Here is the deal.

I feel that there is lot of lies and misconceptions flying around D3 since launch.

1.People claiming they played D3 while they only played open beta. Which as said many times over is stripped down test version of the game that is not representative of release client in any way.

2.People boasting advantages of T2 and POE while they didnt actually get to play them, or only glanced them briefly

3.People straight down inventing  lies about D3 because they hate Blizzard (with good reasons, but hate the company not the game)

.......

As great fan of Point And click action rpgs. And roguelike games.

Someone who played All 3 diablos , been in POE closed  beta for several months now. And in closed T2 beta for a month.

As someone who did gameplay design for quite sucessful comercial roguelike. And is very interested in gameplay design...

I want to throw a glow to you.

Lets compare , debunk and discuss.

But in gentleman manner.

I will answer any question or concern you have.

Let me just start with debunking funny theory that Torchlight 2 has better graphic than Diablo 3.

For sake of fairness , these are ingame screenshots taken by me:

Diablo 3:

And Torchlight 2:

Game lenght:

This is how long it took me to finish Act 1 with my barbarian.

Playing solo ,exploring maps , doing sidequests and talking with NPCs

9 hours , 20 minutes - at lvl 16

Ok here's one for you. In D2 I spent a lot of time running back and forth over the same ground. D3 seems pretty well laid out as far as having teleports and checkpoints where you needed them. How is T2 in that department?

I'm having fun with a friend, reminds me of the old days playin d2, diff graphics, same ol good time.  That's all i gotta say.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Game lenght:

This is how long it took me to finish Act 1 with my barbarian.

Playing solo ,exploring maps , doing sidequests and talking with NPCs

9 hours , 20 minutes - at lvl 16

 

Just Act 1? That's impressive. It took me longer to finish my first playthrough than anyone else in my Friend's list cause I went everywhere I could find and did everything I could find to do. My first playthrough ran about 19 hours and I was level 32 or 33 when I finished the game on Normal.

Which for the record, would be my only REAL complaint with D3. Being forced to play through the game on easymode to unlock how the game was obviously meant to be played from the start: minimum of Nightmare.

Originally posted by zymurgeist

Ok here's one for you. In D2 I spent a lot of time running back and forth over the same ground. D3 seems pretty well laid out as far as having teleports and checkpoints where you needed them. How is T2 in that department?

Pretty much same

Generally 1 portal per open world area. In T2 its placed close to the entrance to area. While in D3 its hidden towards end of the area.Dungeons generally have portal entrance on higher levels. Provided dungeon is not random spawned.

Originally posted by RJCox

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Game lenght:

This is how long it took me to finish Act 1 with my barbarian.

Playing solo ,exploring maps , doing sidequests and talking with NPCs

9 hours , 20 minutes - at lvl 16

 

Just Act 1? That's impressive. It took me longer to finish my first playthrough than anyone else in my Friend's list cause I went everywhere I could find and did everything I could find to do. My first playthrough ran about 19 hours and I was level 32 or 33 when I finished the game on Normal.

Which for the record, would be my only REAL complaint with D3. Being forced to play through the game on easymode to unlock how the game was obviously meant to be played from the start: minimum of Nightmare.

I really went exploring every inch of the map and uncovered pretty many random dungeons and events.

As for not being able to play the game at difficulty mode of your choosing,

I would like to adress this too.

I have given it some thought. Lets just watch it from design point of view.

Blizzard decided to make Diablo a story heavy game. Making a ritch atmospheric story line an integral part of experience.

On other hand Torchlight also has story - but the story is more there to flavor the random dungeon hack.

So Diablo Story>Hack , Torchlight Hack>Story

This is why Blizz are forcing us to play trough story...

What happens is:

When you play online you can not enjoy the story, you actually  just rush trough the game.

So this is what they did:

Normal you play alone. And the rest of difficulties are done online where nobody even cares about the story anyway.

There is two important things to note - Blizzard designed Diablo3 as online game , solo is just an afterthought.

And The D3 difficulties are actually leveling stages , not actual game difficulties.So you can not just choose to start playing on lvl 60.

..

While I wouldnt really call this a perfect solution. But its the one Blizzard took. And such things are not new. Borderlands also had similar gameplay :1-30 first playtrough , 30-60 second.

---------

Torchlight on other hand has difficulty separated form levels. Its completely different approach.

...

IMHO i would go with T2 on this ;)

I think you're not going to get out of tackling the comparison between the old and busted way of picking skills (skill tree) and the new hotness (D3 skill/rune system). 

Personally, I believed it would afford a high degree of customization before the game came out. After playing it, the new skill system far exceeded my expectations. 

I have made so many different combinations on my monk that I can't even remember them all. I am constantly changing my builds. There are layers to this skill system that are very subtle and you have to figure out for yourself. 

You have so many options that figuring out what goes well together actually provides a lot of depth.  

I don't look up guides or builds on websites. It is sooo much fun to come up with something and try it out, only to see that there is a weakness that needs to be covered in the build. So you make adjustments on the fly and test it out some more. Eventually you figure out exactly what works. 

I am having a bit of a build ADD problem though, as I can't seem to stick to one thing for too long.

Edit: anyway accidentally posted early oops.  But the myth to be debunked is that this system is dumbed down compared to skill trees. Quite the opposite actually. It is deeper than any traditional skill tree I have ever seen. It actually makes you think about your build more. The game doesn't tell you what goes with what you have to figure it out on your own. 

Like I said, before launch I knew it would be better than a skill tree, but I didn't realize how much better it would be. 

In actual use, this thing blows a dumb skill tree out of the water. It's not dumbed down at all. 

Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one?  I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise.  Granted not as close as Path of Exile.  

However, my question is:

Which game has the flashier moves?  You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e?  My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.

Originally posted by Ailingforale

Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one?  I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise.  Granted not as close as Path of Exile.  

However, my question is:

Which game has the flashier moves?  You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e?  My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.

Almost every monster in TF2 explodes in some way while most monsters(that i have seen) in Diablo III just fall down.

That should tell you something.

On the other hand though some skills in Diablo are insanely cool like the monk punches and the demon hunter skills.

So i guess both cover those departments in good ways albeit different ones.

Why do you need to defend it?

Is something wrong with it that needs defending?

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by Ailingforale

Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one?  I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise.  Granted not as close as Path of Exile.  

However, my question is:

Which game has the flashier moves?  You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e?  My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.

Almost every monster in TF2 explodes in some way while most monsters(that i have seen) in Diablo III just fall down.

That should tell you something.

On the other hand though some skills in Diablo are insanely cool like the monk punches and the demon hunter skills.

So i guess both cover those departments in good ways albeit different ones.

This is just what I am talking about - lies and misconceptions.

I am just going to mark it as : False / Debunked

Originally posted by Ailingforale

Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one?  I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise.  Granted not as close as Path of Exile.  

However, my question is:

Which game has the flashier moves?  You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e?  My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.

Great question, and perfectly illustrating how insane was D3 budget.

They wrote about it lately. Take for example Wizard class - it has 25 available skills. And each of these skills can be modified with 5 different runes.

They decided that every skill+rune combination should have its own special animation.

This brough them to 120 unique skill animations per class!

As for combat feeling. Blizzard developed their inhous physic system. Almost every part of scenery. Dungeon or outside can be smashed, often falling and killing monsters around it.

Depending on how powerful you are - monsters are falling,knocked,decapitated, or exploding in sprays of blood.

If you carry elemental weapon, monsters burn are electrified etc... often you can see decapitated body parts still flaming on the map.

Also monsters react to the hits, parry or are moved by its force.

Torchlight2

Lets just say. Run D3 , play it a bit. Than run T2 and you will think something is wrong with T2. The difference is so drastic.

T2 also has exploding monsters and physics. But there is just so much team of 20 people can do. And its certanly not 120 unique skill animations per class ;)

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by Ailingforale

Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one?  I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise.  Granted not as close as Path of Exile.  

However, my question is:

Which game has the flashier moves?  You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e?  My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.

Great question, and perfectly illustrating how insane was D3 budget.

They wrote about it lately. Take for example Wizard class - it has 25 available skills. And each of these skills can be modified with 5 different runes.

They decided that every skill+rune combination should have its own special animation.

This brough them to 120 unique skill animations per class!

 

As for combat feeling. Blizzard developed their inhous physic system. Almost every part of scenery. Dungeon or outside can be smashed, often falling and killing monsters around it.

Depending on how powerful you are - monsters are falling,knocked,decapitated, or exploding in sprays of blood.

If you carry elemental weapon, monsters burn are electrified etc... often you can see decapitated body parts still flaming on the map.

Also monsters react to the hits, parry or are moved by its force.

 

Torchlight2

Lets just say. Run D3 , play it a bit. Than run T2 and you will think something is wrong with T2. The difference is so drastic.

T2 also has exploding monsters and physics. But there is just so much team of 20 people can do. And its certanly not 120 unique skill animations per class ;)

How about some videos?

Originally posted by AdamTM

Why do you need to defend it?

Is something wrong with it that needs defending?

No.

There is simply laughable amount of lies and misconceptions flying around.

Originally posted by dubyahite

I think you're not going to get out of tackling the comparison between the old and busted way of picking skills (skill tree) and the new hotness (D3 skill/rune system). 

 

Personally, I believed it would afford a high degree of customization before the game came out. After playing it, the new skill system far exceeded my expectations. 

 

I have made so many different combinations on my monk that I can't even remember them all. I am constantly changing my builds. There are layers to this skill system that are very subtle and you have to figure out for yourself. 

You have so many options that figuring out what goes well together actually provides a lot of depth.  

I don't look up guides or builds on websites. It is sooo much fun to come up with something and try it out, only to see that there is a weakness that needs to be covered in the build. So you make adjustments on the fly and test it out some more. Eventually you figure out exactly what works. 

I am having a bit of a build ADD problem though, as I can't seem to stick to one thing for too long.

 

Edit: anyway accidentally posted early oops.  But the myth to be debunked is that this system is dumbed down compared to skill trees. Quite the opposite actually. It is deeper than any traditional skill tree I have ever seen. It actually makes you think about your build more. The game doesn't tell you what goes with what you have to figure it out on your own. 

Like I said, before launch I knew it would be better than a skill tree, but I didn't realize how much better it would be. 

In actual use, this thing blows a dumb skill tree out of the water. It's not dumbed down at all. 

I totally agree with this! I do wish they were a bit more specific with identifying how a skill works. For instance, on the barbarian you can get a run for cyclone spin that is called blood funnel. It says grants life from using cyclone on enemies. If you ctrl and hover over it though, it says grants 1% life for each critical hit while cycloning. I felt like that was a bit mis leading. How hard would it be to change hit to crit in the text. But after I figured that out I just stacked crit runes and bam I was a healing machine. There are so many builds and its fun to figure out the weird ways to make skills work together.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by Ailingforale

Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one?  I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise.  Granted not as close as Path of Exile.  

However, my question is:

Which game has the flashier moves?  You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e?  My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.

Almost every monster in TF2 explodes in some way while most monsters(that i have seen) in Diablo III just fall down.

That should tell you something.

On the other hand though some skills in Diablo are insanely cool like the monk punches and the demon hunter skills.

So i guess both cover those departments in good ways albeit different ones.

This is just what I am talking about - lies and misconceptions.

I am just going to mark it as : False / Debunked

which part? if you mean the first one i specifically said "that i have seen"

I just feel that stuff explodes more in torchlight 2 from the very beggining, they explode for everything i do to them

Seriously, i literally ment exploding as in the only thing they do even when just hit by a god gam knucle

He asked for the "extra explosion" so i was just going by what he said.

The few hours ive played my monk (im waiting for my friends to buy it to play more) i didnt saw much difference, im sure it must just be me, pretty sure electrifying atacks and the like should do something different.

Also post videos of the things you debunk not just write a two liner.

Originally posted by AdamTM

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by Ailingforale

Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one?  I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise.  Granted not as close as Path of Exile.  

However, my question is:

Which game has the flashier moves?  You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e?  My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.

Great question, and perfectly illustrating how insane was D3 budget.

They wrote about it lately. Take for example Wizard class - it has 25 available skills. And each of these skills can be modified with 5 different runes.

They decided that every skill+rune combination should have its own special animation.

This brough them to 120 unique skill animations per class!

 

As for combat feeling. Blizzard developed their inhous physic system. Almost every part of scenery. Dungeon or outside can be smashed, often falling and killing monsters around it.

Depending on how powerful you are - monsters are falling,knocked,decapitated, or exploding in sprays of blood.

If you carry elemental weapon, monsters burn are electrified etc... often you can see decapitated body parts still flaming on the map.

Also monsters react to the hits, parry or are moved by its force.

 

Torchlight2

Lets just say. Run D3 , play it a bit. Than run T2 and you will think something is wrong with T2. The difference is so drastic.

T2 also has exploding monsters and physics. But there is just so much team of 20 people can do. And its certanly not 120 unique skill animations per class ;)

How about some videos?

Gladly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEM0kHXgKIg

And bear in mind that it ranks up with your power. Here its from start of the game, but the effects you get on buffed up character with elemental weapons gets pretty insane.

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by Ailingforale

Given the screenshots posted, wouldn't it be more of a art style choice rather than a graphic one?  I know that D3 didn't go for a photo-realistic bit but they were dancing on the precipise.  Granted not as close as Path of Exile.  

However, my question is:

Which game has the flashier moves?  You know, that extra explosion in the fire ball or w/e?  My eye tend to be more entertained by moving objects at times lol.

Almost every monster in TF2 explodes in some way while most monsters(that i have seen) in Diablo III just fall down.

That should tell you something.

On the other hand though some skills in Diablo are insanely cool like the monk punches and the demon hunter skills.

So i guess both cover those departments in good ways albeit different ones.

This is just what I am talking about - lies and misconceptions.

I am just going to mark it as : False / Debunked

which part? if you mean the first one i specifically said "that i have seen"

I just feel that stuff explodes more in torchlight 2 from the very beggining, they explode for everything i do to them

Seriously, i literally ment exploding as in the only thing they do even when just hit by a god gam knucle

He asked for the "extra explosion" so i was just going by what he said.

The few hours ive played my monk (im waiting for my friends to buy it to play more) i didnt saw much difference, im sure it must just be me, pretty sure electrifying atacks and the like should do something different.

Also post videos of the things you debunk not just write a two liner.

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5005008#5005008

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/5005054#5005054