More reason i stay with Rift...Dev's that actually care.

Originally posted by Sorrow

Originally posted by Phry

Originally posted by JoeyMMO

Originally posted by greyed-out

But how can 1.7 err 1.3 million paying subs not be a significant revenue generator to not make it a priority?

 Those 1.3M include a lot of cancelled subs that were reactivated and given a free month. Just read it, SWTOR is not a top five revenue generator, why is that so hard to understand? He didn't say it wasn't significant, it's top 10, just not top 5.

It's probably not the smartest thing to say publically, but it's no doubt true. Just a bit of realism and you know that TOR isn't as much of a success as they had hoped. It would be foolish to make TOR top priority.

The fact that the game is not reaching revenue targets is a good indication, it might not have been a smart thing for them to say from a PR point of view, but it might be a precursor to more and perhaps worse news, and their just 'priming the guns' so to speak, i think by now everyone has worked out that the 1.3m active subs did not represent actual paying subs, and included a lot, although as yet unknown percentage of 'reactivated' accounts that were given 'extra time' for free on a promotional basis.  What happens next for SW;TOR .. needs to be decisive, and above all, positive, or the game may well decline below the top 10 revenue generating games, let alone the top 5.

Considering in November Conference Call to investors they were touting SWTOR as the next WoW and the cash cow that was going to make them all rich and bleed every penny gamers have, well now they are having to back pedal very carefully for those same investors

And if you think MMO gamers are unforgiving, wait til you see a bunch of pissed off investors demanding a return on their investment.  EAware isn't just taking a beating from this game.  It's going to be awfully tough to get more funding for anything similar in the future from this company.

Originally posted by DanaDark

So a BUSINESSMAN told the truth about a BUSINESS affair... and everyone is up in arms?

Was everyone expecting him to say "Oh yes, we have decided to drop ALL games and just focus on TOR."? Or are people just kind of hurt that perhaps of ALL the games EA is involved in, TOR is not the BE-ALL END-ALL?

Simply because a BUSINESSMAN said he isn't taking out every loan possible, hiring 1,000,000,000 programmers, and dropping everything business related to develope TOR further doesn't mean it is going the way of the Dodo bird.

Biggest initial cost for an MMO is the developement of the main game itself. Once that is completeld, investment can drop rather significantly to simply maintain and update content. Even adding expansions is significantly cheaper. I highly doubt EA will drop 200m on each expansion.

I was excited about TOR. I followed up on it for years before release. All this hype that each of you has mentioned so far has totally and completely been player hype, not perpetuated or created by Bioware/EA. It was the players saying it'd be over two hundred biillion million zillion subs and be the bestest MMO since life developed on Earth. It is the players that have consistantly compared it to WOW (mainly due to the sheer hope someone can take that beast down).

The ONLY problem TOR has in my mind as far as gaming goes, is they made it too quick to go through (Almost every MMO does this now... its what YOU all want). They spent YEARS developing the content you burned through in EVERY possible combination in 5 days. Be real, if they released a FREE expansion once a week, you'd burn through it fast enough to complain about how stale the game is by sunday.

Besides, we must all remember that every game not yet released is better than every game released in every way and will totally destroy every game ever! /sarcasm

Except that isn't what he said.  He said right now, TOR is getting a lot more hype and attention than he feels is warranted.  This isn't the language of their conference call at launch, and their first conference call where they announced 1.7.  This is the trying to carefully walk back expectations, and set people up for even worse news.

Also, the fact EA launched with so many servers, I'd say indicates at least a good 5 million.  I'm guestimating, but seriously, you think they made this many servers for the current population?

This is what we've come to.  It isn't TOR that is the failure, it is us.  We ruined a great game 6 months out.  Truthfully, we wouldn't deserve a good game being given to us by Bioware, would we?

Player hype wasn't behind the largest marketing campaign in the history of MMO gaming.

Originally posted by iceman00

 

Except that isn't what he said.  He said right now, TOR is getting a lot more hype and attention than he feels is warranted.  This isn't the language of their conference call at launch, and their first conference call where they announced 1.7.  This is the trying to carefully walk back expectations, and set people up for even worse news.

Also, the fact EA launched with so many servers, I'd say indicates at least a good 5 million.  I'm guestimating, but seriously, you think they made this many servers for the current population?

This is what we've come to.  It isn't TOR that is the failure, it is us.  We ruined a great game 6 months out.  Truthfully, we wouldn't deserve a good game being given to us by Bioware, would we?

 

Player hype wasn't behind the largest marketing campaign in the history of MMO gaming.

I never said it was never hyped at all. I am saying the players hyped it MUCH MUCH more than the company did.

They have a good amount of subs for an MMO of today.

I point out the linked article is a BUSINESS MAN talking BUSINESS. And I also suggest that a BUSINESS MAN might know more about HIS BUSINESS than we do. But, somehow, you know more than anyone else, including him on the subject.

You lack every single proper tool for determining the viability of server merges. Simply because you feel they should be done does not mean they should. If you can produce a verifiable chart of the number of people in EACH and EVERY area of the game on each and every server at all times, and then also prove that this amount is inadequate for the game balance, then you have something. Until then, its your feelings versus factual evidence.

And you are the one suggesting TOR is a failure. I have articulated quite well the fact it isn't, and the meaning behind a BUSINESSMAN'S statement on the matter. I invite you to show me the articles where this same man, or at least someone of relavant standing, suggests that TOR will forever be their primary source of income and also their forever top selling game.

Largest marketing campaign in MMO history is 100% irrelevent. Completely and utterly. It has absolutely nothing to do with the product itself or the people slated for such product. I also would enjoy sources as to it being the largest MMO marketing campaign in history, as I personally haven't experienced it as such.

Every MMO that has launched since the beginning of MMOs seems to always have threads like these... DOOM AND GLOOM, and "I SAID SO!". I really am amused by it. You can ragequite and post as much negativity as you desire,. It honestly has no impact what so ever on reality.

Originally posted by UNH0LYEV1L

I enjoy playing SWTOR but this article royally pissed me off...

http://tor-talk.com/storm-preparation/

CLIF NOTES: EA/Bioware does not view this game as a top 5 revenue gainer and as such they will be devoting most of their attention elsewhere.

Medal of Honor: 4 million sales roughly

Battlefield 3: Over 10 million sales

SWTOR: 2 million sales

...

SWTOR can still bring in money throughout the life of the game via subscriptions. This means they will still develope for it. The other games have a shelf life. They must have new incarnations of the game with better engines, graphics, etc. They basically must be rebuilt from scratch each time.

From a business perspective, SWTOR is not the main focus of the company. It is not the main income earner of the company. It is just another game of the company.

Additionally, from a developer's perspective (Why yes, since you ask, I AM A DEVELOPER) it is not the most daunting programming task. Expansions and bug fixes and other modifications to it are no where near as a priority as developing a brand new game line that has MASSIVE earning potential.

To the people still playing SWTOR:

To those saying EA is going to pull the plug...

they can't, and they won't. It's not their call, it's a Lucas Arts call, but with that latest press release move, EA looks as if it's trying to force Lucas Arts to make a decision.

Which if I was Lucas, I would weigh heavily, SWG was by far the superior game, and they never gave up on the game, even though they made some apocalyptic decisions....but in defense of SOE (I can't beleive I said that) they never gave up on SWG, it was a good game til the end. I wonder honestly what the math was for 10 years of release and subs of SWG vs SWTOR and vs costs. Pretty sure SWG kicks SWTOR's arse.

SWG had a famous 'probably shouldn't have said that' moment.. 'Don't bring a knife to a gunfight' does come to mind, but...nah this latest press release is maybe the best deathknell causer of all time. Even better than when the AoC lead dev sold all his shares in Funcom after the first month of AoC release....yeah that had 0 ramifications.

But then we did sound warning bells about this waaaaay back when it was announced that EA and Bioware was going to make this game. You know Bioware, the company that has been running DAoC and WAR for the last 3-4years..into the ground. They don't know how to run MMOs, lol....and EA runs POGO, that's it (online gambling, oh, the irony!).

p.s. it's been 6 years? Has Bioware yet finished the DAoC Herald Homepage? something to ponder when you wonder where your bug fixes are, rofl.

I was just going to say that EA will have entered into an agreement with LucasArts to run 'an mmo' for a period of time. They doubtless can cancel but will probably pay LucasArts a termination fee. It will probably be a 2-3 year agreement as well with options for renewal etc.

Will they? Probably not whilst they are breaking even - that is have 500k subs. And the source for the 500k and 1M profitable nothing to write home about is the EA Investor homepage. It is in the conference call notes for February I believe.

However EA as a business expect to earn c. 60% profit so if SWTOR is pulling down the overall profitability then at some point who knows. 

How many subs does SWTOR have?

Good question. 1.3M somethings - they didn't say 'industry standard definition of subscriber' as at the end of April - which is after the start of the free 30 days. Would be an interesting definition I suspect if they tried.

They didn't include an actual number in their end-March Securities filing so no investor fraud!

Originally posted by RajCaj

 

Also, I beg to differ on whether or not EA & investors find this project successful....and a process worth repeating.  They may have made their money back....but you don't stay in business very long by tieing up 200+ million dollars in a 2-3 year project that isn't earning you one red cent till launch....just to break even or ink out a narrow profit margin.  From an investor's standpoint.....think about all the places you could have invested 200+ million dollars and earned a larger return over a shorter amount of time.  It's called opportunity cost.  You FOREFIT the all other opportunities with that 200 mill by sticking it in a several year project in a HIGHLY competitive market.

 

Yes, this is the thing that kids here don't seem to get. From a business point of view SWTOR is, without any doubt, a MASSIVE failure.

Especially so, when you keep in mind the size of the target group, Star Wars fans. The potential this project had only underlines its failure.

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Originally posted by busdriver

From a business point of view SWTOR is, without any doubt, a MASSIVE failure.

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Oh really? Can you elaborate on that one as well as provide some numbers to back your claim up?

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by busdriver

From a business point of view SWTOR is, without any doubt, a MASSIVE failure.

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Oh really? Can you elaborate on that one as well as provide some numbers to back your claim up?

Just using what figures that EA has provided themselves along with the additional statement about it not even being in the top 5 revenue generating games, in their catalogue. on the other hand, can you provide any figures that might refute the claim? because i really doubt anyone can.

SW;TOR is in a bad place, only significant effort on the part of Bioware is going to change that... and thats not something we're currently seeing. If that doesnt change i really don't see any change in the current downward trend happening any time soon.

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Originally posted by Phry

Just using what figures that EA has provided themselves along with the additional statement about it not even being in the top 5 revenue generating games, in their catalogue. on the other hand, can you provide any figures that might refute the claim? because i really doubt anyone can.

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Well, provide the numbers then...should not be difficult.

Also, until you provide them, there is nothing to refute on my end...

It will be interesting to see what the sub numbers are at the end of this month considering the free 30 days should be worn off.  That just leaves the monthly subs and folks like me stupid enough to buy a 6 month sub, and my time does not run out until August because of the 30 days they tacked on.

At the end of August should be the real numbers coming out unless they tack on more free days. After that it is only the die hard folks who are playing because it is a star wars IP.  That coupled with several new games comming out.

I for one and headed down to gamestop to pick up max payne 3.

Love how the na sayers where burned at the stake for calling this game junk..... Oh the irony from the mouth of EA

Welcome to the real world, where MMORPG are not the center of the universe? Unless it behaved like WoW (which is no longer possible), not being in EA's top ten was inevitable. It's profitable. Which means they'll continue development on it. Once it's no longer profitable, they'll axe it.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Phry

Just using what figures that EA has provided themselves along with the additional statement about it not even being in the top 5 revenue generating games, in their catalogue. on the other hand, can you provide any figures that might refute the claim? because i really doubt anyone can.

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Well, provide the numbers then...should not be difficult.

Also, until you provide them, there is nothing to refute on my end...

Well if your saying you don't believe EA's own figures... well i can't say i blame you, they probably are a bit dodgy.. but.. as they are all we have to work with until their next statement.. i really don't see how, short of hacking into their database, how more accurate data could be obtained.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Phry

Just using what figures that EA has provided themselves along with the additional statement about it not even being in the top 5 revenue generating games, in their catalogue. on the other hand, can you provide any figures that might refute the claim? because i really doubt anyone can.

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Well, provide the numbers then...should not be difficult.

Also, until you provide them, there is nothing to refute on my end...

1,7 million box sold, box price $60 of which EA gets about $40 of win (rough estimate). So that's around $70m. 4 months of subs (first was free) with a cost of $15. Average paying subs number... shall we say 1,5 million? That's $90 million, total of $160 million. CE boxes hardly make significant change here.

Now the costs, generally accepted number is $200 million for development, marketing etc. Running costs take... well, quite a bit: wages, servers (180 servers?), more marketing etc. And then there is LA, what is their share? Not a small number, that's damn sure.

With declining sub numbers (D3 and GW2 certainly don't help here), SWTOR is lucky to break even any time soon, nevermind turn a profit.

And when an investor looks the timescale of this project, several years, then financially this looks horrible for any game. For a Star Wars title, an IP known by half the world? Take a wild guess.

A lot of guesstimate here, but I doubt it's a huge leap from reality.

Ok, start refuting.

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Originally posted by Phry

Well if your saying you don't believe EA's own figures...

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I am not saying I do not believe EA numbers, I am asking for numbers you did not provide yet.

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Originally posted by busdriver

1,7 million box sold, box price $60 of which EA gets about $40 of win (rough estimate). So that's around $70m. 4 months of subs (first was free) with a cost of $15. Average paying subs number... shall we say 1,5 million? That's $90 million, total of $160 million. CE boxes hardly make significant change here.

Now the costs, generally accepted number is $200 million for development, marketing etc. Running costs take... well, quite a bit: wages, servers (180 servers?), more marketing etc. And then there is LA, what is their share? Not a small number, that's damn sure.

With declining sub numbers (D3 and GW2 certainly don't help here), SWTOR is lucky to break even any time soon, nevermind turn a profit.

And when an investor looks the timescale of this project, several years, then financially this looks horrible for any game. For a Star Wars title, an IP known by half the world? Take a wild guess.

A lot of guesstimate here, but I doubt it's a huge leap from reality.

Ok, start refuting.

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While it is true I asked for numbers, I did not ask for numbers pulled out of your nose tho...

I haven't played SW:TOR b/c it didn't appeal to me.

However, no gaming community deserves this. My mouth was literally gaping when I read that article. This is the most disgusting thing I've ever read by a publisher regarding their product.

SW:TOR community, you have MY support and my best wishes. Stay strong and don't let a toolbag in a suit stop you from playing what you love.