Calling out IQs is about like calling people nazis on a forum. 

D2s skill trees were 10x as complex if by complex you mean the number of perfectly viable builds pre-hell.  I'm comparing pre-hell fun builds to the ENTIRE range of possibilities viable or otherwise in D3.  It's just a fact, deal with it.  I'm a big d3 fanboy, but this isn't a good system.

I wonder if anyone here has played rift.  I could play with that character builder all day and not run out of ideas.  D3's builder took me about 3 and a half minutes.

Originally posted by adam_nox

Originally posted by MikkelB

Originally posted by Rednecksith

Originally posted by Gajari

The irony is that the people calling it "dumbed down" really just don't understand the disguised complexity of it all. Some never will.

I know, right? I'm glad I stopped being a hater and actually did some research into it, else I might have missed out on one of the best games of the year. I've rarely been so happy to be proven wrong.

I feel sorry for those who won't do the same, but nostalgia blinders can be difficult to remove.

Dumbing down, cartoonish graphics and the RMAH arguments get pretty stale at this point.

Dumbing down is plain silly. If you like skill tree and being forced to level multiple characters to try different builds, then yes, Diablo 3 isn't for you. This doesn't mean that Diablo 3 is "dumbing down" and the customization department. If you can't see that, you're just blind

bzzt.  Thanks for playing though.

Many people who miss d2's skill trees were all for respecs, including myself.  Those skill trees at the very least held the potential IN CONCEPT for a lot of different and creative builds.  D3s do not.  If you think they do, YOU may be blind.

     D2 had ~10 active skills by the end

    D3 ~ 30 active skills per class by the end. 

     There is really very little difference in the system at hand and skill trees. Skill tree's present you with skill options at a certain level just like D3. Except in D3 I don't have to spend a hundred hours to test out a build. I also don't have to run back to town every 15min to respec, if that were implemented as in other games, for 15g. I just do it.

     I see next to no difference in the core concept to be honest. What is it that gives you your feelings about the skill tree? Your somehow superior to the guy next to you because he has to pay 15g or two hundred hours to copy your build? Riiiggghhht. Unique.

     What's truly unique, and presented in D3, is that there are so many viable options (you can take a look at it with the skill tree's if you want) that everyone will naturally have different builds. People make the mistake of thinking that because all the skills are presented to you it means you can actively use all of them. That's not how it ends up working. You generally make a decision long before battle concerning your build and roll with it for quite some time. 

      Skill tree's worked the same way. You are level 3, you can choose between these skills. With those games though, as I said, I have to perform some tedius walk back to town and pay an arbituary 15g to change a build or I have to 'pay' a hundred and fifty hours of my life. 

     I believe people are just dense as all hell. Once people really get to the higher levels and experience what its like to have four skills dropped on you in one level you'll know what I mean by D3's customization. Seriously. Its a different beast so you'll have to show some maturity and see it through.

     Its a type of beast where you don't spend the rest of the game regretting your decision because every other warrior your level outpaces you. Instead, in D3, you end up with naturally varrying builds. Not forced builds.

     The skills are balanced to such a degree that its just insane. Every skill is viable, all of them, at every level. The runes keep skills changing even further.

     Not only will you pick a unique set of the 6 skills out of the 30-40 presented but you will also pick a form of those skills out of 6 others.

     Someone did the match and there was like 3 billion possibilities for character customization, counting passive abilities.

     No other game has come even remotely close to this. As I said, D2 had roughly 10 skills to choose from by the end. 

     I just can't get over how nobody else seems to understand its the same thing without asking people to pay large chunks of life or tedium to try something else. Again, I'll reiterate, you are given the same choice in a skill tree system.

    Skill tree: Your level 18, you can now choose between these 2 skills (all of the ones before them are also now near useless). But of course its not really a choice because anyone who cares about builds at all has looked up the 'proper' build by now anyways.

    D3: you are level 18, you can now choose between these 4 skills and all of the skills before (which are all still very useful). These 24 skills you now have, in total, are also customizable and come in 6 different forms each. 

     Who do you think will have the more unique build here?

Originally posted by adam_nox

Calling out IQs is about like calling people nazis on a forum. 

D2s skill trees were 10x as complex if by complex you mean the number of perfectly viable builds pre-hell.  I'm comparing pre-hell fun builds to the ENTIRE range of possibilities viable or otherwise in D3.  It's just a fact, deal with it.  I'm a big d3 fanboy, but this isn't a good system.

I wonder if anyone here has played rift.  I could play with that character builder all day and not run out of ideas.  D3's builder took me about 3 and a half minutes.

The game is out in 24 hours, can we stop the pointless bashing? D3 skills system is different to that of D2.. you cannot please all of the people all of the time.  For me D3 system offers so much more, Tree's skills & stat points are old hat lets give this system a fair go rather then dismissing it just cus it's different.

Originally posted by adam_nox

Calling out IQs is about like calling people nazis on a forum. 

D2s skill trees were 10x as complex if by complex you mean the number of perfectly viable builds pre-hell.  I'm comparing pre-hell fun builds to the ENTIRE range of possibilities viable or otherwise in D3.  It's just a fact, deal with it.  I'm a big d3 fanboy, but this isn't a good system.

I wonder if anyone here has played rift.  I could play with that character builder all day and not run out of ideas.  D3's builder took me about 3 and a half minutes.

Takes me longer than 3 minutes to even read and understand a partial set of one classes skills in D3... you're being silly.

Originally posted by adam_nox

Originally posted by MikkelB

Originally posted by Rednecksith

Originally posted by Gajari

The irony is that the people calling it "dumbed down" really just don't understand the disguised complexity of it all. Some never will.

I know, right? I'm glad I stopped being a hater and actually did some research into it, else I might have missed out on one of the best games of the year. I've rarely been so happy to be proven wrong.

I feel sorry for those who won't do the same, but nostalgia blinders can be difficult to remove.

Dumbing down, cartoonish graphics and the RMAH arguments get pretty stale at this point.

Dumbing down is plain silly. If you like skill tree and being forced to level multiple characters to try different builds, then yes, Diablo 3 isn't for you. This doesn't mean that Diablo 3 is "dumbing down" and the customization department. If you can't see that, you're just blind

bzzt.  Thanks for playing though.

Many people who miss d2's skill trees were all for respecs, including myself.  Those skill trees at the very least held the potential IN CONCEPT for a lot of different and creative builds.  D3s do not.  If you think they do, YOU may be blind.

Bzzt. Nice try though.

If you allow respecs, unlimited, even for a certain costs, the only big difference between the skilltree system and Diablo 3's system is time, with the skilltree system being more limited even. Diablo 3 gives you the abilty to change it on the fly (not sure if you can do it in combat too, doesn't matter much for the argument though) at the cost of a cooldown period. With respecs, you need to get back to town, change your skills and get back to where you left off. Same stuff, though with the skilltree you are limited, with for example the total amount of points you can distribute over the number of different trees. Because of this, stronger skills/abilities end up with a higher cost in skillpoints and so limited your builds.

Diablo 3 allows for more builds, hence more creative builds. Diablo 3 also stimulates you for sticking with your build, with the buff system that gives a higher chance of finding magic items when you stick with your current build. However, in the event that you, for example, run into a frost immune Unique monster on you frost specced wizard, you can change your skills on the fly, without having to hike back and forth for respeccing purposes.

If you can't see the potential with this system, then good sir, you may suffer from a severe case of blindness. Just because you have access to all the skills of a certain champion, doesn't mean that there won't be creative builds. 

The thing i like the most of this skill system is that it will be hard or imposible to make builds, and by build i mean a group of skills or stats wich let you one shot or cycle (in a skill rotation) every encounter with monsters. This new skill system just gives you a number of diferent tools wich may or not work well together and its up to you how to use them.

The point here, a build based skill system lets people make optimal builds wich make the game EASY and boring, skills who dont let you make builds make you (the player) to be more active and use a diferent skills every time, wich is great fun.

I find it funny that people are bitching, I mean really, think back realllly hard at your skills in D2, 90% of everyone spammed 1 skill, ALL THE TIME.  At least now you have options without having to make a million characters to try it out with.  I bet half the people who are butthurt about it haven't even played D2 within recent years, I mean good lord it's fun for a bit but once you get into the hell diff, you are seriously hindered at what you can take on solo unless you have the "proper" build and gear.  Thus making say your fav char useless unless you're built for it.  Now with D3, we can build our favorite char to switch skills that will work against certain situations, instead of saying, well, this char is useless for this this and that so I might as well reroll this.

Originally posted by Gajari

The irony is that the people calling it "dumbed down" really just don't understand the disguised complexity of it all. Some never will.

There is noting complex about learning a Blizzard game because for years the concept has always been "easy to lean hard to master". The hard to master part is all about competting with other players. Yeah I can see the disguised complexity now....

Originally posted by Mephster

Originally posted by Gajari

The irony is that the people calling it "dumbed down" really just don't understand the disguised complexity of it all. Some never will.

There is noting complex about learning a Blizzard game because for years the concept has always been "easy to lean hard to master". The hard to master part is all about competting with other players. Yeah I can see the disguised complexity now....

The main problem with the "hard to master" part, is that a lot of people, if not most, just copy & paste a working build from the internet. So much for your "hard to master". You see this all the time, from Skyrim to League of Legends. In regards to the latter, a lot of people follow the guides for the different champions to the letter, except the part wherein the author states, in bold, red and capital letters, that the buildorder differs per circumstance. However, the average Joe just builds from item 1 to 5 in the order of the guide. The same can be said for Diablo 2, Torchlight, PoE and Titan Quest. The whole "hard to master" part goes down the drain, because people just want a succesful build. Innovation is a wonderful thing, but if it means rerolling that necromancer for the 15th time, it's gets tiring fast.

The hope is that people will experiment more with Diablo 3. I know I did in those 13 levels. Without having to worry that me having fun now, is going to ruin my fun at level 60. That means a lot for me.

Originally posted by dubyahite
@Mephster

It's no less complex than a stupid skill tree.

Well that is what I am saying. This one over here thinks there is some hidden mathematical physics equation we all must figure out here.

Originally posted by adam_nox

Calling out IQs is about like calling people nazis on a forum. 

D2s skill trees were 10x as complex if by complex you mean the number of perfectly viable builds pre-hell.  I'm comparing pre-hell fun builds to the ENTIRE range of possibilities viable or otherwise in D3.  It's just a fact, deal with it.  I'm a big d3 fanboy, but this isn't a good system.

I wonder if anyone here has played rift.  I could play with that character builder all day and not run out of ideas.  D3's builder took me about 3 and a half minutes.

The point of my post is that skill trees do not require much brain power to use. It is the very definition of a linear skill system. You have to put points in skill A to get to skill B to get to skill C. You are restricted in how you can accomplish your goals as far as skill goes.

It doesn't require much thinking to make a build in a traditional skill tree. It is no more complex than the D3 skill system by any stretch of the imagination. The only thing it does differently is restrict you into a linear skill progression path.  

D3 is a much more open system of character progression. You can combine the skills together however you want with fewer restriction. You don't have to take skill A to get skill B, even if you don't want skill A.

It's not dumbed down. For something to be dumbed down it had to not be simple in the first place. Skill trees in the traditional sense are definitely simple.

As far as rift goes, that was more complex because you got to actually pick your skill trees. I enjoyed the Rift skill system, but don't kid yourself into thinking that D2 had anything remotely close to that level of complexity in the skill tree. 

Not going to bother reading all the above just going to state why I dont like this new system of skills.

Alot of people agree with it and thats fine but the replay value in this game will be small if I had all skills I wanted on my character with one time through and wasnt forced to pick certan ones I would of stoped after maybe 3 times through the game. Instead though since I really enjoyed classes and enjoyed different trees on certian classes I made them countless time and I never once thought uh the grind I just thought wow cant wait to get this skill up or get to 30 so I can get my first point in summon bear.

I really do think most games now r for carebears you can holla all you want and rebel but every game I play now a days is neutered for people who just lack common skills. Not going to go on a full list of cause there is plenty of them, but lets just say wow for example ICC not everyone could do it ICC buff, Cata heroic dung bosses had mechanics if you didnt dodge you died simple end of it again people were not smart enough to not stand in pools or stand behind rocks so you get dung buff lol sorry going off on a rant. Let the hate begin :)

Originally posted by Lobotomist

When I first seen the D3 skill system I was very much against it. I also posted few angry posts here criticising it.

You unlock all skills by leveling up , just like WOW :(

They removed rune slots ! :(

It did sound like huge dumbing down. And maybe it still is. But there is great gameplay benefit.

So stay awile and listen ;)

I am big fan of H&S games and have played them all , and many times.

There are 2 gameplay elements that can make the game or ruin it , and they are not emidiately apparent :

1. Variety of monster tactics and abilities - Each monster should present new chalenge and new way of approach. If all monsters just run at you and hit. The game will have dull gameplay (as POE fails to understand)

But more important for us :

2. Skills should be different and varied -

For example if you have two skills on skill tree - One is doing some kind of damage , and other is also doing some kind of damage (just with different animation) - than what is the point ? Yet many games fall for this - Torchlight most notably. Look at the skill tree and notice that most of the skills do basically same, but with different animation.

->

Now In Diablo 3

Not only that each skill does completely different thing. And has completely different gameplay utility. But with runes you can even modify their GAMEPLAY effect even further (for example - making it AOE, or DPS, or Snare ... etc)

So each skill has important gameplay utility

They are not just DMG 1 and DMG 2

...

But further on , what Diablo 3 lets you do is to customise yourself for each encounter !

You can rebuild your skill output to deal with nasty swarm of slowing ice bats. And next rebuild skill output to deal with though armored resistant giant boss monster.

---

Instead playing one build to nauseum - You are playing all builds !

Gameplay = Fun !

You are not forced to play whole game with your Ice sorceress , now you can be any kind of sorceress - when you want !

 

There you go

 

 

Ok, who are you and where is the real Lobotomist?

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Lobotomist
  

Ok, who are you and where is the real Lobotomist?

In my back yard.. >:)

Originally posted by Aori

Originally posted by waynejr2

Originally posted by Lobotomist
  

Ok, who are you and where is the real Lobotomist?

In my back yard.. >:)

If he doesn't put the lotion on his skin, will he get the hose again?

Originally posted by Noxcard

Not going to bother reading all the above just going to state why I dont like this new system of skills.

Alot of people agree with it and thats fine but the replay value in this game will be small if I had all skills I wanted on my character with one time through and wasnt forced to pick certan ones I would of stoped after maybe 3 times through the game. Instead though since I really enjoyed classes and enjoyed different trees on certian classes I made them countless time and I never once thought uh the grind I just thought wow cant wait to get this skill up or get to 30 so I can get my first point in summon bear.

I really do think most games now r for carebears you can holla all you want and rebel but every game I play now a days is neutered for people who just lack common skills. Not going to go on a full list of cause there is plenty of them, but lets just say wow for example ICC not everyone could do it ICC buff, Cata heroic dung bosses had mechanics if you didnt dodge you died simple end of it again people were not smart enough to not stand in pools or stand behind rocks so you get dung buff lol sorry going off on a rant. Let the hate begin :)

The only thing I can say to you is that games are as difficult as you want them to be. In my opinion, people who are of the opinion that games today are more "carebear" like then they used to be, limited themselves. You can set your own goals in games. If you like sticking with one spec per champion, then why not do so in Diablo 3? The game doesn't limit you in this. Just because the bar to enter isn't as high as it used to be anymore, doesn't mean that you can't enjoy it in the way you want.

So, for example, in Diablo 3, before you start, plan your spec and stick with it. If it doesn't work out, roll a new. You can "carebear" it out or challenge yourself. You're not limited by any artificial barriers set up by the game developers anymore.

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Why Diablo 3 skill system is change for the good

Sorry but you You must be brainwashed. Dubbing anything down is never a good thing for any game. and it never has. (SWG, EQ, EQ2) The only thing it's done is loose hardcore players interest and move onto other games. It's only a good thing to casual players who want things handed to them on a silver platter.

People who defend Diablo 3 despite the obvious, is the same people who couldn't be bothered too do research and look into what has been removed mechanically and gameplay wise from the first 2 games that made the 2 games unique from other hack'n'slash rpgs.

-The reply Value for Diablo 3 sucks. Period.

-The Mechanics in diablo 3 are for people with don't know how too do grade 8 algerbra. Period

Mysts of Pandora is a perfect example of this. Blizzard has stated that their new system is for the better, and nieve gamers like you eat it up everytime. Instead of being able to mix-match in certain tree's like you used to be able too do. Now you wont be able too do that. THE GAME WILL DO IT FOR YOU YAY FOR THAT! *sarcasm

I also find it amusing that you say that diablo 3 allows for more class customization. Even my wife laughed at that one. Even Rift has more class combination then this pos

Originally posted by trash656

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Why Diablo 3 skill system is change for the good

Sorry but you You must be brainwashed. Dubbing anything down is never a good thing for any game. and it never has. (SWG, EQ, EQ2) The only thing it's done is loose hardcore players interest and move onto other games. It's only a good thing to casual players who want things handed to them on a silver platter.

People who defend Diablo 3 despite the obvious, is the same people who couldn't be bothered too do research and look into what has been removed mechanically and gameplay wise from the first 2 games that made the 2 games unique from other hack'n'slash rpgs.

-The reply Value for Diablo 3 sucks. Period.

-The Mechanics in diablo 3 are for people with don't know how too do grade 8 algerbra. Period

Mysts of Pandora is a perfect example of this. Blizzard has stated that their new system is for the better, and nieve gamers like you eat it up everytime. Instead of being able to mix-match in certain tree's like you used to be able too do. Now you wont be able too do that. THE GAME WILL DO IT FOR YOU YAY FOR THAT! *sarcasm

I also find it amusing that you say that diablo 3 allows for more class customization. Even my wife laughed at that one. Even Rift has more class combination then this pos

I like that you supposedly forewent english in favor of math. Which leads me to believe you weren't able to read the op's post. Go back and lets try this again please.

Originally posted by trash656

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Why Diablo 3 skill system is change for the good

Sorry but you You must be brainwashed. Dubbing anything down is never a good thing for any game. and it never has. (SWG, EQ, EQ2) The only thing it's done is loose hardcore players interest and move onto other games. It's only a good thing to casual players who want things handed to them on a silver platter.

People who defend Diablo 3 despite the obvious, is the same people who couldn't be bothered too do research and look into what has been removed mechanically and gameplay wise from the first 2 games that made the 2 games unique from other hack'n'slash rpgs.

-The reply Value for Diablo 3 sucks. Period.

-The Mechanics in diablo 3 are for people with don't know how too do grade 8 algerbra. Period

Mysts of Pandora is a perfect example of this. Blizzard has stated that their new system is for the better, and nieve gamers like you eat it up everytime. Instead of being able to mix-match in certain tree's like you used to be able too do. Now you wont be able too do that. THE GAME WILL DO IT FOR YOU YAY FOR THAT! *sarcasm

I also find it amusing that you say that diablo 3 allows for more class customization. Even my wife laughed at that one. Even Rift has more class combination then this pos

Someone already wrote about supposed "hardcore" players

In thruth you only have players with abundance of time and players with limited time

As for replayability ...

If the only way for game to create replayability is to force you to grind new builds , than screw that game.

I want replayability because of gameplay