Originally posted by otacu

It's not a issue as of now.

 

In K-Tera they have a kinda p2w cash shop where you can buy cosmetic items and get rewarded with t-cat coins.

And with t-cat coins you buy nice gameplay advantages.

As long as they don't bring the t-cat coins here to the West it's fine.

Not really P2W in Korea but if they were in the NA verison it would be. Because only thing that could be consider P2W is the auto rez and prevent crystal from breaking. In Korea they still boxes to reroll unless crystal to useful ones so crystal is much easier to get thus its more convience than P2W where in NA its super hard to get good crystal. And Koreans don't OWPVP much so auto rez scroll won't really matter that much anways. Crystal protection in NA? its meh kinda bad but its no like the point ot make people run but Auto res? If they put that in I'm forming a mob outside EME HQ with pitch fork and torches.

http://tera-forums.enmasse.com/forums/general-discussion

And so the Moderator starts to lock like Dozens of multiple topics related to the same issue except one, I wonder if they finally get the message that quite a few of us are unhappy with the CashShop or at least certain parts of it.

I paid for the game and I REALLY feel f*cked over by this En Masse shop. There's NO CHANCE in hell I'm going from my trial to recurring.

I might even charge back my money. Stuff like this really pisses me off.

Originally posted by Mike_L

I paid for the game and I REALLY feel f*cked over by this En Masse shop. There's NO CHANCE in hell I'm going from my trial to recurring.

I might even charge back my money. Stuff like this really pisses me off.

Actually if you read the TERMS OF SERVICE when you signed up, who does that?

You would have known they stated they would be implementing a novelty shop before you purchased anything.

Well GameStop or not Enmasse is responsible for the advertising of their game, and I was told the game had high customization even when reading their forums, never did Enmasse actually confirm to me that they would be sticking in a cash shop, I asked them they never said anything.

Even if that could not be complained about I find that there was no official announcement about a Vanity Shop telling me that I would have to pay $9.99 USD per character change, and in their agreement it says something like you agree to the use of the Manual, not that I agree by using the Key which activated my game account so Enmasse really needs to learn how to write an agreement before they send out their retail package.

Anyways quite a few people are angry at Enmasse for the Cash Shop, I just want to be able to freely customize my character without having to constantly pay for each and every single change, and if they can't do it then I am going to find valid reasons and do some research to complain to the BBB & such, and really at this point I am not playing the game anyways so why would I care if they ban my account for complaining it would just show the player base how bad this company really is with management.

Instead of Enmasse just sticking in Vanity shop items they should have asked the community what they wanted first for the major changes like require $9.99 USD fee to customize a character that is a major change, or requirement which is a key feature of the game.

Also the funny thing is I was enver presented a Terms OF Service, I was given a manual that said by using this game I agree to the Manual, not the games Terms OF Service, and I will use that as a LoopHole when I file my complaints they need to get their wording correctly.

It says, and I quote

"Your Use of this manual is governed by the Tera End User License Agreement (EULA) located at http://tera.enmasse.com Your use of this manual constitues your acceptance to the terms of the EULA."

( So from what I understand my use of the manual, not the key I used to activate my game was bound to the agreement, I also did go to that website and I saw no agreement they didn't tell me i had to click some other links to get to it, so therefore they are in the wrong.)

Therefore I never actually agreed to anything period the most they can do is ban my account, however I will make it clear when I file my complaints that I was never presented an agreement or agreed to anything they have no valid signature ;).

Maybe I am just dumb and don't understand their agreement but its their job to make sure the user or buyer can fully read and understand the agreement clearly.

Originally posted by Renoaku

http://tera-forums.enmasse.com/forums/general-discussion

And so the Moderator starts to lock like Dozens of multiple topics related to the same issue except one, I wonder if they finally get the message that quite a few of us are unhappy with the CashShop or at least certain parts of it.

It doesn't really matter it's a small minority.

Please read the article. This is somewhat similair to what Turbine discovered with DDO and later LOTRO:

I'll post it again thanks to Loktofeit:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/33371/GDC_2011_Perfecting_The_FreeToPlay_Battlefield_Heroes.php

Originally posted by Renoaku

http://tera-forums.enmasse.com/forums/general-discussion

And so the Moderator starts to lock like Dozens of multiple topics related to the same issue except one, I wonder if they finally get the message that quite a few of us are unhappy with the CashShop or at least certain parts of it.

If you bother reading most of the post are people who support the premiun shops, and if yo look at the thread that was a petition to remove it has more -1 thand +1 posts.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Renoaku

http://tera-forums.enmasse.com/forums/general-discussion

And so the Moderator starts to lock like Dozens of multiple topics related to the same issue except one, I wonder if they finally get the message that quite a few of us are unhappy with the CashShop or at least certain parts of it.

It doesn't really matter it's a small minority.

Please read the article. This is somewhat similair to what Turbine discovered with DDO and later LOTRO:

I'll post it again thanks to Loktofeit:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/33371/GDC_2011_Perfecting_The_FreeToPlay_Battlefield_Heroes.php

Turbine totally gutted their game with the cash shop.  It's a horrible example of how to run a cash shop game.  Better examples would be Aion, STO, Lineage 2, and even EQ2 is a better cash shop game now.   Turbine went for the short term cash grab, but it hasn't increased their popularity past that initial curiosity phase.  Now that the "Freemium" honeymoon is over it's just a lingerer.

I don't know if this cash shop will be good or bad for the Tera, but I can't see the interest in a cash shop game with a required subscription.  Games with cash shop do have their mechanics balanced around that.  It just seems like double dipping to me.  Same with TSW really.  Looks like a cool game, but the double dip is more than it's worth.

Originally posted by Wakygreek

Originally posted by Otakun

P2P + cash shop = rip off. Whether it's P2W or not. 

 Sorry cannot agree with you here, not sure why a cash shop that is not P2W is a rip off, it is your choice to purchase the item and it in no way gives anyone an advantage. More games are going this route for some additional income, I think its a great idea as long as it doesn't go p2w.

Think through it a bit.  Really really think through it.  Pay 2 Win is just a bullshit propaganda slogan.  It doesn't matter what they sell.  It matters that what they once would have put in the game they are now selling it for extra.

So you're paying a sub for content in a p2p service oriented game where they're not providing you the full service for the sub.  They've totally devalued your subscription.  Now you have to pay more for the full game.  It's a gouge really.

I pay $8.34/mo for RIFT and I get the whole damn game for that and account services at no extra charge.  I also play some F2P games and spend money on those too. But a sub + a cash shop?  It makes no sense.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Teekay

Mythic is a company, it's aim is to make money, let's not be naieve about this. The way they made money was via subs and via expansions. Those expansions did indeed provide you with new more powerful items and yes they made you more competative.

I see you add expansion there. You have rationalized that they are okay.

• An expansion is content not available for the sub fee.
• An expansion is made by diverting resources that your fifteen bucks paid for to create content to sell back to you.
• Expansion content is only available to those who bought the expansion and often not otherwise available to those who did not.

Where's the difference other than one is a package and the other is individual items. Wait... the difference is that expansions often are the definition of pay-to-win.

The only argument that you have presented is that you have rationalized that expansions are okay, supporting it with the irrational statement that they aren't bad because they are bigger than individual purchases.

The difference lies in the sheer amount of content per dollar in an xpack (usually) compared to a seperate cash shop item, if we take wow for example a sparkly pony mount costs 25 dollars.. while an expack costs 40 which contains over 10 mounts a slew of pets not to mention the increased lvl cap new dungeons raids yadayada but even on mounts alone it beats it by far in terms of value per currency.

Originally posted by Renoaku

Well GameStop or not Enmasse is responsible for the advertising of their game, and I was told the game had high customization even when reading their forums, never did Enmasse actually confirm to me that they would be sticking in a cash shop, I asked them they never said anything.

Even if that could not be complained about I find that there was no official announcement about a Vanity Shop telling me that I would have to pay $9.99 USD per character change, and in their agreement it says something like you agree to the use of the Manual, not that I agree by using the Key which activated my game account so Enmasse really needs to learn how to write an agreement before they send out their retail package.

Anyways quite a few people are angry at Enmasse for the Cash Shop, I just want to be able to freely customize my character without having to constantly pay for each and every single change, and if they can't do it then I am going to find valid reasons and do some research to complain to the BBB & such, and really at this point I am not playing the game anyways so why would I care if they ban my account for complaining it would just show the player base how bad this company really is with management.

Instead of Enmasse just sticking in Vanity shop items they should have asked the community what they wanted first for the major changes like require $9.99 USD fee to customize a character that is a major change, or requirement which is a key feature of the game.

Also the funny thing is I was enver presented a Terms OF Service, I was given a manual that said by using this game I agree to the Manual, not the games Terms OF Service, and I will use that as a LoopHole when I file my complaints they need to get their wording correctly.

 

It says, and I quote

"Your Use of this manual is governed by the Tera End User License Agreement (EULA) located at http://tera.enmasse.com Your use of this manual constitues your acceptance to the terms of the EULA."

( So from what I understand my use of the manual, not the key I used to activate my game was bound to the agreement, I also did go to that website and I saw no agreement they didn't tell me i had to click some other links to get to it, so therefore they are in the wrong.)

Therefore I never actually agreed to anything period the most they can do is ban my account, however I will make it clear when I file my complaints that I was never presented an agreement or agreed to anything they have no valid signature ;).

Maybe I am just dumb and don't understand their agreement but its their job to make sure the user or buyer can fully read and understand the agreement clearly.

Careful, you're awfully close to the truth here, or at least this is how your coming off with all of this mock outrage over something so slight.

Let it go, this is a video game, and your complaint is insignifcant.  There are more important causes in the world worth fighting for, this isn't one of them.

What's pathetic is they will likely offer ways to get cosmetic stuff in game  (if there isn't already)....but because it's not the exact thing offered in the store...people will still bitch.

e.g If you could get a Slayer weapon skin that looks just like the mace in the store except it is slightly lighter brown and has a hawkhead instead of a skull...people would still complain because they can't get the exact one in the store unless they pay $9.99.

Oh..well.

Stale thread is stale.

Originally posted by BarCrow

What's pathetic is they will likely offer ways to get cosmetic stuff in game  (if there isn't already)....but because it's not the exact thing offered in the store...people will still bitch.

e.g If you could get a Slayer weapon skin that looks just like the mace in the store except it is slightly lighter brown and has a hawkhead instead of a skull...people would still complain because they can't get the exact one in the store unless they pay $9.99.

Oh..well.

Stale thread is stale.

on GW2 everything that is on shop can be buy with in game gold still you see some people complain about silly things. people are like that, need something to discuss.

and discuss about cosmetic items for me is just....mehh. cosmetics items really? LOOL.

Well, if we want to be honest about cash shops we need to wonder how big a monetary impact the companies that support them tink they'll have on their game. For example:

• I have the feeling that the cosmetic shop will have a substancial impact on TSW, simply because there are no tier of armor etc and the looks is something that you make. So making your character look cool will be a mini game of itself for a lot of gamers.
• Same thing with GW2. The cash shop will be expected to play a substancial role in financing the game beyond the upfront box price. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if both those games eventually sell adventure packs in the way LOTRO is selling its expansion.
• Coming to Tera now, one set of skins seems like a drop in the ocean regarding financing anything in the game. Only thing that it could possibly serve right now is as a tool to gauge the market and whether Tera players would consider buying skins not found in the game.

Seems like indeed Tera EU is following a different path than Tera US regarding selling skins. From their CR:

Greetings,

Thanks for your concern Lionna, but we're alright

We're currently not planning on implementing an item shop, that's why we haven't opened one up like EnMasse. We might offer vanity items and similar in the future, but for now there are no plans regarding this.
Premium Services are a different matter, and they will be introduced in Europe too. We have no specific time planned on when to offer these services, but be assured that we'll tell you once they're available!

Thank you,
Sealath

Found https://forum.tera-europe.com/showthread.php?t=88948&p=1656421&viewfull=1#post1656421

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Vesavius

Exactly.etc....

But "again" there's very little evidence that these extra items would be in the game if it wasn't for these cash shops.

Wasn't in EQ, EQ II, Lord of the Rings, Lineage 2, Age of Conan, Vangaurd, Ryzom, and any number of games that were released.

 

This is kind of a vague argument to make Sov... :/

Why does that line of thinking even matter?

The fact is that it is in game rewards gated off from the player unless they pay extra money. In a sub game that just isn't acceptable to me.

As ever, Play to Achieve > Pay to Achieve.

GW2 is playing it the smartest... they let me fully play to achieve while letting the other guy pay pay pay.

 

*edited for clarity, though enjoyed the read.

I think it's important to note that I'm not dismissive of these concerns.

I get that Sov.

Game companies need to make more money. They just do.  For better or worse game companies need more money and $15 per month isn't cutting it. It's been proven that cash shops work.

Now, honestly, THIS perspective I consider just wrong.

They don't need more money, they want more money. Huge difference.

Subs have a long proven history of being protiable. It's just a proven fact that games can be run on a sub model alone. Look at Aventurine. Hell, SOE existed on and developed multiple games on sub revenue, each costing millions to make.

Subs ARE profitable, they are just not AS profitable. It has been proven that subs work.

And I do not consider extra profit (especially when using such an exploitative hidden cost model as cash shops) a good enough reason to go down this road. Not as a gamer anyhow, not when the long term effects of cash shop game design fundamentally changes the nature of the games we play. As a producer or investor I am sure I would love it.

So the time is now. Because I don't see the argument that "these things should be in game" really carrying any weight other than that's what people are clinging to. I get it. But that's not the reality at present.

The current 'reality' has been created and informed by the very people selling the pure profit model and I don't buy in to it myself.... and as for not debating against it because someone else tells me 'that's how it is'.. well, no.

No amount of peer pressure will change me from a gamer that enjoys play to achieve games into a virtual consumer that enjoys buying my in game rewards in pay to achieve virtual shopping malls.

Like I say though, GW2 have got the model right. They let me play to achieve while letting the shoppers go crazy with their credit cards... they don't gate any of the cash shop content off from me if I am willing to play and earn it, and they don't charge me a sub.

Ideal.

Actually if you can put a blame on GW2, is on how it legitimised the presence of cash shops in modern mmorpgs. While their model may not be as obtrusive as other F2P cash shop games out there, they and their fanbase gave numerous excuses to cash shops, abolished the P2P model despite its numerous pros and paved the market for the triple dippers.

Or would anybody think that a monetary model like TSW is attempting would fly pre GW2 hype storm?

GW2 may influence (when it launches) positively mmorpgs in terms of content and design, but they have irrevocably damaged them in every other aspect.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Actually if you can put a blame on GW2, is on how it legitimised the presence of cash shops in modern mmorpgs.

Cash shops have been legitmised by a concerted effort all across the internet by the sellers of the model for a long time now. I don't think it's fair to try and lay that blame at ANet's door.

Like I say above though, I do prefer their model IF I have to have cash shops in these games... they let me access everything in game by playing and achieving.

Originally posted by Xasapis

Actually if you can put a blame on GW2, is on how it legitimised the presence of cash shops in modern mmorpgs. While their model may not be as obtrusive as other F2P cash shop games out there, they and their fanbase gave numerous excuses to cash shops, abolished the P2P model despite its numerous pros and paved the market for the triple dippers.

Or would anybody think that a monetary model like TSW is attempting would fly pre GW2 hype storm?

GW2 may influence (when it launches) positively mmorpgs in terms of content and design, but they have irrevocably damaged them in every other aspect.

???

There were cash shops in mmorpg way before Gw2. Why do you want to blame Gw2? It's B2P and it's not even a gear based mmorpg so it cannot be p2w anyway.

And Gw1 had a similar cosmetic and convenience cash shop too. 

Originally posted by Xasapis

Well, if we want to be honest about cash shops we need to wonder how big a monetary impact the companies that support them tink they'll have on their game. For example:

• I have the feeling that the cosmetic shop will have a substancial impact on TSW, simply because there are no tier of armor etc and the looks is something that you make. So making your character look cool will be a mini game of itself for a lot of gamers.
• Same thing with GW2. The cash shop will be expected to play a substancial role in financing the game beyond the upfront box price. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if both those games eventually sell adventure packs in the way LOTRO is selling its expansion.
• Coming to Tera now, one set of skins seems like a drop in the ocean regarding financing anything in the game. Only thing that it could possibly serve right now is as a tool to gauge the market and whether Tera players would consider buying skins not found in the game.

In this regard, there are games that will have an active cash shop and games that don't have one. I don't think that the current skin selection qualifies in any shape or form as a cash shop, or in any case is in the same league with LOTRO's or TSW or even GW2 cash shops. That may of course change in the future, but at this point in time, we can safely still say that Tera has no real cash shop.

 

Keep in mind that the items offered are only for the US market. Surprisingly, nothing of the kind is offered in the EU. On the contrary, it seems that Frogster is giving away (promised anyway) a set of skins to all their pre-order and early order customers, while having no single skin sold in their shop. For now at least.

 

A cash shop is a cash shop. The only difference is between a cosmetic and convenience (random exp boosts) cash shop and a cash shop where you can buy real gameplay advantages.

Tsw, Gw2 and US Tera  have the first kind of cash shop.

K-Tera has the second type of cash shop (Selling potions, equip, crystal protection etc.)

Btw a cosmetic cash shop gets huge revenues to a mmorpg. Selling skins is a very good business.

Originally posted by otacu

...

???

There were cash shops in mmorpg way before Gw2. Why do you want to blame Gw2? It's B2P and it's not even a gear based mmorpg so it cannot be p2w anyway.

And Gw1 had a similar cosmetic and convenience cash shop too. 

Keep your unnecessary hate in check.

Hardly a hater. I like the game and plan to play it from day one.

That doesn't change the fact that their fanbase was instrumental in creating the environment where cash shops and triple dippers can thrive. Indeed, games had cash shops before the advent of GW2, however they were sneered by the community as second rate or promoting unbalanced gameplay or just plain offering content outside the normal monetary model. All these changed when the old timers seeing their savior in GW2 gameplay forgoe any sense and advocated any features the game has as gospel, while damning anything that is not there, regardless of it being good or not.

People would like to forget these huge threads about how cash shops are the best thing ever, how they give choice and all the excuses people were making up to justify their presence in their favorite game. Six months ago? Any game with a cash shop was seen as a pariah ... exactly like this thread is trying to make Tera look like. Whether Tera has actually a cash shop is debatable at this point, but the zero tolerance towards cash shops flew out of the window when people were talking about GW2 instead.

Tera should crash and burn because it has a "cash shop", isn't this the point of this thread? Yet the very same people find a thousant excuses to protect their favorite mmorpg from the "haters".

Oh, and Vesavius, I'm not putting the blame on Anet, I'm putting the blame on GW2 apologists. Those people who came into this part of the forum to yell "See, see, Tera has a cash shop too!!! Told you so!!!!"

Do you want to see a similarly herd like behavior? All you need is go and see how Diablo advocates are defending the online only for single player game DRM model.