Originally posted by ShardWarrior

 

It is possible that the EU law would apply here as well.  Cryptic would have to block access to any country in the European Union, which I would imagine is a significant chunk of income for them.  Is that worth it?

 

Even if STO owners will think that it is worth not having game avabile in some country or in whole EU - for all I care they and all games with similar lockboxes things can just get banned and not be avabile in my country.

I can live without them.

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Zekiah

I hope they get sued, they can go choke on a bankruptcy for all I care. The gambling scam they're pushing on players is pathetic.

 

Not that I support or like what Cryptic are doing here, but MMORPGs have been about gambling for years... a fruit machine where the currency is time.

Now they have decided they don't want your time, they want your cash.

Play less, spend more... yep, the modern MMORPG working exactly as intended.

Yeah but they crossed the greed line into scam territory. Not only did they create a gambling scheme with absolutely horrible odds but they also refuse to post the odds of winning.

It's borderline criminal, and perhaps it is in many countries. Whatever the case may be, they deserve to suck on a bankruptcy being the jack wagon thugs they are.

Originally posted by Tyrranosaur

13 posts before Godwin's Law kicked in....is that a record?

 

LOL!  If yes, do I win a prize?

I would agree Cryptic has gotten (much) worse since the purchase by PWE.  IMO Cryptic went downhill when NC Soft bought out their half of the City of Heroes IP.  The real talented folk Cryptic had at the time (wisely) left to form what is today Paragon Studios.

Cryptic has been a joke ever since.

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

Originally posted by Tyrranosaur

13 posts before Godwin's Law kicked in....is that a record?

 

LOL!  If yes, do I win a prize?

 

I would agree Cryptic has gotten (much) worse since the purchase by PWE.  IMO Cryptic went downhill when NC Soft bought out their half of the City of Heroes IP.  The real talented folk Cryptic had at the time (wisely) left to form what is today Paragon Studios.

Cryptic has been a joke ever since.

 

  Truth be told this is kind a concern on my part as well.  I am turning the other cheek though and I actually am looking foward to Neverwinter...i just hope it doesnt..well you know...i hope its more like CoX and less like STO (though this is an unfair comparison as I havnt played STO in years..though I downloaded it when it went F2P..jsut never played it)

The problem here is Danish law not cryptic. Governments, especially socialist governments, try and control all aspects of people's lives and this is where we're all headed.

---

Originally posted by JayBirdz
I've been patiently waiting for the  U.S. legal system to take notice of games using these systems.  Companies can manipulate the percentages of winning on the fly.   Raise them to generate excitement in the community, then set them to basically zero.  Even better a script can do this.  If a person has played a game which uses these systems they've seen it time after time.

Player1: Did you know player A got 2 yesterday off of 20 boxes!!!

Player2: Ya! I heard PlayerB got 2 from 15 !

Player3: I think it's time for me to try my luck.

Sometime later:

Player1: Dam...  I heard PlayerB, PlayerC, PlayerD all bought 40 each and not a one of them won this time.

Player2: I know right.... :( I guess PlayerE got lucky with his 1 win from 60 :S

Player1: I so want <such and such>, but I don't feel like getting burned.. 

ect.... ect... ect....

 

The whole appeal to using these systems.

1: Small amount of resources to create items.

2. Zero upkeep until it's time to freshen up the system a year + later. 

3. A script can handle the percentages so that the server does not become over saturated to quickly. 

4. Profit.

 

 

---

Originally posted by lizardbones


I'm not a big fan of random things in games. I especially don't like it when you spend real money on it.

 

Same here.  These cheapen the whole experience for me personally.  It is kind of sad to see MMO developers moving in this direction. 

Originally posted by KingGator

The problem here is Danish law not cryptic. Governments, especially socialist governments, try and control all aspects of people's lives and this is where we're all headed.

Please...leave the political rhetoric in the trash where it belongs...gambling has always been controlled in non-socialist nations as much as socialist nations and always will be thanks to rhetoric, the type of government has nothing to do with it. Hell in fact in some cases its the exact opposite. In Russia gambling was 100% LEGAL everywhere until recently...now its only legal in 4 areas compares to how many places in the freedom loving democracy of the USA? Oh yeah...toss the rhetoric out.

Back on topic. They wont care about losing a nation because as with other games with such offers like Atlantica Online...they sell like mad and bring in a ton of money.

I am considering dropping LotRO to play this.  (No trolling please as to either game.)   However, I have no idea what the problem is with lock boxes since I have no idea what a lock box is.  So, what is a lock box?

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

---

Originally posted by JayBirdz
I've been patiently waiting for the  U.S. legal system to take notice of games using these systems.  Companies can manipulate the percentages of winning on the fly.   Raise them to generate excitement in the community, then set them to basically zero.  Even better a script can do this.  If a person has played a game which uses these systems they've seen it time after time.

 

Player1: Did you know player A got 2 yesterday off of 20 boxes!!!

Player2: Ya! I heard PlayerB got 2 from 15 !

Player3: I think it's time for me to try my luck.

Sometime later:

Player1: Dam...  I heard PlayerB, PlayerC, PlayerD all bought 40 each and not a one of them won this time.

Player2: I know right.... :( I guess PlayerE got lucky with his 1 win from 60 :S

Player1: I so want , but I don't feel like getting burned.. 

ect.... ect... ect....

 

The whole appeal to using these systems.

1: Small amount of resources to create items.

2. Zero upkeep until it's time to freshen up the system a year + later. 

3. A script can handle the percentages so that the server does not become over saturated to quickly. 

4. Profit.

 

 

---

You've just described both the behavior of a random system and a non-random system. It would be a lot easier to just set a fairly low % chance to drop, and people will see patterns like the above described pattern and then go buy a bunch of stuff. Cryptic doesn't have to fool people into doing it, they do it to themselves. That's why Casinos make money...people think they see patterns in randomness and spend all their money on it.

I'm not a big fan of random things in games. I especially don't like it when you spend real money on it. The only thing you can be sure of is that you're likely to lose money or time when you play with the RNG.

 

Problems with your points.. 

1.Casino's are regulated for a reason. 

   1a. Are the cash shops who use these systems?

2.The second problem with your statement is that these are games targeted at younger audiences just as much as adults.

3. Random chance: Some of the losses can definitely be attributed to just bad dice rolls.  Though even then the availability of those items would build up after a year+.  Yet the top rewards rarely ever do. They remain elusive as if they were still brand new.  That is, until a newer shiny takes it's place and developers / publishers stop toying with that older items percentages.

Top all that off with the revenue these systems generate verses the costs of making that one item.  Having one guy or a script change the numbers as needed to prevent over saturation.  Yeah.. you convinced me.  A company with a cash shop selling items through a system like this would never do such a thing like manipulate the numbers.  Their morals would prevent them from doing such a thing.

Originally posted by Skooma2

I am considering dropping LotRO to play this.  (No trolling please as to either game.)   However, I have no idea what the problem is with lock boxes since I have no idea what a lock box is.  So, what is a lock box?

Basically, you buy a box that *might* have an item in it.

Originally posted by eyeswideopen

Originally posted by Skooma2

I am considering dropping LotRO to play this.  (No trolling please as to either game.)   However, I have no idea what the problem is with lock boxes since I have no idea what a lock box is.  So, what is a lock box?

Basically, you buy a box that *might* have an item in it.

 

Actually, it's a box that drops from a mob and you buy a key to open it for the chance at an item.  The thing is they drop so often that they force you to either buy more space in your inventory/bank to store them or you delete them . The keys to open them can be a bit pricey.

Originally posted by Tyrranosaur

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

Originally posted by apocoluster

  I do see it a a scam, but just a little one and being entirely blown out of proportion

If my memory is right, Prime Minister Chamberlain said something similar about Germany invading Poland in 1933.   "It was only a "little" invasion...  "  

 

Conjecture aside, complacency over the "little" things is what can lead to the whole MMO market getting polluted with junk like these lockboxes.    Just my 2 cents.

13 posts before Godwin's Law kicked in....is that a record?

 

(Also, I think you meant 1939)

 

But yeah, much as I enjoyed Champions Online, I've since abandoned Cryptic entirely. They had enough problems on their own, but just when they looked like they were starting to turn around (CO F2P was actually pretty decent for a bit), becoming part of Perfect World seems to have brought the evil out in droves.

Not calling YOU a fanboy here, but it's funny that when Atari still owned Cryptic, all the fanboys blamed Atari for every marketing/dev/PR disaster, and every other Cryptic failure.  Now, PWE owns Cryptic, and now all Cryptic's fails are on PWE.  I think the saying "the only constant in all your failed relationships is you" applies here.  I can't wait to see how Cryptic destroys yet another IP with Neverwinter. 

I'd bet the vast majority of STO's players live in NA.  As long as the USA doesn't crack down on this gambling scam, Cryptic will throw the rest of the world under the bus as long as their main cash cow continues giving up the milk.  Even if the US government doesn't step in, odds are some cash desperate states like California will look into ways to get their hands in this cookie jar.

I hate to admit it, but they got 50-70 bucks outa me. 50-70 trys and dident get either ship, Fudge these developers. This is retarted, No I am for buying them..... Worse is at 1.3M each, I coulda sold the keys and Bought the darn ship.

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by KingGator

The problem here is Danish law not cryptic. Governments, especially socialist governments, try and control all aspects of people's lives and this is where we're all headed.

Please...leave the political rhetoric in the trash where it belongs...gambling has always been controlled in non-socialist nations as much as socialist nations and always will be thanks to rhetoric, the type of government has nothing to do with it. Hell in fact in some cases its the exact opposite. In Russia gambling was 100% LEGAL everywhere until recently...now its only legal in 4 areas compares to how many places in the freedom loving democracy of the USA? Oh yeah...toss the rhetoric out.

Back on topic. They wont care about losing a nation because as with other games with such offers like Atlantica Online...they sell like mad and bring in a ton of money.

That's where your argument belongs anyways, this isn't proper gambling, its a reward system in cash shop game, that danish law seeks this level of control is an issue with danish law, jesus this isn't like betting the horses(whcih shouldn't be regulated for consenting adults either)  Trust me, Lucky Luciano and co. wouldn't have fought a turf war over item boxs in an mmo. 

And America is a bad example, we're well down the road of socialitrst folly ourselves these days. 

---

Originally posted by JayBirdz

---

Originally posted by lizardbones  

---

Originally posted by JayBirdz I've been patiently waiting for the  U.S. legal system to take notice of games using these systems.  Companies can manipulate the percentages of winning on the fly.   Raise them to generate excitement in the community, then set them to basically zero.  Even better a script can do this.  If a person has played a game which uses these systems they've seen it time after time.   Player1: Did you know player A got 2 yesterday off of 20 boxes!!! Player2: Ya! I heard PlayerB got 2 from 15 ! Player3: I think it's time for me to try my luck. Sometime later: Player1: Dam...  I heard PlayerB, PlayerC, PlayerD all bought 40 each and not a one of them won this time. Player2: I know right.... :( I guess PlayerE got lucky with his 1 win from 60 :S Player1: I so want , but I don't feel like getting burned..  ect.... ect... ect....   The whole appeal to using these systems. 1: Small amount of resources to create items. 2. Zero upkeep until it's time to freshen up the system a year + later.  3. A script can handle the percentages so that the server does not become over saturated to quickly.  4. Profit.    

---

You've just described both the behavior of a random system and a non-random system. It would be a lot easier to just set a fairly low % chance to drop, and people will see patterns like the above described pattern and then go buy a bunch of stuff. Cryptic doesn't have to fool people into doing it, they do it to themselves. That's why Casinos make money...people think they see patterns in randomness and spend all their money on it. I'm not a big fan of random things in games. I especially don't like it when you spend real money on it. The only thing you can be sure of is that you're likely to lose money or time when you play with the RNG.  

---

Problems with your points.. 

1.Casino's are regulated for a reason. 

   1a. Are the cash shops who use these systems?

2.The second problem with your statement is that these are games targeted at younger audiences just as much as adults.

3. Random chance: Some of the losses can definitely be attributed to just bad dice rolls.  Though even then the availability of those items would build up after a year+.  Yet the top rewards rarely ever do. They remain elusive as if they were still brand new.  That is, until a newer shiny takes it's place and developers / publishers stop toying with that older items percentages.

Top all that off with the revenue these systems generate verses the costs of making that one item.  Having one guy or a script change the numbers as needed to prevent over saturation.  Yeah.. you convinced me.  A company with a cash shop selling items through a system like this would never do such a thing like manipulate the numbers.  Their morals would prevent them from doing such a thing.

 

---

Originally posted by lizardbones

The difference between evil Cryptic playing with the numbers and just regular random behavior is indistinguishable to the players.

Why would they bother with mucking about with drop rates, when they could do absolutely nothing and get the exact same results? That's why gambling is such a money maker. The house will always make more money.
 

 

Remember, Cryptic did get caught "inflating" the drop rate via blasting account names as "winners" across the screen that were no longer playing the game, did not exist or never won a ship.  Of course they are mucking with numbers. 

Originally posted by Skooma2

I am considering dropping LotRO to play this.  (No trolling please as to either game.)   However, I have no idea what the problem is with lock boxes since I have no idea what a lock box is.  So, what is a lock box?

If you really like Star Trek you may enjoy STO, but LotRO is a far better game in many ways.  I won't go into detail since that wasn't what you asked about (I play both).

Lock boxes are essentially a lottery system.  Boxes drop often. Each box when paired with a key can give a player a small random chance of winning a shiny new star ship.  Keys are either bough with real money or in-game for a small fotune.  Cryptic was heavily criticized for abusing in-game messaging (forced spam) and giving false hope by greatly exaggerating the number of ship winners.

Originally posted by ShardWarrior

Originally posted by lizardbones

The difference between evil Cryptic playing with the numbers and just regular random behavior is indistinguishable to the players.

Why would they bother with mucking about with drop rates, when they could do absolutely nothing and get the exact same results? That's why gambling is such a money maker. The house will always make more money.
 

 

Remember, Cryptic did get caught "inflating" the drop rate via blasting account names as "winners" across the screen that were no longer playing the game, did not exist or never won a ship.  Of course they are mucking with numbers. 

Do you have a link to them getting caught?  I definitely don't dispute it... just wondering if "caught" was just the threads on the STO forums or there was some sort of actual confession from Cryptic.  I am curious how they spammed the names of players who don't exist.

I've only logged in the last few weeks (months?) to load up DOff missions and log out - and during that paltry 5-minute span I typically will see at least 2-3 spam notices about Ferengi ships being won.  So I was already suspicious about this, because I've seen this tactic used in other non-AAA games.  It suggests a win-rate of about 250 a day, 7500 a month... I'm not sure STO still even has 7500 active players, much less 7500 constantly opening boxes, and I'm sure they didn't project a 100% win rate.  So yeah, the spam was faked, but obviously I can't prove it.

Lizard, I'd guess the reason they inflate it is to make it look like tons of people are winning and all you have to do is open your lockbox, and you can be a winner too!  The "keeping up with the winners" psychology is powerful motivation for some people.  But then guess what, you're on box 12 and still no winner... maybe it's the next one!

At least Vegas has cocktail waitresses.

Originally posted by lizardbones

 

---

Originally posted by JayBirdz

---

Originally posted by lizardbones  

---

Originally posted by JayBirdz I've been patiently waiting for the  U.S. legal system to take notice of games using these systems.  Companies can manipulate the percentages of winning on the fly.   Raise them to generate excitement in the community, then set them to basically zero.  Even better a script can do this.  If a person has played a game which uses these systems they've seen it time after time.   Player1: Did you know player A got 2 yesterday off of 20 boxes!!! Player2: Ya! I heard PlayerB got 2 from 15 ! Player3: I think it's time for me to try my luck. Sometime later: Player1: Dam...  I heard PlayerB, PlayerC, PlayerD all bought 40 each and not a one of them won this time. Player2: I know right.... :( I guess PlayerE got lucky with his 1 win from 60 :S Player1: I so want , but I don't feel like getting burned..  ect.... ect... ect....   The whole appeal to using these systems. 1: Small amount of resources to create items. 2. Zero upkeep until it's time to freshen up the system a year + later.  3. A script can handle the percentages so that the server does not become over saturated to quickly.  4. Profit.    

---

You've just described both the behavior of a random system and a non-random system. It would be a lot easier to just set a fairly low % chance to drop, and people will see patterns like the above described pattern and then go buy a bunch of stuff. Cryptic doesn't have to fool people into doing it, they do it to themselves. That's why Casinos make money...people think they see patterns in randomness and spend all their money on it. I'm not a big fan of random things in games. I especially don't like it when you spend real money on it. The only thing you can be sure of is that you're likely to lose money or time when you play with the RNG.  

---

Problems with your points.. 

 

1.Casino's are regulated for a reason. 

   1a. Are the cash shops who use these systems?

2.The second problem with your statement is that these are games targeted at younger audiences just as much as adults.

3. Random chance: Some of the losses can definitely be attributed to just bad dice rolls.  Though even then the availability of those items would build up after a year+.  Yet the top rewards rarely ever do. They remain elusive as if they were still brand new.  That is, until a newer shiny takes it's place and developers / publishers stop toying with that older items percentages.

Top all that off with the revenue these systems generate verses the costs of making that one item.  Having one guy or a script change the numbers as needed to prevent over saturation.  Yeah.. you convinced me.  A company with a cash shop selling items through a system like this would never do such a thing like manipulate the numbers.  Their morals would prevent them from doing such a thing.

 

---

You have no good data to determine drop rates, other than complaints on the forums, and here. You're assuming that the developers are evil based on anecdotes, when it's far more likely that they are lazy. Everything you've described can be attributed to random drops and incorrect perceptions of what's happening. The difference between evil Cryptic playing with the numbers and just regular random behavior is indistinguishable to the players.

Why would they bother with mucking about with drop rates, when they could do absolutely nothing and get the exact same results? That's why gambling is such a money maker. The house will always make more money. Some of the people win, some of the time, but the longer you play, the more likely you are to run at a loss, not a win. That's just how it works, yet people keep on playing, buying a chance to win.

So, they don't have to do anything, and they'll rake in just as much cash. My money is them being lazy. It's certainly not on one of those drop boxes giving me what I want.

 

  You can't prove that they aren't doing it.  I can't prove that they are.   Keep your faith and I'll keep my reality of the way the world works.  For companies like Cryptic money talks and bullshit walks.   There's no laws preventing them from manipulating the numbers.  

Your first argument comparing these systems to a casino was absurd.

You second doesn't really seem to hold much water either.

Loot drops use a random generator:  The rarest of rare items do in fact become more common after being in game for a year plus.  The top items in  systems such as these lock boxes never do.   They remain as elusive as the day they were introduced to the majority of people.

Cryptic and it's parent company's suits would be flat out stupid to pick a system such as lock boxes and not take complete advantage of said system.

Agree to disagree.