Originally posted by Kost

Originally posted by Loktofeit

the developers offer no other way for a person to see if they like the game before investing $40, $50, $60 or even more to discover it isn't for them. 

Which was never a problem during the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. People purchased the game, played, and if they didn't like it they never played it again and chalked it up as "shit happens".

So why is it an issue now?

Well, because of the level of entitlement that has risen exponentially over the last seven years within this genre. People now feel entitled to a trial ahead of time now so they can dodge a chance at buyers remorse. That is all there is to it.

Guess what? When I bought FF8 in 1999 and didn't feel it was as good as FF7, I left it at that. If I had gone back to the store and told them that I wanted a refund because the game was not as good as I was led to believe they would have laughed me out of the building.

The only thing that has changed is people's overentitled attitudes towards gaming purchases.

I remember so many game i have bought over the years that were less than good.  Games that i played for days or weeks before never touching again.  In fact, i would bet that many of the people who rage over less than perfection in mmorpgs have purchased countless games they didnt like, shelved them, and never thought twice about it.  Seems mmorpgs bring out the rage emotions when things dont work out as they had hyped them up.

Its going to be quite interesting to see this "me, now!" generation enter the real world...i honsetly think the world is going to need more brutal dictators since self rule isnt going to work with this generation considering they have no morals and a very selfish outlook on life.

Regardless of all that, this is exactly the type of game thats going to cause a lot of people fustration, since you seem to need to "learn" how to play rather than it being a simple and mindless clone themepark.  Learning was deemed unfun some years ago.

Personally im looking forward to doing stuff diffrent, i dont think the game goes far enough with this but its a step in the right direction. Ill make the decision on playing at launch or waiting a bit based on more CBT review, ill skip all the betas however...not interested.

Originally posted by Kost

Which was never a problem during the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. People purchased the game, played, and if they didn't like it they never played it again and chalked it up as "shit happens".

So why is it an issue now?

Well, because of the level of entitlement that has risen exponentially over the last seven years within this genre. People now feel entitled to a trial ahead of time now so they can dodge a chance at buyers remorse. That is all there is to it.

While I make more money than I did then, I have more bills, more responsibilities, and frankly more things to spend my money on.  So yes, I would like to have an opportunity to try a game, especially if I'm unsure of it, before sinking $50+ into it.  Especially with an mmorpg because it's not like I can go sell or trade it to recoup some of my money back.

In regards to mmos, I think part of it is that there were so few mmo games back then than there are now.  Something like AC, Everquest were something new that we were willing to take a risk on.  Fast forward to today, there have been many releases since then with a mix of good and bad.  For many of us, we've invested years playing online games and have a better understanding of what we love about these games and what we hate... or what we'll endure to enjoy the good elements.  Many of us are older, perhaps jaded on online games, have more things competing for our time, etc.

I also think we as consumers are more demanding in our expectations.  This genre has been around for well over a decade and we expect something better.  So it's on the game developers to prove that their new game is better than what's out there today and/or at least is close to what they promised it would be.  Stores hand out free samples, car dealers allow for test drives, software products provide free demos/trials.  Why should the expectations be any different when we're deciding on game purchases?

Originally posted by Kost

Originally posted by Loktofeit

the developers offer no other way for a person to see if they like the game before investing $40, $50, $60 or even more to discover it isn't for them. 

Which was never a problem during the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. People purchased the game, played, and if they didn't like it they never played it again and chalked it up as "shit happens".

So why is it an issue now?

Well, because of the level of entitlement that has risen exponentially over the last seven years within this genre. People now feel entitled to a trial ahead of time now so they can dodge a chance at buyers remorse. That is all there is to it.

Guess what? When I bought FF8 in 1999 and didn't feel it was as good as FF7, I left it at that. If I had gone back to the store and told them that I wanted a refund because the game was not as good as I was led to believe they would have laughed me out of the building.

The only thing that has changed is people's overentitled attitudes towards gaming purchases.

You're comparing games you paid once for to games you pay for + a monthly fee. Even if you didn't like FF8 as much as FF7, you still had it to play whenever you liked, now that you own it. Thats an entirely different situation than being stuck with a game you're only so-so on, that you can't play anymore because the first month is up.

No free trial = no sale.  It also means the Dev is hiding something.

Originally posted by Kost

Which was never a problem during the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. People purchased the game, played, and if they didn't like it they never played it again and chalked it up as "shit happens".

So why is it an issue now?

Well, because of the level of entitlement that has risen exponentially over the last seven years within this genre. People now feel entitled to a trial ahead of time now so they can dodge a chance at buyers remorse. That is all there is to it.

Guess what? When I bought FF8 in 1999 and didn't feel it was as good as FF7, I left it at that. If I had gone back to the store and told them that I wanted a refund because the game was not as good as I was led to believe they would have laughed me out of the building.

The only thing that has changed is people's overentitled attitudes towards gaming purchases.

Turn off Faux News...

Back in the 80's and 90s video game stores had A RETURN POLICY...and as for early 2000s, they complained just as much and that more than likely came from the new "if its open its yours" policy of video game stores.

So...guess what? You just came off as the type of person you ranted about...someone who felt entitled to change history to cry like a child.

You can get a sample of a ten dollar product at your local grocery store without a hitch, but expecting the same for a fifty dollar product (with a shady reputation I might add) is immoral?

Tool logic?

Originally posted by jtcgs

Originally posted by Kost

Which was never a problem during the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. People purchased the game, played, and if they didn't like it they never played it again and chalked it up as "shit happens".

So why is it an issue now?

Well, because of the level of entitlement that has risen exponentially over the last seven years within this genre. People now feel entitled to a trial ahead of time now so they can dodge a chance at buyers remorse. That is all there is to it.

Guess what? When I bought FF8 in 1999 and didn't feel it was as good as FF7, I left it at that. If I had gone back to the store and told them that I wanted a refund because the game was not as good as I was led to believe they would have laughed me out of the building.

The only thing that has changed is people's overentitled attitudes towards gaming purchases.

Turn off Faux News...

Back in the 80's and 90s video game stores had A RETURN POLICY...and as for early 2000s, they complained just as much and that more than likely came from the new "if its open its yours" policy of video game stores.

So...guess what? You just came off as the type of person you ranted about...someone who felt entitled to change history to cry like a child.

I would actually have to agree wtih Kost of the rising gamer entitlement as well as valid reasons to stand against certain decisions made by publishers/studios. Yes, they're two different things. 

Wait, Funcom is launching an unfinished game?!??! THIS. IS. SO. SUPRISING!

Originally posted by dubyahite
Yet another poorly written "review" that offers little to no actual useful information to the reader.


Give us some substance or we have no reason to agree with you.

Like I said to someone else, if I have similar tastes to you, and you hate the game, it stands to reason that I might hate the game as well.

I will never know though because you don't know how to write. You could be the guy that saves people from wasting money on a game that they wouldn't like, but instead you just want to rant.


Here is a suggestion, learn to write in a compelling way or don't write "reviews".

You said a smart man looks over evidence yet you give us no compelling reason to believe you.


I've been on the fence about this game, and nobody around here is doing anything to offer me any further information one way or another.

 

get off your high horse and stop being double standard. 

      I find TSW a very mediocre game.....The combat/animations are very subpar and the cutscenes absolutely drove me crazy after awhile (just way too overdone and too many)......If the game was f2p with a cash shop I might think about it, but no way am I paying for it.

I never actually got to log in, but then again I had absolutely no intention of buying the game anyway. The fact that through the entire weekend my password that worked on the website apparently didnt work in the game was pretty aggravating though, really needed something new to help kill time til the d3 release.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Kost

Originally posted by HellCaster

I'm just glad I purchased through amazon so I could easily cancel this pre-order.

I'm hoping Amazon and similar distributors enact a policy where preorders cannot be cancelled, specifically so that people like you who abuse the preorder system in order to get a free trial can no longer do so.

It seems to be more sensible (and less frothing at the mouth vengeful) to acknowledge that the reason people do that is because the developers offer no other way for a person to see if they like the game before investing $40, $50, $60 or even more to discover it isn't for them. 

 

I wish restaurants felt the same way, I hate blowing 50 bucks at on a meal only to find out it wasn't for me.

I actually disagree with your philosophy, wait for the free trial period, don't do this pre-order then cancel game.

You want to be in at launch, pony up the pre-order and take your chances.

But hey, I don't get to make the rules.

in the late 90s when the first non mud mmo's came out, there wasnt really the same dimension of discontent with the product as we have now. Now that the shelves with mmo's are bulging at the seams people have tried a bit of this, a bit of that, and know more or less what they dont like. 

More importantly perhaps, which I think is being overlooked, is the fact that alot of gamers, have already, once or twice fallen prey to the overhype that comes with every AA title released since World of Warcraft. And so many people are jaded and suspiscious of game companies, especially when they dont have widely available beta access with either a preorder worth 5 bucks, or simply an open beta.

It is only in recent years that beta stopped being about testing a product for free, contributing your time and effort to help localise and remove bugs, to a payed for priviledge.

The word beta - has been completely bastardized in that regard. It causes alot of contention in that some people will claim that the socalled beta stage of a game (that they have already payed for) is the cause of all issues anyone might have with the game. While others point out, that beta nolonger means beta-testing. That the word beta, is simply being used instead of raw headstart, so that the buyer feels part of the "special" group of people who beta tested the game.

Some years ago, fileplanet and other websites like this were able to harangue a deal with major labels, to offer beta codes to their subscribers. This was the first forray into a somewhat "pay to play beta" mindset.

And since noone objected loudly enough or rather organised enough, this then developed into pre-purchase methods, where you buy the game quickly after it becomes available, and either garantee yourself a full headstart, or a chance for a beta weekend, or even a full on opt-in to beta. (how beta'ish that beta is varies a great deal)

In some of these beta's you actually do report bugs, and you see a lot of sudden patches and fixes, and that might be on-going for weeks if not months, even on a pre-purchase deal. Thats still a beta and because there is no dread of the soon-to-be official release date, you are less likely to write that game off as a done faildeal.

But other companies still hold to the holy grail of "its a beta" to help the message that the bugs will be gone before launch, eventhough that seems like a completely unrealistic goal, and yet they stand firm on a release date. 

This does more harm than good, and is baffling to me. 

In any case, I completely digressed there, the point I was trying to make is that anyone who is old enough to reference video games from the 80's or played UO or EQ1 in the late 90s - is not an entitled idjit when it comes to their fast judgements on some games. They just know what they want and what they dont want, and especially what feels like a wasting of their hard earned money. Entitlement might be the ailment of the guy who believes that his view on a game is the only acceptable one there is, nomatter what anyone elses frame of reference is. 

Originally posted by Kost

Originally posted by Loktofeit

the developers offer no other way for a person to see if they like the game before investing $40, $50, $60 or even more to discover it isn't for them. 

Which was never a problem during the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. People purchased the game, played, and if they didn't like it they never played it again and chalked it up as "shit happens".

So why is it an issue now?

The issue now is we got tired of getting fucked by hype, spin, and flat out lies from developers/publishers.

Devs don't want people using "beta" as a trial run, then those devs need to spend their own money and hire professional testers.

And sorry, the "pre-order/pre-purchase can't be cancelled" thing doesn't work. Funcom actually is using this policy if you pre-order the game directly from them. Fortunately, credit card companies do not consider anything to be "purchased" until the finished product, i.e. released product and not "beta, is provided. Until there is an actual product, the credit card company will simply provide a charge back for those denied refunds on their pre-order. As it should be.

I agree with you the horrible clunky combat and animation is the main reason for me not to like it and no way they can change it ever.also hate the UI/Icons(iOS/Android) and quest tracker.

I got in to the CB. I never pre-ordered I just signed up and got lucky I suppose.  I don't hate the game but it is hard for me to argue with what the OP stated about it.

There are a lot of very cool ideas at work here. If this was a little Indy studio we would all be blown away by what they have offered up..but its not. It's Funcom. So many things just about the company bother me never mind the game. For me I think i will just wait. There is just no doubt in my mind this game will go F2P rather quickly. I am not saying that in a negative way just that Funcom has seen how profitable F2P has been for them and I have a feeling this game was designed around a F2P model.

The custom outfits would be an area I'm sure they could make some money in a F2P route.  I was thinking that was the reason why the clothing options were so limited (until I saw Pangea) at the start.  Maybe they were going to make people pay extra for really cool looking clothing options.

Originally posted by BayonetRecon

The custom outfits would be an area I'm sure they could make some money in a F2P route.  I was thinking that was the reason why the clothing options were so limited (until I saw Pangea) at the start.  Maybe they were going to make people pay extra for really cool looking clothing options.

Oh, they are going to be charging for the best looking clothes in the cash shop. The thing is, they think they're going to have subs and a cash shop both. They did that to AoC. Then went F2P.

Simple fact is, Funcom knows there's a good chance they're going to have yet another flop on their hands and will have to resort to F2P in order to keep it going when the subs drop, just like AO and AoC. Only this time, they're building the game around F2P in the beginning so they won't have to work so hard when the inevitable shift happens. The game as it stands now is set up perfectly for F2P. Missions would easily be chopped into buyable packs, cash shop will already be fully loaded, etc.

Originally posted by Kost

Originally posted by Loktofeit

the developers offer no other way for a person to see if they like the game before investing $40, $50, $60 or even more to discover it isn't for them. 

Which was never a problem during the late 80s, 90s and early 2000s. People purchased the game, played, and if they didn't like it they never played it again and chalked it up as "shit happens".

Actually, many games in the late 80's and early 90's had freeware or demo versions. You also had a good number of software rental stores all over the place (the industry made short work of those evildoers!). PC Gamer used to have a diskette (later a CD) of game demos included with it. I think it was only about 6 or 7 months ago that they finally stopped that.

The computer expos used to have booth after booth with trials, freeware, shareware, demoware etc diskettes for sale.

Judging by your age in your profile, most of the game demos, freeware and shareware were probably before your time, but they most certainly did exist and they gave gamers a chance to try out the game before they bought it. This was especially important because of two 'features' of systems at the time - how memory was handled (Standard/EMS/XMS) and the diverse range of video cards and their individual drivers.  In the late 90s and early 2000s, game demos generally moved to the internet, with FilePlanet being one of the biggest demo repositories, for commercial games at least.

I bet some of the older gamers here still have their FullThrottle/Rebel Forces demo CD lying around somewhere. The real dinosaurs probably have a 3.5 or two of  their favorite shooter squirrelled away, as well.

Part of what killed demos is the preorder. I mean, seriously... why waste time making a demo version that allows people to actually decide if they want to buy or not, when you can change the color of an existing skin, offer it as a preorder bonus and get them to buy it months before the game is released?