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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » SWTOR is dead because of arrogant, clueless lead devs

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168 posts found
  SuperDonk

Elite Member

Joined: 6/22/10
Posts: 716

5/15/12 2:53:46 PM#21
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2
Originally posted by RebornDragon
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

"They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

really? i guess you must be new to swtor.the only reason scoundrels/operatives are so gimp now are because they listened to much to there playerbase.QQing about stunlocks is what pretty much made those classes worthless in every area besides healing

 

Stunlocking isn't fun gameplay. A stun here and there for a quick defensive or offensive boost is fine, but being able to chain them so close together is not fun or good combat design.

 

regardless if it isnt fun,thats what a rogue class is suppose to do

 

but i guess the failures they hired in for there pvp team thought differently

 

not that it matters anyway,i doubt all the serious pvpers are even going to stay with swtor regardless.this games pvp just reminds me of world of warcraft,which was a joke

 

 If pvp in WoW is a joke, I wonder what the pvp in SWTOR should be compared to.

I want to be Uncle Owen again.

  CrunkJuice2

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/12
Posts: 584

5/15/12 2:56:32 PM#22
Originally posted by shinkan

bringing up class balance as a reason for SWTOR being dead is just stupid, class balance is only a real issue in pvp games.

 

well im just sayin

 

you would think hiring in the best pvp team.like they originally said they did,they would actually have some sort of clue how to balance right.not roll the dice and look at forums and see which class everyones complaining about today and nerf them

 

 

  sirphobos

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/11
Posts: 608

5/15/12 2:58:31 PM#23
Originally posted by Teilo

If the horse is dead, why do you insist on beating it?

 

Over and over.

 

Seriously, find a game you like and post something positive for a change.

 

  CrunkJuice2

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/12
Posts: 584

5/15/12 3:01:10 PM#24

nevermind

 

 

  donpopuki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 602

5/15/12 3:05:26 PM#25

SWTOR is dead because it's a single player mmo, not because of class balance issues. No server transfers, no world lfg channel, and confusing endgame progession is why SWTOR is dead or dying. I want to play the hardmode flashpoints but it is impossible to put together a group.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

5/15/12 3:06:00 PM#26

Yup. This attitude is something they seem to have cultivated over there.  It's as if they were prepared to be adored, and now that the tables have turned they despise the players.

I think someone got wise and told them not to make any more dev talking head videos. Daniel Erickson talking will now yield x number of unsubs after the concurrent user distortion.

 

I also like how they complain about answering the same questions over and over too. That's a wtf moment for sure. 

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  tokini

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/07
Posts: 345

5/15/12 3:06:30 PM#27
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

"They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

really? i guess you must be new to swtor.the only reason scoundrels/operatives are so gimp now are because they listened to much to there playerbase.QQing about stunlocks is what pretty much made those classes worthless in every area besides healing

 

nonsense, they always said any chanegs were based on their own internal 'metrics' - not player complaints.

 

swtor's initial success was based on the KOTOR and star wars followings. that has died down now.  what we are seeing is what the game can do on its own merits, specifically a 25% sub drop, and likely many more to follow. note game a game like eve, which has steadily grown over years, or WoW, which had initial success, and then huge increases over the years - long after the initial blizzard fanboy/warcraft fan push should have died.

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2438

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

5/15/12 3:11:25 PM#28
Originally posted by AbdullaDoo

To me they've been arrogant and classless for a long time.  I followed Dragon Age's progress for many years, and toward the end when people questioned why certain design choices were made (lack of scabbards, dynamic weather, and day/night cycle, etc.) devs popped up with lazy, rude, "We know better than you what makes a good game" type of responses, while community managers disciplined posters and shut down threads that were critical of certain choices.  EA had bought Bioware in there at some point during DA:O's development.  Perhaps they were influenced by EA's "corporate culture" or because going big time got into their head a little bit.  Who knows.

 

I haven't played either DA game, so perhaps they did get it right, but the attitude is not a thing unique to TOR.  I'm not sure how many of those people worked on TOR, but it seems to me that has become Bioware's identity and that's they type of people they want working for them.  

 

Now they've stepped out of their element with a 100x as many people paying attention.

 

They were really arrogant and ignorant with beta testers too. Always seemed to have the attitude they were the all knowing and testers/customers are stupid and have no clue what they want.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  jacklo

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/09
Posts: 582

5/15/12 3:11:57 PM#29

This game was dying due to lack of content only a month in, regardless of what 1.2 did to it.

Released way too soon, buggy and lacking major features, meant the devs couldn't focus on content and instead are hastily trying to fix what was broken or missing at launch.

They are unable to do transfers, not because of PR embarrassment, but because they still haven't written the code to do it.

Adding the Legacy when they did only made the transfer code that much more difficult to get right, but hey they needed to dangle a carrot in an attempt to stop the bleeding subs.

SWTOR has been totally mis-managed pretty much from conception, when they decided to use a game engine that wasn't out of Alpha status and then butcher it for their needs.

The whole history of SWTOR has been one bad decision after another.

I just can't understand why heads aren't rolling throughout BW / EA.

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

5/15/12 3:17:06 PM#30

It would be a huge story if they fired people. Don't know if they are afraid of that, but I would see it as a positive. The direction is completely fucking wrong, don't keep driving in that same direction.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  odinsrath

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/10
Posts: 839

5/15/12 3:19:57 PM#31

its like this ..

EA + LArts = $$$$ and advertising n swag

BW = looking for game quality and a good product mostly for consoles

EA+LArts+BW = bad idea

why? because 1 word CREAM ...Cash.Rules.Everything.Around.Me  ..but replace Me with Them..EA / LArts could care less..BW is the one i feel bad for..but then again if you sleep with dogs yur bound to get fleas...yet another LArts failure that generated $$

  Nomis278

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/08
Posts: 130

5/15/12 3:22:01 PM#32
Originally posted by Greyhooff

Here it is folks.

Interview with James Ohlen.

The real reason SWTOR is a dead game: arrogant, disconnected developers who have no clue about class balance and how their game is played.

Good players warned them the class balance changes in 1.2 would destroy the game's balance, but they did not listen to all the PTS feedback and went on regardless with nonsensical, drastic changes.

Check out this interview:

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/15/hyperspace-beacon-swtors-james-ohlen-shares-the-formula-behind/

It's obvious they just won't admit lead developers' errors with 1.2 after that update destroyed class balance and killed the game's population.

Note the repeated use of phrases like:

it's extremely unlikely that we'll go "whoops, we went too far" and undo what we've already done. So don't keep asking if that's what you're hoping to hear.

We've actually answered this question publicly several times, but it seems when players don't like the answer, they keep asking hoping it will change.

Basically SWTOR will not improve.

Clueless developers like this won't fix the problems their ignorance, hubris and inexperience have caused.

They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

Flogging a dead horse is the very definition of stupidity, it's all you seem to do - you even have it in your signature!

Talk about missing the point, way to go there Einstein.

Don't think anything else really needs to be said.

  Unlight

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 2586

5/15/12 3:29:16 PM#33

Bioware has become one of the most arrogant and egotistical developers in the industry.  I also have rarely seen a 'AAA' dev become so confrontational with it's playerbase.  You expect the odd slip up here and there from any developer, but for these jerks, it seems to be a matter of policy. 

They've always had this kernel of self-superiority, but it wouldn't get much exposure since they stuck to SP games.  I mean, once a title is out the door and working, that's it.  With an MMO though, where their relationship with their community is an extremely important and ongoing affair, their dismal attitude is almost impossible to mask. 

I'd like to think that EA's disdain for gamers has been rubbing off on Bioware and that the company that brought me Baldur's Gate, weren't always the wretched assholes they've become.  That it wasn't really their fault.  They just fell in with the wrong crowd.

I'd like to think that...

  jacklo

Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/09
Posts: 582

5/15/12 3:31:17 PM#34
Originally posted by odinsrath

its like this ..

EA + LArts = $$$$ and advertising n swag

BW = looking for game quality and a good product mostly for consoles

EA+LArts+BW = bad idea

why? because 1 word CREAM ...Cash.Rules.Everything.Around.Me  ..but replace Me with Them..EA / LArts could care less..BW is the one i feel bad for..but then again if you sleep with dogs yur bound to get fleas...yet another LArts failure that generated $$

The only way this game has made any money at all for BW, EA or LArts, is if they embezzled it from the investors.

I suppose it's kept many in jobs, so for that they may be happy.

Were I an investor, I would be asking serious questions about what went wrong with a surety that was Star Wars.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19286

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

5/15/12 3:36:55 PM#35
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2
Originally posted by RebornDragon
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

"They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

really? i guess you must be new to swtor.the only reason scoundrels/operatives are so gimp now are because they listened to much to there playerbase.QQing about stunlocks is what pretty much made those classes worthless in every area besides healing

 

Stunlocking isn't fun gameplay. A stun here and there for a quick defensive or offensive boost is fine, but being able to chain them so close together is not fun or good combat design.

 

regardless if it isnt fun,thats what a rogue class is suppose to do

 

but i guess the failures they hired in for there pvp team thought differently

 

not that it matters anyway,i doubt all the serious pvpers are even going to stay with swtor regardless.this games pvp just reminds me of world of warcraft,which was a joke

 

Actually, there are alternatives, don't assume WOW's model is the only (or best) one

In DAOC steathers were completely different in design, they  did not stun lock you, they hit you with massive burst damage early on and it was a race to the finish to see if they could kill their opponent before they healed up or out lasted them in damage before the end.

I recall playing an Infiltrator and I'd hit the target with a big backstab using poison daggers to boost the dps with dots, then switching daggers to apply more poisons and trying to get the quick kill.

Against sitting cloth casters this was not such a challenge, but against a tank, was near impossible except for the very skilled (or if you hit him before he was able to regen his full health (which actually took a minute or two based on downtime mechanics that title had then)

Back to the article, the quotes in the OP aren't nearly so inflammatory if not taken out of context.  In reading the whole article he doesn't come off nearly so arrogant and it does sound like they actually put quite a bit of thought into it.

Where my soul withers is listening to the gear / gear stats focus of the PVP design a la WOW, that's another area DAOC differed and I don't care for the trend of differing gear sets for PVP vs PVE and having to collect both, just a pain in the arse IMO.

 

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  eyeswideopen

Tipster

Joined: 5/24/09
Posts: 2503

5/15/12 3:41:00 PM#36
Originally posted by Sorrow
Originally posted by AbdullaDoo

To me they've been arrogant and classless for a long time.  I followed Dragon Age's progress for many years, and toward the end when people questioned why certain design choices were made (lack of scabbards, dynamic weather, and day/night cycle, etc.) devs popped up with lazy, rude, "We know better than you what makes a good game" type of responses, while community managers disciplined posters and shut down threads that were critical of certain choices.  EA had bought Bioware in there at some point during DA:O's development.  Perhaps they were influenced by EA's "corporate culture" or because going big time got into their head a little bit.  Who knows.

 

I haven't played either DA game, so perhaps they did get it right, but the attitude is not a thing unique to TOR.  I'm not sure how many of those people worked on TOR, but it seems to me that has become Bioware's identity and that's they type of people they want working for them.  

 

Now they've stepped out of their element with a 100x as many people paying attention.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When they literally verbally attacked the SWTOR CB testers because we were offering feedback, called us idiots said they knew more than we ever would and we should bow down and worship them for allowing us to buy games from them well that was the point I was done with Bioware...

 

FOREVER!

Yep, I remember that. Specifically, it was George Zoeller who told us they didn't need our feedback. As long as we played, they got all the "metrics" they wanted and the rest was no concern. That was when I stopped even trying to suggest anything helpful and became a regular pain in EAware's ass on the forums.

-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  BarCrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/25/07
Posts: 2217

5/15/12 3:41:39 PM#37
Originally posted by Darth-Ninja

Not surprising in the least., the most over-hyped wildly mediocre mmo in and for years. Maybe BW's and EA's 15 year plan was to butcher a great IP.

Lucas beat them to it quite a while ago.

  BarCrow

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/25/07
Posts: 2217

5/15/12 3:47:59 PM#38
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2
Originally posted by RebornDragon
Originally posted by CrunkJuice2

"They won't listen to their playerbase because they "know better".

really? i guess you must be new to swtor.the only reason scoundrels/operatives are so gimp now are because they listened to much to there playerbase.QQing about stunlocks is what pretty much made those classes worthless in every area besides healing

 

Stunlocking isn't fun gameplay. A stun here and there for a quick defensive or offensive boost is fine, but being able to chain them so close together is not fun or good combat design.

 

regardless if it isnt fun,thats what a rogue class is suppose to do

 

but i guess the failures they hired in for there pvp team thought differently

 

not that it matters anyway,i doubt all the serious pvpers are even going to stay with swtor regardless.this games pvp just reminds me of world of warcraft,which was a joke

 

Actually, there are alternatives, don't assume WOW's model is the only (or best) one

In DAOC steathers were completely different in design, they  did not stun lock you, they hit you with massive burst damage early on and it was a race to the finish to see if they could kill their opponent before they healed up or out lasted them in damage before the end.

I recall playing an Infiltrator and I'd hit the target with a big backstab using poison daggers to boost the dps with dots, then switching daggers to apply more poisons and trying to get the quick kill.

Against sitting cloth casters this was not such a challenge, but against a tank, was near impossible except for the very skilled (or if you hit him before he was able to regen his full health (which actually took a minute or two based on downtime mechanics that title had then)

Back to the article, the quotes in the OP aren't nearly so inflammatory if not taken out of context.  In reading the whole article he doesn't come off nearly so arrogant and it does sound like they actually put quite a bit of thought into it.

Where my soul withers is listening to the gear / gear stats focus of the PVP design a la WOW, that's another area DAOC differed and I don't care for the trend of differing gear sets for PVP vs PVE and having to collect both, just a pain in the arse IMO.

 

 

So true..Conan didn't cleave through hordes of minions and then stop before he reaches Thoth-Amon to put on a different Loincloth , Chainmail and horned helmet... switch out swords and take him on one on one. Then have to change into a scale tunic , magical headband, leg wrappings and a battle axe when an old friend betrays and attacks him.

The 2-3 sets of gear grind mechanics in most games today just pisses me off. The only mmo that  never pissed me off with all its "Sets" was Vanguard. Each set was obtained through different means that just didnt seem as grindy as newer MMOS. I imagine now you'l just be able to buy sets when it goes F2P. As long as it sticks around. I still like to visit from time to time.

Now i fear that will be so with SWTOR. Once I finish all the storylines it will be just a vacation home from newer MMOS like GW2,Tera and TSW. Or likely i will keep jumping about from MMO to MMO having mostly fun but never completely satisfied.

 

  Rommie10-284

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/07/05
Posts: 212

Really Uncle Bugs?

Spirit of Fair Play is slain by Online Community!

5/15/12 3:54:34 PM#39
Originally posted by eyeswideopen
Originally posted by Sorrow

When they literally verbally attacked the SWTOR CB testers because we were offering feedback, called us idiots said they knew more than we ever would and we should bow down and worship them for allowing us to buy games from them well that was the point I was done with Bioware...

 

FOREVER!

Yep, I remember that. Specifically, it was George Zoeller who told us they didn't need our feedback. As long as we played, they got all the "metrics" they wanted and the rest was no concern. That was when I stopped even trying to suggest anything helpful and became a regular pain in EAware's ass on the forums.

So do I.  I also ignored the waving red flag this was, to my regret.  Never again.

The biggest joke from all this?  These guys will get high-profile jobs down the road, because they *worked* on TOR, and the industry doesn't give a frak about performance.  That has to change before games can really move forward, and why I'm hoping some of these new games find success with new people behind them.

Avatars are people too

  Amaranthar

Novice Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

5/15/12 3:57:04 PM#40
Originally posted by eyeswideopen
Originally posted by Sorrow
Originally posted by AbdullaDoo

To me they've been arrogant and classless for a long time.  I followed Dragon Age's progress for many years, and toward the end when people questioned why certain design choices were made (lack of scabbards, dynamic weather, and day/night cycle, etc.) devs popped up with lazy, rude, "We know better than you what makes a good game" type of responses, while community managers disciplined posters and shut down threads that were critical of certain choices.  EA had bought Bioware in there at some point during DA:O's development.  Perhaps they were influenced by EA's "corporate culture" or because going big time got into their head a little bit.  Who knows.

 

I haven't played either DA game, so perhaps they did get it right, but the attitude is not a thing unique to TOR.  I'm not sure how many of those people worked on TOR, but it seems to me that has become Bioware's identity and that's they type of people they want working for them.  

 

Now they've stepped out of their element with a 100x as many people paying attention.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When they literally verbally attacked the SWTOR CB testers because we were offering feedback, called us idiots said they knew more than we ever would and we should bow down and worship them for allowing us to buy games from them well that was the point I was done with Bioware...

 

FOREVER!

Yep, I remember that. Specifically, it was George Zoeller who told us they didn't need our feedback. As long as we played, they got all the "metrics" they wanted and the rest was no concern. That was when I stopped even trying to suggest anything helpful and became a regular pain in EAware's ass on the forums.

Oh hell, we have game developers that come here to tell us the same basic thing on these forums. You don't have to work so hard for it.

Once upon a time....

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