.  I think this is just a Tera is just as innovative as GW2 or even better than GW2 thread.  Thats all I can figure.  And he darn well wants the developers of GW2 to admit that. 

Furthermore if he's so pleased at Tera why did he bother even looking at GW2 news?  Is he just trying to find something to gripe about?  Because thats all I can figure too. 

I dont know what kind of innovation Tera really has, and I certainly dont think its trying anything that drastically different than GW2.  To be fair I will say one thing, Tera looks AMAZINGLY BEAUTIFUL.   I mean....it looks wonderful graphically.  I will give you Tera fans that because its just plain true.  But other than that I dont know what it has over GW2.  I kind of hate to compare the two anyways right now because GW2 isnt even out yet nor have I played Tera. 

Anyways I'll call the GW2 devs arrogant once they release the game, refuse to acknowledge problems, and do things the players are going to absolutely hate with a passion without regard to what players really want.  Thats arrogance.  Just talking about the innovation in their game and their attempt to change the genre is probably natural.  Since that is part of their objective. 

Heck you could get that from the Design Manefesto that came out how many long months ago?   Not sure why this is such a suprise to hear now.  I just dont get the OP.  Maybe its just me. 

Originally posted by Puremallace

Originally posted by Naqaj

First, notice how he says 'companies' as in plural?

Second, Rift? Seriously? 

I am sorry if GW2 fans are starting to sound like WoW fans with outrageous claims about your game inventing this and that. According to some of the post I have seen GW2 has invented RvR, dynamic eents, level scaling, and public quest. Oh also add in action combat.

 

You guys do realize you are going to be held to a standard that Rift and other games have set right? TOR devs played this same game before it launched and we all saw what happened.

 

STOP ACTING like there will be the same qq that there is in every mmo launch and release since ever.

. ZOMG no x-server LFG I cannot find a group!!!

. ZOMG why no addons the UI sucksssss

. Why can't I customize x feature

. Where are the mounts I  hate running QQ!!!

. [insert class here] is OP, nerf them now or I quit

. This roll over server crap sucks I want to be on the same server as my guild this sucks!!!! QQ

What a pointless rant 

 moar

I think some people have misconception that hype kills games. Hype does not kill games, bad games kill games.

hehehe RIFT

I will admit that Rift did have a half asses dynamic event system but everything else about it was pretty much copy paste from any one of a dozen MMOs before.

Some of the things that makes GW2 so much better IS

1) No holy trenady

2)Action combat in which a players servival is totaly in his/her hands

3) Awesome dynamic events.

4) Features galore...like a great market system, clan management, clan perks

I've only followed GW2 for a short time but I honestly think Arenanet has a right to strut their stuff. The only other game that does better is Eve.

Originally posted by coughee

Originally posted by Maephisto

Originally posted by DarkPony

Well, at least he didn't say "paradigm shift". That accounts for something.

 

Dark Pony ..... this is what I think of your witty, "im sitting on the fence" comments.

[mod edit]

 

It's getting old.

haha - you sir, have made my day.

I live to serve.  You're welcome.

Originally posted by Puremallace

 

The massive balls this guy has to say this crap and just pretend like Rift never happened is just amazing to me. Are devs just inside a little box where nothing gets in that is happening around them? Can ArenaNET please release this game already so that it can stop riding the hype train?

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

Rift has less than 250k subs. Which currently allows it to be in a tie with LOTR and 200k less than EVE. I would not use it as the  example of why to clone WOW. Rather a cautionary tale. Another fact about Rift is the 200k drop in less than a year. You will not have much luck holding GW2 to the Rift Standard. 

Doomsayers ... they're at it again ...

Nothing is arrogant in saying publicly what a lot of gamers do think. MMO genre IS stagnant, and GW2 is heading towards avoiding that stagnation by design, it would be completely naive or dellusive to think the opposite.

And LOL, are some people really thinking Rift did something new ? Really ?? This game was a copy paste of WoW from day one in every aspect : talents, classes, marketing (even trolling WoW shamelessly in their ads), dungeon bosses, raid progression ... If there are people defending Rift as the innovator of the last 5 years, it's pretty revealing how stagnant the genre has been.

Originally posted by Puremallace

Source: http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/21/arenanet-guild-wars-2-a-reaction-to-sluggish-mmo-design/

Do you believe that the MMO genre has been stuck in a rut over the past few years? So does Christopher Lye, the global brand director for ArenaNet, who publicly denounced the post-World of Warcraft trend in the industry as stagnant.

In an interview with Gamasutra, Lye stated that Guild Wars 2 is walking the walk when it comes to genuinely challenging the status quo in the industry. "Honestly, I think the problem is that there's been a lack of change in MMO design and that Guild Wars 2 is a reaction to that," he said. "People will call this risky, but we think it's riskier just to churn out the same MMO that everyone has played before."

Lye pointed to Guild Wars 2's scaling dynamic event system and its action combat as examples as to how ArenaNet is forging its own path. Observing that player consumption of content is "virtually insatiable," Lye said that the team has developed tools to allow it to implement changes and additions to dynamic events in hours, not weeks.

Is this industry stagnation coming to an end? Lye says yes: "We're finally seeing a point where companies realize that they're not going to create the next great MMO by just copying what's come before."

 

 

The massive balls this guy has to say this crap and just pretend like Rift never happened is just amazing to me. Are devs just inside a little box where nothing gets in that is happening around them? Can ArenaNET please release this game already so that it can stop riding the hype train?

Actually he has a point when it comes to dynamic events and for those that still think that the Hearts on the map are the dynamic events you are plain wrong.

With that said, Rifts only unique feature were the skill system that was a mix of other older mmos skill systems mixed together.

The Rifts themselves were just a bunch of mobs spawning in certain locations and attacking people around them or "invading" some trading spots or villages/towns.

Many of the over 300+ mmos I tested, many old and newer mmos had their own unique features, most of these are overlooked because they are not getting enough exposure and advertisement that makes them well known to the mmo players.

Some of them also unfortunately because they are handled THAT badly by their developers so that people are dropping out left and right the whole time.

Through this, some of them just "die away" pretty fast or after only a year or so while others are still there for many years, having their small communities keeping them alive for a very long time.

WoW was one of the less innovative mmos ever and some others that tried to walk on the same path were exactly the same.

GW1 among a few other more known mmos was one of the most innovative games in the industry alone through its storytelling, skill and battle systems among other things.

GW2 is currently indeed breaking the mold of the "good old, rinse and repeat the same systems to create a new mmo" habit and in my opinion it is a good thing.

So I don't see anything wrong with what he said in this interview.

All I see is, that he is proud to be able to be a part of the developers team that created a mmo that indeed does things differently than many other mmos out there.

Rift? Another poorly quality WoW clone, nothing more. The supposed "dynamic events" of Rift are simply another form of mob spawner, and once the rift is over, the world is exactly like it was before. There's nothing dynamic in Rift. The combat is sluggish and slow, the talent tree system which is supposed to give ultimate freedom ends leading to a few viable cookie cutter specs, the world is small, cramped and linear and the cities are lifeless and just don't look like cities where citizen would live but more like military camps.

Rift is an excellent example of a game that was overhyped (you're not in azeroth anymore? ROFL...).

Originally posted by Crunchy221

I have never see a dynamic event that didnt get boring or repetative after a while, even the good ones.  Excpet in anarchy online because they dropped a ton of aliens most people died, and the loot was epic..and the event wasnt common and you had no choice as to when and where it occured.

Dynamic events seem just another way to quest, i would not hold them as game changers really, nor would i compare them to rifts, which were epic and awesome untill a few weeks in then ignored and avoided.

 

 

I don't think you'll be seeing the same DEs as often as you did in WAR & Rift unless you try to. The amount already available in the low levels alone is insanely impressive compared to what Rift & War offered.

I disagree that the addition of loot can make a repetative act less boring. It'll make it tolerable for those that really want that reward, but if it's not fun it's not fun, with or without a reward. I suspect that's why traditional gear grind raids were so widely accepted though - people over looked the repetative simon-says-gimmicks because they liked the loot rather than the content. Same with traditional linear quest hub grinds, take loot out of either scenario and I bet people being honest would admit they would no longer bother running errands.

Which is a good sign for GW2, the content is clearly enjoyed by a crap ton of people that know there's no epic loot waiting at the end. I'm sure many enjoying GW2 have seen WAR & Rifts attempts at dynamic content and can say from first hand experience there's a pretty glaring difference in quality and level of success in terms of implementation.

Also, I'd investigate GW2 events a bit more if you've come to these conclusions, make sure you're not confusing DEs with hearts. My thief took part in events that my guardian and ranger had never seen, in the same area a few hours apart, after I'd thought I'd learned what to expect from an area. That's huge, and not immediately apparent as there's initially no basis for comparison. Clearly there's already a wide variety of events and branches available to keep the experience pretty fresh, and with them dropping new ones in as the game evolves the amount and variety will only increase.

I'm not disagreeing that events you see 10 times over would get repetative, I just think the chance of repeating the same DE 10 times over is pretty slim outside of a scenario in which we're quickly starting new characters in the same area. I never repeated DEs on any of my characters unless I went out of my way to hunt them down.

Anyway, I do agree that I don't see DEs directly as the game changer, they are directly related to the game changer for me though, and that's the deletion of my most despised MMO crutch - the linear task hub errand running grind we've seen copy & pasted since 2004 in most MMOs. 

Edit (That was a bit wordy for what I was trying to say): The DEs themselves aren't exactly the game changer, the real difference is in that previous MMOs which made use of dynamic content *still* relied on traditional crappy linear quest hub grinding as the primary form of content while GW2 has done away with that.

Originally posted by Valkaern

I don't think you'll be seeing the same DEs as often as you did in WAR & Rift unless you try to. The amount already available in the low levels alone is insanely impressive compared to what Rift & War offered.

[...]

I'm not disagreeing that events you see 10 times over would get repetative, I just think the chance of repeating the same DE 10 times over is pretty slim outside of a scenario in which we're quickly starting new characters in the same area. I never repeated DEs on any of my characters unless I went out of my way to hunt them down.

It is rather easy to see DEs repeat themselves, if you just stay a little longer in the same zone, or the same area within a zone. You'd have to do that intentionally though, as the progression within a zone tends to lead you on towards the next area.

The interesting part is that even the same event can turn out very differently if the numbers of participating players changes a lot.

Originally posted by vee41

I think some people have misconception that hype kills games. Hype does not kill games, bad games kill games.

^ times a million! hype can set you up for bigger dissapointment but in the end bad overall design kills games not hype.

Don't make any decision for or against any game based off of the comments from this site.

Edit: Or any post by Puremallace.

You can summarize marketing for MMORPGs in three ways:

- Games that copy WoW and aren't afraid.

- Games that pretend they are different to attract people who dislike the above.

- Games that are legitamately innovative mmorpgs.

Guilds Wars 2 is the middle one. It's 'innovative' and 'different' but it's all more of this streamlined, instanced, fast travel bullshit that every game seems to need to have. That kind of stuff isn't a player-driven MMO world, we're going backwards with releases yet again. It's the same sheep supporting this stuff, just the 'innovative and different' kind of sheep. Same as the players who love World of Warcraft, just these guys are more entitled. Every interview I've seen with the devs of Guild Wars 2 told me nothing and just fed me more marketing, and then I see a beta with some of the worst performance I've ever seen. (Rivaling AoC beta)

The legitamately innovative ones, that are pushing technology and bringing 'massive' back to the genre, are often undersupported and die very quickly, the truth is that innovation is not what sells games. It takes good marketing and that's it. Guild Wars 2 is the biggest hype right now, and after beta it's just more of the same. They just refined public quests and rifts and called it a day. You are still just killing X of something all day long, this time 'innovation' is removing all of the stuff that makes raid encounters bearable. The biggest deal I see with Guild Wars 2 is the instanced arena style PVP, but I have HoN and Dota 2 for that, so I again don't see the selling factor here. Especially with it being essentially a F2P mmo they have convinced people to cover box cost for.