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Diablo 3

Diablo 3 

General Discussion  » Diablo 3: Pretty Much the Worst of What Everyone Was Expecting

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242 posts found
  Kinchyle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 264

5/12/12 5:12:05 PM#221
Originally posted by Clerigo
Originally posted by Kinchyle
Originally posted by Clerigo
Originally posted by Aori
Originally posted by Clerigo

I wasnt expecting nothing out of it. The best of what Diabo had to offer was in D2... for me gameplay>graphics and the best that could be delivered in a game like this was in D2 so i was only expecting a graphic improvement...

...like Blizz did with starcraft...and managed to sold quite a bunch of that flop to many ppl, so they will do the same withh D3.

I was a big fan of WoW..played it for 4 years...still the best gaming experience i had so far, but as i grew older i also learned to look at things with a more "wiser" perspective. And, in my modest opinion, Blizz is now a money making machine and has nothing of quality to offer and no new ideas.

Who wants to play a reskinned game of Diablo 2? If graphics aren't an issue then play diablo 2. I don't want the same game, I want a new one.

Who are you to determine what is a flop and what isn't. SC2 is one of the most sponsored and played games in the world, so much for being a flop.

Wise people don't usually have contradictions in their statements. Think on that for a bit.

I dont need to think, i "see" it my friend.

If you are ok by buying a new car for you and your familly, that has fresh new lines, but uses the same engine, transmission, etc of the older one..i say...good for you. Buy it and have fun...but better test if those brakes are better than the old ones...you may crash...

Except the fact that you are wrong by so far about D3. No "reskinning". No "same engine" (where do you get your info?), no same "anything". Which is why it's called D3...not D2 and 1/2

My english is far from being any good, but i think i wrote "gameplay>graphics" and not "D2>D3". And if D3 is a whole new game, can you include all the new game features this one will have? The cash-shop? The "hit a button and join your friend in battle"? The "new" combat system? Oh...never saw that before..w8...click a mob and spam skills oh man sounds great..never seen that before...

Im not juding D3..im judging the whole franchise...what has D3 to offer of new?

Diablo was one of the best RPGs ever...D2 followed with co-op multiplayer..more of the same but with multi-player...and now D3..please enlight me.

The truth is, even now, Blizz is capitalizing its best and biggest names. Both Diablo and Starcraft were and still are loved by millions around the world. What makes you think that D3 will feel new to this people? It wont..just wont. But im sure it will sell big numbers.

Sorry...was the car reference I replied about. It was off.

  Clerigo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/01/10
Posts: 403

Healing Over Time since 2004

5/12/12 5:17:43 PM#222
Originally posted by Kinchyle
Originally posted by Clerigo
Originally posted by Kinchyle
Originally posted by Clerigo
Originally posted by Aori
Originally posted by Clerigo

I wasnt expecting nothing out of it. The best of what Diabo had to offer was in D2... for me gameplay>graphics and the best that could be delivered in a game like this was in D2 so i was only expecting a graphic improvement...

...like Blizz did with starcraft...and managed to sold quite a bunch of that flop to many ppl, so they will do the same withh D3.

I was a big fan of WoW..played it for 4 years...still the best gaming experience i had so far, but as i grew older i also learned to look at things with a more "wiser" perspective. And, in my modest opinion, Blizz is now a money making machine and has nothing of quality to offer and no new ideas.

Who wants to play a reskinned game of Diablo 2? If graphics aren't an issue then play diablo 2. I don't want the same game, I want a new one.

Who are you to determine what is a flop and what isn't. SC2 is one of the most sponsored and played games in the world, so much for being a flop.

Wise people don't usually have contradictions in their statements. Think on that for a bit.

I dont need to think, i "see" it my friend.

If you are ok by buying a new car for you and your familly, that has fresh new lines, but uses the same engine, transmission, etc of the older one..i say...good for you. Buy it and have fun...but better test if those brakes are better than the old ones...you may crash...

Except the fact that you are wrong by so far about D3. No "reskinning". No "same engine" (where do you get your info?), no same "anything". Which is why it's called D3...not D2 and 1/2

My english is far from being any good, but i think i wrote "gameplay>graphics" and not "D2>D3". And if D3 is a whole new game, can you include all the new game features this one will have? The cash-shop? The "hit a button and join your friend in battle"? The "new" combat system? Oh...never saw that before..w8...click a mob and spam skills oh man sounds great..never seen that before...

Im not juding D3..im judging the whole franchise...what has D3 to offer of new?

Diablo was one of the best RPGs ever...D2 followed with co-op multiplayer..more of the same but with multi-player...and now D3..please enlight me.

The truth is, even now, Blizz is capitalizing its best and biggest names. Both Diablo and Starcraft were and still are loved by millions around the world. What makes you think that D3 will feel new to this people? It wont..just wont. But im sure it will sell big numbers.

Sorry...was the car reference I replied about. It was off.

Nah its ok. Im sure D3 will be a good game. But im just craving for some new stuff. I dont know...maybe ive been gaming for far too long and i just need a change..maybe play chess or whatever...

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2680

5/12/12 5:48:14 PM#223
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Originally posted by fivoroth
Originally posted by Souldrainer
Originally posted by Celcius

There is a reason the game is breaking pre-order sales records (and probably PC game launch records). The reason being, that the game is great in beta and people trust Blizzard. Blizzard has never made a game that did not sell really well, hell I don't remember the last one to not break sales records, so they have brand loyalty. Brand loyalty is earned, not bought. People buy Blizzard games because they trust the investment they are making to be a good one. Contrary to what some people may believe, the game will be huge.

I don't see anybody here saying it will flop.  What we are saying though... is Blizzard basically blended the world with Helloy Kitty and added a Buy to Win system, and people are OK with it.  It's a sad day for gaming.

 

Will the game be high quality?  Sure.  It will be of amazing quality...  the absolute best Warcraft ARPG you can imagine!  Will the game be a solid and true sequel to the Diablo series?  Not by a long shot.

 

Why exactly is Diablo 3 a Warcraft ARPG? I am listening. Amuse me.

#1 Existence of pre-rendered Best in Slot items.

#2 Pastel Colors.

#3 Pandaria skill tree system.

#4 Forced Online play.

#5 Existence of Bind on Pickup items.

... for starters.  The similarities don't end there, not  by a long shot.  But then, they are adding RMT auctions.  /fail

1. Lol what? Tons of random items in Diablo 3. I can't see how you can possibly talk about this.  Maybe when you hit higher levels THEN you can actually make comments like this. 

2. They are using this style in most of their games. I've looked at quite a few videos and the game does have the Diablo feeling unlike other games which shall remain unnamed. There's also a plugin which can make the game much "darker" for you.

3. No? The Pandaria tree is 1 talent every 12-18 (don't know the number) levels.

4. Who the fuck cares? Do you guys live in a cave? I mean seriously.

5. Yeah, that's a bummer but lately this ha's beem happening in the majority of RPGs.

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  dubyahite

Novice Member

Joined: 1/17/11
Posts: 2506

5/12/12 6:19:10 PM#224
Originally posted by ArEf
Originally posted by dubyahite

 

Nicely cherrypicked screenshots.

Yet in that bottom one, that witch doctor is wearing neonpink clothing.

Also, I'm not the one who was talking about pastels so I don't know why you're addressing this at me.

Yep, got confused with the silly hate threads.

 

There's that other thread where the guy is saying that they use pastels, then it bled over here and I got confused. My apologies I'll edit the post.  

 

I didn't cherry pick anything btw, I just did a google image search and clicked on a random screenshot.  

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  slicknslim88

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 400

5/12/12 6:32:00 PM#225

Refferring to the OP and his post, although he is coming off as smug and pretentious, I have to agree with him on several things.

I was excited for D3 up until they announced no single player forced connection at all times, the RMAH, and no modding, amongst other things.  I tried the beta, enjoyed it the first play through, but it was a cakewalk, waaaay too easy.  I know they said it gets harder past the first act but they should have given gamers the chance to play the first act on a harder diffculty, Diablo players love a challenge, and neglecting that challenge in the beta gave very bad impressions of the game.

I've been predicting that Torchlight 2 will be better than Diablo 3 for a long long time now, ever since the previously mentioned announcements.  Diablo 3's almost 12 year development has taken it's toll and it will be all the worse for it when it's released.  It just doesn't look as action packed and fun as Torchlight 2 is looking.

  supahero911

Novice Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 1

5/12/12 10:33:38 PM#226
Stop argueing over a game like its a 50.000$ car. It's a game, optimezed to be fun for almost anyone.
  Azureal

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/06
Posts: 242

5/12/12 10:39:06 PM#227

LOL.

Epic review.

I like the part where he/she/it compares many aspects of D3 with D2 and then says D3 doesnt feel very Diablo-ish.

#CANCELPREORDER

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But seriously, cmon May 15th! BOOM!

PAST: UO-SWG-DAOC-WOW-DDO-VG-AOC-WAR-FE-DFO-LOTRO-RIFT-GW2
PRESENT: Nothing
FUTURE: ESO

  Grailer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 819

5/13/12 4:12:09 AM#228
Originally posted by slicknslim88

Ive been predicting that Torchlight 2 will be better than Diablo 3 for a long long time now, ever since the previously mentioned announcements.  Diablo 3's almost 12 year development has taken it's toll and it will be all the worse for it when it's released.  It just doesn't look as action packed and fun as Torchlight 2 is looking.

If you like playing a cartoon then TL2 is going to be great!

 

  sushimees

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 491

5/13/12 4:25:14 AM#229
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by ArEf
Originally posted by Adhesive33

Give Path of Exile a shot if you can grab a key somewhere, I'm finding it to be very addicting, and the skill system is exellent. 

Planning on doing so. Mainly can't wait until Torchlight 2 comes out. :(

LOL at Torchlight 2.

 

Steampunk with giant fonts is cool amirite?

 

TL1 was a 1 week game at best.  TL2 may be a 3 week game until mods come out.

If you compare TL 2 and Diablo 3 on paper, then it's clear that TL 2 is already a bigger game. Honestly, if you compare both games then you can't really justify the price of D3. The only reason Blizzard can put a price tag on D3, is because it's built up on 2 previous installments which were very successful. Torchlight is not as popular as D3 but still manages to have more features in the game than D3, yet the price is only $20.

And people complaining about the cartoony looks is just laughable. Diablo 3 doesn't look grim or dark either, it's pretty light on the graphical style too.


  Aori

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/06
Posts: 1790

5/13/12 4:27:51 AM#230
Originally posted by sushimees
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by ArEf
Originally posted by Adhesive33

Give Path of Exile a shot if you can grab a key somewhere, I'm finding it to be very addicting, and the skill system is exellent. 

Planning on doing so. Mainly can't wait until Torchlight 2 comes out. :(

LOL at Torchlight 2.

 

Steampunk with giant fonts is cool amirite?

 

TL1 was a 1 week game at best.  TL2 may be a 3 week game until mods come out.

If you compare TL 2 and Diablo 3 on paper, then it's clear that TL 2 is already a bigger game. Honestly, if you compare both games then you can't really justify the price of D3. The only reason Blizzard can put a price tag on D3, is because it's built up on 2 previous installments which were very successful. Torchlight is not as popular as D3 but still manages to have more features in the game than D3, yet the price is only $20.

How does TL2 have more features than D3. As for the pricetag bit, you're paying $20 for D3 and $40 for battle.net.. that better?

  sushimees

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 491

5/13/12 4:41:30 AM#231
Originally posted by Aori
Originally posted by sushimees
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by ArEf
Originally posted by Adhesive33

Give Path of Exile a shot if you can grab a key somewhere, I'm finding it to be very addicting, and the skill system is exellent. 

Planning on doing so. Mainly can't wait until Torchlight 2 comes out. :(

LOL at Torchlight 2.

 

Steampunk with giant fonts is cool amirite?

 

TL1 was a 1 week game at best.  TL2 may be a 3 week game until mods come out.

If you compare TL 2 and Diablo 3 on paper, then it's clear that TL 2 is already a bigger game. Honestly, if you compare both games then you can't really justify the price of D3. The only reason Blizzard can put a price tag on D3, is because it's built up on 2 previous installments which were very successful. Torchlight is not as popular as D3 but still manages to have more features in the game than D3, yet the price is only $20.

How does TL2 have more features than D3. As for the pricetag bit, you're paying $20 for D3 and $40 for battle.net.. that better?

Here's a link to a comparison: http://www.invisioncommunity.co.uk/featurespage/843-diablo-3-vs-torchlight-2.html

Also, how is $20 for D3 and $40 for B.net any better in your opinion? I can't play D3 without B.net. B.net is part of the game so I have to buy it to play. What's the point of your argument?


  Grailer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/06
Posts: 819

5/13/12 4:44:16 AM#232
Originally posted by sushimees

If you compare TL 2 and Diablo 3 on paper, then it's clear that TL 2 is already a bigger game. Honestly, if you compare both games then you can't really justify the price of D3. The only reason Blizzard can put a price tag on D3, is because it's built up on 2 previous installments which were very successful. Torchlight is not as popular as D3 but still manages to have more features in the game than D3, yet the price is only $20.

And people complaining about the cartoony looks is just laughable. Diablo 3 doesn't look grim or dark either, it's pretty light on the graphical style too.

 

Wait for both games to be released , Im banking on D3 to be the clear winner of this silly "my game is better than yours arguement."

However about TL2

Will there be graphical improvements? Some, yes! The engine running Torchlight II is newer and improved from the original engine. 

But realistically the game is $20 , because they know its not as good as D3 :)

 

I mean this says it all ,  any fanboy of TL2 is the minority

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/05/11/diablo-iii-is-amazons-most-pre-ordered-pc-title-ever/ 

 

 

  simmihi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/10
Posts: 514

5/13/12 4:52:50 AM#233
Originally posted by sushimees

Here's a link to a comparison: http://www.invisioncommunity.co.uk/featurespage/843-diablo-3-vs-torchlight-2.html

Also, how is $20 for D3 and $40 for B.net any better in your opinion? I can't play D3 without B.net. B.net is part of the game so I have to buy it to play. What's the point of your argument?

The comparison on that page is so superficialy done it's not even funny. Nothing about skill variety, mob abilities, itemisation. TL2 wins at character customisation because they have a better character creator? Those guys don't have a clue what character customisation means in a game like this, they are making fools of themselves by posting that. They cannot even spell, what's "longativity"? Only a desperate TL2 fanboy and/or D3 hater would use that link as a reference.

  ArEf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/11
Posts: 255

Just say RF. :)

 
OP  5/13/12 4:57:44 AM#234
Originally posted by simmihi
Originally posted by sushimees

Here's a link to a comparison: http://www.invisioncommunity.co.uk/featurespage/843-diablo-3-vs-torchlight-2.html

Also, how is $20 for D3 and $40 for B.net any better in your opinion? I can't play D3 without B.net. B.net is part of the game so I have to buy it to play. What's the point of your argument?

The comparison on that page is so superficialy done it's not even funny. Nothing about skill variety, mob abilities, itemisation. TL2 wins at character customisation because they have a better character creator? Those guys don't have a clue what character customisation means in a game like this, they are making fools of themselves by posting that. They cannot even spell, what's "longativity"? Only a desperate TL2 fanboy and/or D3 hater would use that link as a reference.

By the way, Torchlight 2 wins out on all them, too. ;)

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  Kuinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/11
Posts: 1990

5/13/12 5:35:30 AM#235
Originally posted by ArEf


The CoD-esque levelling mechanics are laughable, as are the ways abilities work. Every level, you get a new ability or a new upgrade for one of your abilities, and you will ALWAYS have every ability at max level. You have no choice in what order you get them. The only thing that distinguises you from other players is gear.

Switching out abilities gives you a 10 second (or thereabouts, not sure on the exact figure) cooldown on that ability, which means switching out abilities or having more than six active abilities is unfeasible, which can lead to situations where you get attacked and don't have the right ability for the situation.

Graphically, the game is horrible. It reminds me of Icewind Dale 2 in terms of looks. You could say it has a certain style to it, if you thought style could mean "looks like it's from early 21st century". Low polygon models, ugly arse textures and a general bad colour scheme just makes the game seem faded and already aged. Compare it with, say, Diablo or Diablo 2 in modern resolutions and they don't look nearly as aged as this game.

 

 

Half of what you described sounds pretty great actually when reading between the lines, or assuming that you just dont get it, you are supposed to customize your abilities in the game to make them different from everyone else.

 

Icewind Dale 2 was a 2D game, not only that but people knows already how Diablo 3 looks, so when you try to talk it down by comparing to an old 2D game, one can only wonder is there something wrong with your eyes, your graphics card, or is it just blind hate?

 

If you honestly were just waiting for D2 with new skin, it's kinda ironic to say "worst of what everyone was expecting" since the last I checked everyone has been expecting something different from new games instead of the same old same old.

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1151

5/13/12 5:46:09 AM#236
Originally posted by ArEf
Originally posted by Adhesive33

Give Path of Exile a shot if you can grab a key somewhere, I'm finding it to be very addicting, and the skill system is exellent. 

Planning on doing so. Mainly can't wait until Torchlight 2 comes out. :(

I agree with this, PoE is pretty good, I found it alot better than diablo 3 comparing their betas, it even looks better graphical than diablo 3, Which is sad when you consider PoE is made by a new dev team with way less of a budget tham d3 had.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  Kykyryz-a

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/10
Posts: 114

5/13/12 5:51:24 AM#237

D3 same  as Apple products :) (they aiming for same ppl who already got their games)   they actually dont care about price tag   it can easily be 100$ , as majority of ppl will buy it not because its "great game", But only because its Blizzard -- they play WoW or saw  advertisment all over the place.  soo 80% ppl will buy  it only because  they kinda "must to"   on the other hand  TL2 bested  D3 in everythg  but only "few" ppl know about it.

only 1 fact what you cant play with friends LAN  and custom characters  will be enought .  as its not  same 2000 year   its awfull to see only 5 diff chars all other the place with only diff weapons in hands. needless to say  TL2 provide random dungeons  so you dont stuck at same game  but with 4 lvl of "click hardness"

  Siveria

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 1151

5/13/12 5:51:36 AM#238
Originally posted by will75

I look foward to playing gw2, d3 seems to have a lot of people hating on it. Which means they have vested interest in POE and tl2.  have you actually seen any videos of TL2? Really? You're looking foward to that? 

 

I think d3 has massive potential and they will easily be the hottest selling game of 2012. Even if GW2 is as amazing as it seems, different genre. But d3 will stand alone, doesn't mean i'll be playing it all that much when gw2 launches, but it'll be a fun month or 2 until it does.

 

There has been so little seen and played with in beta, it's like saying you decided not to buy d2 because the demo runs of blood raven were boring and too easy.

 

 

LOL?

I kinda think the reason they let you access so little in the beta is just because of how bad the game is past that. I can see no real reason to just beta testing a low level start of the game and never testing the higher level content. It feels like blizz is gonna pull an Age of Conan, where Tortage was great, then you got out of it and on the mainland  and it was like "Where'd that awesome game i was playing go?"  it turned to complete garbage past the starting zone.

 

Since the beta has been so limited I am kinda worried that this is what is going to happen, why else would they hide the higher level stuff for so long.

Being a pessimist is a win-win pattern of thinking. If you're a pessimist (I'll admit that I am!) you're either:

A. Proven right (if something bad happens)

or

B. Pleasantly surprised (if something good happens)

Either way, you can't lose! Try it out sometime!

  MikkelB

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/06
Posts: 239

5/13/12 8:35:54 AM#239
Originally posted by sushimees
Originally posted by Aori
Originally posted by sushimees
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by ArEf
Originally posted by Adhesive33

Give Path of Exile a shot if you can grab a key somewhere, I'm finding it to be very addicting, and the skill system is exellent. 

Planning on doing so. Mainly can't wait until Torchlight 2 comes out. :(

LOL at Torchlight 2.

 

Steampunk with giant fonts is cool amirite?

 

TL1 was a 1 week game at best.  TL2 may be a 3 week game until mods come out.

If you compare TL 2 and Diablo 3 on paper, then it's clear that TL 2 is already a bigger game. Honestly, if you compare both games then you can't really justify the price of D3. The only reason Blizzard can put a price tag on D3, is because it's built up on 2 previous installments which were very successful. Torchlight is not as popular as D3 but still manages to have more features in the game than D3, yet the price is only $20.

How does TL2 have more features than D3. As for the pricetag bit, you're paying $20 for D3 and $40 for battle.net.. that better?

Here's a link to a comparison: http://www.invisioncommunity.co.uk/featurespage/843-diablo-3-vs-torchlight-2.html

Also, how is $20 for D3 and $40 for B.net any better in your opinion? I can't play D3 without B.net. B.net is part of the game so I have to buy it to play. What's the point of your argument?

Hilarious comparison is hilarious I guess. The first point is already wrong. Diablo 3 features dyeing your equipment. So much for the "You cannot customize how your character looks, so you have the same design for everyone" bit. For all we know the New Game + is boring too. Randomized zones without context is just grinding gear. Woohoo. For what? More random zones. For me these games are about starting weak, slaying a gazillion monsters, getting gear, getting stronger and defeat the ultimate baddie. Perhaps again on a new difficulty (Inferno looks like a challenge), but more often then not, I'm done with the game. The new game + feature reminds me of Jagged Alliance: Deadly Games with the infinite mission spawner. Was fun for 10 missions, then shit starts to repeat and turn ugly fast. But hey, that's just me.

The always online feature still bugs me a bit. At least it's not so damn intrusive and annoying as the Assassin's Creed DRM, but still. However, I'm never without a form of Internet, as are most gamers if I had to guess, so it's not really a problem anymore to be honest. If they can manage to keep the bots and stuff out for the most part, I'm willing to "suffer" the "always online" bit. Time will tell I guess.

Personally I don't give a rat's ass about modding, but true, having mod options is always better then not having them. LAN I won't miss at all. Getting a LAN is more trouble then just meeting up on the Internet for me.

For future reference, don't pick a comparison like that one. They're so subjective that's not even funny anymore. Commenting on Diablo 3's features like they're nothing new and stuff, but just copy+pasting the Torchlight 2 features (directly from the Torchlight 2 site too). Quality stuff 

  Leodious

Novice Member

Joined: 2/28/06
Posts: 782

The best way to travel is by means of imagination.

5/13/12 12:48:40 PM#240
Originally posted by Aori
Originally posted by Leodious
Originally posted by dzoni87
Originally posted by rammur65

Just a little info of the day torchlight is headed by the orginal guys from the original diablo games matter fact they were in the process of making diablo 3 but because it didnt meet the expectations of vivendi they were let go where they ran off and created flagship games then they got canned because main guy left or something like that now they started up on runic games.

Just reminded me on this article

http://kotaku.com/5761172/this-is-what-diablo-iii-looked-like-a-long-time-ago/gallery/1

Article and couple of Screenshots of what could be Diablo 3 by, today's Runic games...

This is what bugs me the most about this issue. People mock Torchlight and say DIII is the best because a tiny two-bit team like Runic couldn't make a game as good as the old Diablo games.

 

 

Except they did.

Not sure what you're on about with this comment. I don't recall within the last couple months anyone saying Runic was a 2bit team and they couldn't make a game as good as the old diablo.

So you've not been reading this thread? In which multiple people claim Torchlight is a joke when compared to Diablo III?

"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."

— John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman

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