I don't know, but after playing BWE, it sure is hard to go back to other games.

Tera is good, but only because the combat is awesome. The rest of the game is the same old, same old.

Originally posted by AZHokie54

I don't know, but after playing BWE, it sure is hard to go back to other games.

Tera is good, but only because the combat is awesome. The rest of the game is the same old, same old.

same here. 

i agree to with Tera combat was good and fun (the graphics were amazing , but i hate the characters) the problem is the rest. in the rest i feel was like any wow clone, nothing diferent except the good combat system and the amazing graphics

You really have to becareful about how you describe the definition of a "Paradigm Shift". After all, its real purpose is not to show what has occured through evolution, but what unproven facts (theories) are now held as the current beliefs of the majority as a whole.

Just because a theory takes the place of a previous theory, doesn't make it a better more evolved one. It is essentially like comparing fads that fade with time as they are replaced with new ones. One fad is never better than another if those who view the fads are always equally viewing them in the same light as previous ones.

In short.. Paradigm Shift does not equal evolution.

Who cares?  The game is doing something no studio has had the balls to do and it's turning out to be a fun ride.  I don't need it to wash my clothes or teach me algebra.

Originally posted by albaficass

Originally posted by Eir_S

Who cares?  The game is doing something no studio has had the balls to do and it's turning out to be a fun ride.  I don't need it to wash my clothes or teach me algebra.

taking all the features from warhammer-rift is revolutionary ?

didnt know that...well i guess its the gw2 fangirls way

There is so much wrong with this.  If you haven't played, and at this point i'm CERTAIN you haven't, then you wouldn't make such an asanine statement.  They took ideas and evolved them. I guarantee nothing is "copied".  Fine, you don't like it. Move the hell on please.

Originally posted by Roybe

Evolutionary:  Of or relating to or produced by a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage

Revolutionary:  Markedly new or introducing fundamental change

 

Pardigm Shift:  a change in the basic assumptions within the ruling theory of science. (i.e. flat earth shifting to spherical earth, geocentric orbit changed to heliocentric orbit) This idea has also come to be used colloquially to mean changes that once implemented, do not allow for backtracking, since the new way of doing things is so much better that no one would want to do things the old way again.  Think about having a camera, phone, and music player as one device compared to carrying around a camera, a phone, and a walkman separately...you could do this, but why would you?

 

... snip

Will this become the pardigm shift that everyone is waiting for?  That will require a crystal ball at this moment.  I don't have one of those.  This is business.  Business is run by profit margins.  This could very well be a huge game changer in the genre of MMORPG's IF the sales of the release, subsequent expansions, and the cash shop, generate the profit levels of the monster MMO's of the past.  This will create outright copying of the games design and we'll see gw2 clones everywhere. If it does 'alright', then further evolutions based on it are definitely going to occur, as companies strive for the success of past MMO's.  If GW2 fails to capture a significant part of the market?  It's just another footnote in the dearth of MMORPG companies that wish they had done something else. For many people, if this game does not become the 20'teens' version of WoW, the game will have failed in their eyes.  I'm not amongst that crowd.  However, I do think that for a game that is trying to bring originality back to a genre that has moved so far towards cookie cutter systems, I give them huge amounts of thanks (as well as $$$ for the CE!).

 

TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.

Yes, Yes and Yes.

Some features are evolutions of MMO design, some are revolutionary and the entire package makes it impossible for those who embrace the game to ever go back to the way things were before. How much of the MMO gaming population will make the paradigm shift and how many will miss it? I don't know, but the game will completely alter the expections that many will have for all MORPGs moving forward and I predict the game will have a huge impact on MMORPG design for years to come.

Originally posted by albaficass

Originally posted by Eir_S

Who cares?  The game is doing something no studio has had the balls to do and it's turning out to be a fun ride.  I don't need it to wash my clothes or teach me algebra.

taking all the features from warhammer-rift is revolutionary ?

didnt know that...well i guess its the gw2 fangirls way

That's not even what I said.  If you're going to be incendiary towards me, at least argue with a point I actually posted.  Oh too late, welcome to Block Land, home of the trolls.

Originally posted by albaficass

Originally posted by Eir_S

Who cares?  The game is doing something no studio has had the balls to do and it's turning out to be a fun ride.  I don't need it to wash my clothes or teach me algebra.

taking all the features from warhammer-rift is revolutionary ?

didnt know that...well i guess its the gw2 fangirls way

Are you butt-hurt that one company was smart enough to do it and do it well?

even if it was an 100% copy of the game that cannot be named (wow)...as long as its fun to play and the gameplay feels fresh and exciting..i couldnt care even a tiny tiny bit

I have a lot of problems with overbranding and overlabelling things. After all, different things represent different things for each one of us. Hoverwer, it seems clear that Anet was very intentionally challenging some MMO tenets with some of the design decisions used in GW2.

I think they have a different vision on how to make and run a MMO. And, i must say I think their decisions are very, very sound. Now, let's see just how many people agree with them.

Originally posted by mWo4life

IMO GW2 is just over-reted and over-hyped. I bought pre-order, played beta and I didn't like it. It doesn't matter if it is revolutionary or not. At the end of the day is about whether ppl will play it or not. I know I don't like it and I regret spending 60 dollars or so on GW2. 

What and how you wrote give signs that you are a lier.

GW2 is going to be a great game.  That being said, there is nothing overly revolutionary or innovative about any of it.

Originally posted by Roybe

TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.

Short Answer, NO

Long Answer? I don't think GW2 is as "revoluntionary" as most would like to think it is. I played GW1 day 1 of release for about 3months and then quit because I "completed the game" pretty much. Rolled about 3 more toons, finished them out completely, got everything I wanted nodded my head and quit. A good story, but low retention rate for GW1.

GW2? I've seen MANY elements of GW2 in many other games, and they brought it together in a way these previous games couldn't. Does that mean GW2 is "Revolutionary"? Absolutely not.

-Similarly, does that make GW2 a "Bad Game"? Aboslutely not, but it doesn't make it the next "WoW Killer".

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

I have a lot of problems with overbranding and overlabelling things. After all, different things represent different things for each one of us. Hoverwer, it seems clear that Anet was very intentionally challenging some MMO tenets with some of the design decisions used in GW2.

I think they have a different vision on how to make and run a MMO. And, i must say I think their decisions are very, very sound. Now, let's see just how many people agree with them.

It seems like someone's working very hard to set up a "but they LIED" anti-marketing attack.  Not quite sure why, but once the question about paradigms gets answered, we'll proceed on to the follow-up troll.

The key is the setup pedantic quibbling over terminology, pretty easy to find pedants hanging out on mmorpg.com.

Working way too hard for it.

I am in the beta.

I have played a lot of mmo´s  (yes I am an old fart)

GW2 is not really evolutionary... but as I played it I thought many a time "Thats how they (the other companys) should have done it.... !!!"

GW2 is the first MMO in a long long time that gripped me like Royce Gracie in his prime

It mata leoned me from start to the end of the first beta...

See you ingame

Originally posted by RebelScum99

No. 

 

Yes.

Like all things, only if the game succeeds will it really be as evolutionary, revolutionary and paradigm shifting as the Anet team wanted it to be.

The debate here shouldn't be about whether the game itself is/or isn't innovative, what will define it is the success it will/or not have at launch and afterwards, posts here have brought up that the game uses things from other games so it's not new---I disagree, for example both rift and warhammer online brought on their own version of "dynamic events" which I think both failed miserably because what both games brought about was a incomplete and broken system that quickly loses the players interest, so it's a failed version of something that lately every game seem to claim they have.

Bottomline is, for me it is possible to brand any game as being "innovative" and so on, as long as their version of the system be it something like the dynamic events or combat system...works in the truest sense of it. Any game can come up with features and brand them names but we cant all accept it as it is if they fail right at the start---is GW2 revolutionary and become a example to other games to follow? Nobody can say yes or no until we see how far this game can reach but having played beta, I can see that it at least has the potential to be that, it's been a long time since the beta of a game hasn't disappointed and lowered my overall hype for it

I would wait till the game is released before you herald it as the next coming of christ :\

Originally posted by Mardermann

GW2 is not really evolutionary... but as I played it I thought many a time "Thats how they (the other companys) should have done it.... !!!"

You kinda contradict yourself here, old man (I'm an old fart too ;)).

The fact that the game made you think "Thats how they (the other companys) should have done it.... !!!" makes it evolutionary. Not revolutionary, but definitely evolutionary.

The point that makes GW2 revolutionary in my opinion is that the game manages to encourage players to play TOGETHER instead of fighting each over even when they are on the same side. No more loot drama, no more node ninjaing, no more kill stealing. In PvE, it's cooperation all the way, with everyone participating being rewarded for their effort. And for competition, you have two forms of PvP to play.

The only people who will not like that are the griefers - but who cares about those?

Originally posted by Roybe

Evolutionary:  Of or relating to or produced by a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage

Revolutionary:  Markedly new or introducing fundamental change

 

Pardigm Shift:  a change in the basic assumptions within the ruling theory of science. (i.e. flat earth shifting to spherical earth, geocentric orbit changed to heliocentric orbit) This idea has also come to be used colloquially to mean changes that once implemented, do not allow for backtracking, since the new way of doing things is so much better that no one would want to do things the old way again.  Think about having a camera, phone, and music player as one device compared to carrying around a camera, a phone, and a walkman separately...you could do this, but why would you?

The MMO community seems to have issues with the use of these terms when discussing Guild Wars 2. I'm hoping that by defining the 3 terms that seem to be causing the issue, we can all come to agreement that Arenanet took evolutionary steps in the genre of MMORPG's, to introduce a revolutionary product, that should, if accepted by the MMO gaming community, create a paradigm shift.

 

First we have to agree on the supposition that an MMO will always be an MMO.  That means the game exists within a given environment, with an overarching story, and that large numbers of people in the game play in such a way as to discover the overarching story through participation.

 

MMO's evolved over time and introduced some interesting, but problematic issues into the game type. When World of Warcraft hit the scene it was obvious that their game was evolutionary in it's smoothness and systems, borrowing from previous games and improving significantly upon the designs, which resulted in revolutionary gameplay.  The pardigm shift Blizzard created, not obviously apparent,  enshrined the toxic behaviors within the overall system that have become associated with MMO's.  Reward systems (whether loot based, character based (leveling), or competitive based (PvP), have issues related to grind (the repetitive play of a particular feature to receive a particular reward), player griefing (in game play this can be considered anything anti-social and abusive), and/or 'theft'  (this can be related to either fraudulent exploits of other people, stealing someones reward of time and/or effort invested (including kill stealing, Player Killing (PK'ers steal peoples time at a minimum)  etc.), as well as real life hacking of accounts).  Add to these problems, the overarching problem of game developers and publishers, building in any of the above within their game with the express purpose of maintaining monthly subscription fee and it should come as no surprise that the MMO playing field became more and more toxic to an increasing number of players over time.

 

All the GW2 development team did was ask, 'Why are people unhappy in these games?” and 'Is it possible to remove many of these issues, while providing a fun experience for all the various types of players in these types of games?'  Thus GW1 was born.  By using a model of highly instanced play areas and separated PvP, we, as players, saw a nice community being built around the lack of what many consider the reasons to play an MMORPG. As this experiment grew, Arenanet started looking at making a true MMORPG, with the same lack of toxic issues.

This brings us to the above questions.  Yes, Arenanet did take many items from many games and include them into theirs.  It's my suggestion that this is where evolution comes about.  It's not necessary to reinvent a wheel, but it is better to make it out of rubber than wood. 

 

The genius of this group of designers was a creation of a MMORPG game system WITH a planned goal of removing toxic play.  Their realization, definition, and removal of what is toxic in current MMORPG's, while still creating a fun and challenging environment to play in for the vast MAJORITY of MMO players is Arenanet's revolutionary change.

 

Will this become the pardigm shift that everyone is waiting for?  That will require a crystal ball at this moment.  I don't have one of those.  This is business.  Business is run by profit margins.  This could very well be a huge game changer in the genre of MMORPG's IF the sales of the release, subsequent expansions, and the cash shop, generate the profit levels of the monster MMO's of the past.  This will create outright copying of the games design and we'll see gw2 clones everywhere. If it does 'alright', then further evolutions based on it are definitely going to occur, as companies strive for the success of past MMO's.  If GW2 fails to capture a significant part of the market?  It's just another footnote in the dearth of MMORPG companies that wish they had done something else. For many people, if this game does not become the 20'teens' version of WoW, the game will have failed in their eyes.  I'm not amongst that crowd.  However, I do think that for a game that is trying to bring originality back to a genre that has moved so far towards cookie cutter systems, I give them huge amounts of thanks (as well as $$$ for the CE!).

 

TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.

Without darkness there can be no light.

Without evil there can be no good.

In my opinion, by removing all what you refer to as "toxic" play, you remove interactions between players. Many gameplay styles, based on morality will get lost in the process of shielding the players from evil.

Instead of removing all "toxic" play, instead make it possible for the players to retaliate, through a good player justice system, where players can track down evil-doers, for instance.