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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Until Players Become More Important than Shareholders / Investors...

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34 posts found
  Mythios11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/18/11
Posts: 131

Confucious say: "Man who go to bed with itchy butt, wake up with smelly finger"

 
OP  5/10/12 4:57:07 PM#1

.... games will continue to be released before they are ready

.... betas will continue to be sales events instead of actually helping to improve games

....  cash shops and character service fees will continue to infiltrate even subscription based games.

....  PR spins and false information will continue to delay improvements to games that need help.

....  MMO's will continue to cater to non-mmo players.

 

This is just a brief list of negative trends in the genre that seem to only be getting worse from year to year.   

The real question is, how do we as players help to stop these trends??

Most would say vote with your wallet but at the same time most MMO players I know (myself included) run out and buy whatever the latest game is in hopes that it will somehow be better than all the other mediocre releases of the past 6 or 7 years.

 

 

  Nevulus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1290

5/10/12 4:59:35 PM#2

can't be stopped.

The playerbase is already too segmented & divided.

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 3006

5/10/12 5:05:07 PM#3

Gamers are the customers of gaming companies. Every gaming company has to take into account both the interests of its customers and its shareholders. Neglecting shareholders is a HUGE NO NO.

Your post shows complete ignorance. Do you even know how a company interacts with its shareholders? Customers, of course, should not be neglected. But you can't say f*** shareholders and do whatever our customers want.

I think MMO players are just big crybabies. Non-MMO players don't QQ so much. Other games are successful. But then again so many MMO players are waaaaaaaaaaaaay too serious and get all worked up over their games. 

Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20659

5/10/12 5:12:53 PM#4
Originally posted by Mythios11

....  MMO's will continue to cater to non-mmo players.


 

 

This is just arrogance. A player is a player.

MMOs are games .. and i will only play those which are fun to ME .. not designed to some hypothetical "mmo player".

  SoulOfRaziel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 411

5/10/12 5:16:10 PM#5

There is no scape... 

  Larsa

Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 992

5/10/12 5:58:56 PM#6
Originally posted by Mythios11   ...

Most would say vote with your wallet but at the same time most MMO players I know (myself included) run out and buy whatever the latest game is in hopes that it will somehow be better than all the other mediocre releases of the past 6 or 7 years.

Hordes of people run out and buy everything - and not even because they hope that the new FotM will be better. Many are so conditioned by marketing and PR that they think they know it. And it doesn't even matter what game it is - some people currently praising GW2 as best game of all times did the same with SWToR half a year ago, they're naturally born fanbois I reckon. ;-)

Not my problem anyway, I haven't played a themepark since LotRO and stick to the indie sandboxes instead.

I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

5/10/12 6:20:34 PM#7

Players will never be more important. The goal of a business is to make money. With that being said... Until there is some alignment between what players want and what companies are willing to provide, we both lose.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3876

RIP City of Heroes!

5/10/12 6:33:26 PM#8
Originally posted by Mythios11

.... games will continue to be released before they are ready

.... betas will continue to be sales events instead of actually helping to improve games

....  cash shops and character service fees will continue to infiltrate even subscription based games.

....  PR spins and false information will continue to delay improvements to games that need help.

....  MMO's will continue to cater to non-mmo players.

 

This is just a brief list of negative trends in the genre that seem to only be getting worse from year to year.   

The real question is, how do we as players help to stop these trends??

Most would say vote with your wallet but at the same time most MMO players I know (myself included) run out and buy whatever the latest game is in hopes that it will somehow be better than all the other mediocre releases of the past 6 or 7 years.

 

 

Isn't this really about you needing to feel important?  WE are all just one of many.

  Indol

Novice Member

Joined: 2/10/12
Posts: 192

5/10/12 6:39:34 PM#9
Originally posted by fivoroth

Gamers are the customers of gaming companies. Every gaming company has to take into account both the interests of its customers and its shareholders. Neglecting shareholders is a HUGE NO NO.

Your post shows complete ignorance. Do you even know how a company interacts with its shareholders? Customers, of course, should not be neglected. But you can't say f*** shareholders and do whatever our customers want.

I think MMO players are just big crybabies. Non-MMO players don't QQ so much. Other games are successful. But then again so many MMO players are waaaaaaaaaaaaay too serious and get all worked up over their games. 

You sound fairly serious and angry for someone complaining about people being serious and angry =)

 

At any rate, the genre is already experiencing the first signs of a 'renaissance' with GW2 and TSW ditching some of the worn out tropes of mmo's. Games like Planetside 2 , Archeage, The Repopulation and several other titles are going to take it even further, completely shedding the whole 'quests, raids, battlegrounds, gear grind, hotbars zzzzzzzzz.... ' template in favor of original and inspired gameplay.

 

If I had to guess, i'd say it looks like the worst of it is behind us.

  Karahandras

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/08
Posts: 1669

All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing

5/10/12 6:40:09 PM#10
Originally posted by Larsa
Originally posted by Mythios11   ...

Most would say vote with your wallet but at the same time most MMO players I know (myself included) run out and buy whatever the latest game is in hopes that it will somehow be better than all the other mediocre releases of the past 6 or 7 years.

Hordes of people run out and buy everything - and not even because they hope that the new FotM will be better. Many are so conditioned by marketing and PR that they think they know it. And it doesn't even matter what game it is - some people currently praising GW2 as best game of all times did the same with SWToR half a year ago, they're naturally born fanbois I reckon. ;-)

Not my problem anyway, I haven't played a themepark since LotRO and stick to the indie sandboxes instead.

  Ashen_X

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/22/10
Posts: 365

5/10/12 6:47:20 PM#11
Originally posted by Mythios11

.... games will continue to be released before they are ready

.... betas will continue to be sales events instead of actually helping to improve games

....  cash shops and character service fees will continue to infiltrate even subscription based games.

....  PR spins and false information will continue to delay improvements to games that need help.

....  MMO's will continue to cater to non-mmo players.

 

This is just a brief list of negative trends in the genre that seem to only be getting worse from year to year.   

The real question is, how do we as players help to stop these trends??

Most would say vote with your wallet but at the same time most MMO players I know (myself included) run out and buy whatever the latest game is in hopes that it will somehow be better than all the other mediocre releases of the past 6 or 7 years.

 

 

The importance of the playerbase in a game is measured in terms of revenue generation to cover the costs of development and to provide a return on investment for investors/shareholders.

The only way for players to be even as important as investors is to be the investors themselves. We can never be more important.

 

The only way for a consumer to make a stand against mediocre products is to refuse to buy them. So long as consumers accept(are willing to pay for) hype in place of accurate product descriptions, promises of eventual fixes in place of quality, and regurgitation of stale ideas rather than innovation, companies will sell it to them.

 

A good way of looking at it is this:

Companies pay attention to what sells. They assume that what sells is what is desired. If you buy crap they will assume that is what you want (or are at least willing) to buy.

As long as we pointedly, repeatedly, and vehemently tell the development studios/publishers that we are willing to pay for crap tehy will sell it to us. This is inherent in a supply/demand based economy.

 

It is silly to complain that companies are selling us exactly what we tell them we want to buy.

When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.

  Maelkor

Novice Member

Joined: 8/20/05
Posts: 462

5/10/12 6:51:36 PM#12

The one thing you overlook. The best way for a shareholder to make money is for the company to put out a good product that millions will want to play for years.

Some myths - Betas are only used for sales events. The Truth - Every game has a closed beta in which a small number of people participate in - This could be from a few hundred to 10,000. Beta Events themselves are there for several reasons. When the game is near finished it is used as a marketing tool and rightly so. They are also used to test their game against the masses that will show up at release. They arent interested in the little bugs (thats what closed beta is about) they are interested in the wierd stuff that shows up due to a unique hardware/software combination that you just cant find from a small number of testers - in addition they are looking to stress their systems to see where they will fail. Lastly they are looking for the exploits that show up when systems are stressed and large numbers of people are bound to find.

I have found very few games that have outright false information and these always crash and burn quickly thereby causing their investors to lose money. I have found games with extra Hype wherein the negatives of a game are overlooked and the positives are magnified. Its up to you the consumer to figure that stuff out before you spend your money.

Cash shops only work if people use them. I really dont care what a particular model a game uses. I only care if that model works for me. I do not spend money on games I dont like. That is the best incentive you can give to any company doing things that you consider bad/wrong/unethical. You have all the power.

While it is definately true that current MMO's cater to the single player crowd - This is due in large part to the lack of vision current developers have. I contend that a developer that makes a good group oriented game with no real handholding could make a boatload of money as its a niche that is currently not filled.

In the end investors invest in things they believe will make them money. Rightly so - I personally dont want to throw away my hard earned money on a losing proposition.

 

The last paragraph is the real reason MMO's are the way they are. You are the problem - not the proverbial shareholder or investor. You are telling them they are doing things right and to keep doing them. I only buy products I like. Sometimes I get it wrong - but usually I am happy with the money I spent.

  mgilbrtsn

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/14/09
Posts: 1310

He who fights and runs away... misses out on the loot

5/10/12 6:55:32 PM#13

It's kind of a faulty logic, IMO.  A company wants to make it's share holders happy.  The only way that they will be happy is sustained financial success of the company.  In order to achieve that success is by having a good revenue stream.  This revenue stream is made by making a game that appeals to gamers and thus has subscribers (or whatever revenue model you choose).  

 

Some arguments that i've heard is that they make a game, seek a quick buck, then back out of it quickly, by not supporting and basically taking a hands off approach.  This might make day traders happy, but once again, people you would consider shareholders would not be pleased, because shares would rapidly drop in price.

 

The simple fact is that game companies try to make a game that they think will make money.  In order to do that, they don't design the game for your desires, no my desires.  Instead, they look at the market as a whole, and tailor things towards them.  That is where the money is to be made.  Why so many WoW/EQ type games... because that's where the money is.  Not in sandboxes (sadly), not is pvp/full loot (sadly), and not whatever niche your in.  They look at the Macro, not the Micro.

They are coming for you!

  miagisan

Novice Member

Joined: 7/28/06
Posts: 5298

5/10/12 6:57:39 PM#14

Take out a loan, hire developers and release a game to your standards. Oh and by the way you might lose it all in the process....GOOD LUCK!

 

WHat a stupid comment...of course these companies are in it for the money...thats the whole purpose of a company.

  Xzen

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

5/10/12 7:00:09 PM#15
Originally posted by Indol
Originally posted by fivoroth

Gamers are the customers of gaming companies. Every gaming company has to take into account both the interests of its customers and its shareholders. Neglecting shareholders is a HUGE NO NO.

Your post shows complete ignorance. Do you even know how a company interacts with its shareholders? Customers, of course, should not be neglected. But you can't say f*** shareholders and do whatever our customers want.

I think MMO players are just big crybabies. Non-MMO players don't QQ so much. Other games are successful. But then again so many MMO players are waaaaaaaaaaaaay too serious and get all worked up over their games. 

You sound fairly serious and angry for someone complaining about people being serious and angry =)

 

At any rate, the genre is already experiencing the first signs of a 'renaissance' with GW2 and TSW ditching some of the worn out tropes of mmo's. Games like Planetside 2 , Archeage, The Repopulation and several other titles are going to take it even further, completely shedding the whole 'quests, raids, battlegrounds, gear grind, hotbars zzzzzzzzz.... ' template in favor of original and inspired gameplay.

 

If I had to guess, i'd say it looks like the worst of it is behind us.

I mostly agree with this. Looking to GW2 and ArcheAge. Hopefully they deliver.

  User Deleted
5/10/12 7:06:52 PM#16
Originally posted by Maelkor

 The last paragraph is the real reason MMO's are the way they are. You are the problem - not the proverbial shareholder or investor. You are telling them they are doing things right and to keep doing them. I only buy products I like. Sometimes I get it wrong - but usually I am happy with the money I spent.

True.  Doesn't matter who decided to launch a mess with "acceptable" amounts of bugs or missing features.  In the end, the reason they keep doing it is people keep playing them.  People keep their subs even when they aren't playing.  People keep paying expansion pack prices for map packs.  People buy everything from shops and get bored.  They keep complaining about it, but they keep buying.

 

Whatever you pay for is what they will push.  The state of gaming is exactly where the gaming community has pushed it with their voting dollar.  They only truly care about your opinion when you stop paying.  I'm not saying to try to leverage your opinion with threats of canceling either.  Weigh your fun versus your pay.  Make your decision.

  Calerxes

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/06/09
Posts: 1660

5/10/12 7:37:37 PM#17
Originally posted by paroxysm
Originally posted by Maelkor

 The last paragraph is the real reason MMO's are the way they are. You are the problem - not the proverbial shareholder or investor. You are telling them they are doing things right and to keep doing them. I only buy products I like. Sometimes I get it wrong - but usually I am happy with the money I spent.

True.  Doesn't matter who decided to launch a mess with "acceptable" amounts of bugs or missing features.  In the end, the reason they keep doing it is people keep playing them.  People keep their subs even when they aren't playing.  People keep paying expansion pack prices for map packs.  People buy everything from shops and get bored.  They keep complaining about it, but they keep buying.

 

Whatever you pay for is what they will push.  The state of gaming is exactly where the gaming community has pushed it with their voting dollar.  They only truly care about your opinion when you stop paying.  I'm not saying to try to leverage your opinion with threats of canceling either.  Weigh your fun versus your pay.  Make your decision.

 

I agree with these two posts but I think it goes even deeper. Developers watch the way players play as well and they see trends and they design around those trends, so when players work out the best most efficient way to level then post it on the web and players follow that linear path to cap, developers design games that are linear, when someone designs a 3rd party app like say, a quest helper, and it is used by thousands of players dev's put one in their game, when players are given the choice to either group or play solo and the vast majority play solo games dev's design more solo content and so on. Companies want their games to sell so they watch what we as players do and try to build games to fit us so we buy them.

This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up™ the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.

  sunrunner

Novice Member

Joined: 12/16/07
Posts: 8

5/11/12 3:37:11 AM#18
Originally posted by Mythios11

.... games will continue to be released before they are ready

.... betas will continue to be sales events instead of actually helping to improve games

....  cash shops and character service fees will continue to infiltrate even subscription based games.

....  PR spins and false information will continue to delay improvements to games that need help.

....  MMO's will continue to cater to non-mmo players.

 

This is just a brief list of negative trends in the genre that seem to only be getting worse from year to year.   

The real question is, how do we as players help to stop these trends??

Most would say vote with your wallet but at the same time most MMO players I know (myself included) run out and buy whatever the latest game is in hopes that it will somehow be better than all the other mediocre releases of the past 6 or 7 years.

 

 


You're adorable!

We've been telling them for years what we want to buy.  Why are you acting all surprised when they make exactly (and only) what we've been telling them?  Oh.  Right.  "Words".  Our words are utterly irrelevant.  Our wallets are important.  Our actions are important.  Our words are sound and fury, signifying nothing.  By our deeds, you shall know us.

Dollar, dollar, bill, yo.  Heh.

  saydur

Novice Member

Joined: 9/15/05
Posts: 185

5/11/12 4:20:19 AM#19
Originally posted by Mythios11

.... games will continue to be released before they are ready

.... betas will continue to be sales events instead of actually helping to improve games

....  cash shops and character service fees will continue to infiltrate even subscription based games.

....  PR spins and false information will continue to delay improvements to games that need help.

....  MMO's will continue to cater to non-mmo players.

 

This is just a brief list of negative trends in the genre that seem to only be getting worse from year to year.   

The real question is, how do we as players help to stop these trends??

Most would say vote with your wallet but at the same time most MMO players I know (myself included) run out and buy whatever the latest game is in hopes that it will somehow be better than all the other mediocre releases of the past 6 or 7 years.

 

Games will constantly be released before they are ready. There is no stopping this one. Dev times are a problem because if the devs had it their way, development time would inflate to unacceptable and unprofitable levels. Meanwhile, the business end wants to compress dev time so short that even rigorous disciplined development from day one would not produce a proper product in time. The longer it takes to release something, the more likely money is being lost on it.

A non-trivial number of "beta" players are just looking to play a new game. Alpha and real closed beta tests are limited time testing to root out game-breaking bugs. "Open beta" is a sales event because most of their so-called testers are really only stress testing the server. Not all beta players are unhelpful, but I've seen some who actively document bugs for later exploitation and have no intention of reporting these bugs. Real bug-killer betas fly under the radar because the average player is worthless in one.

So long as people spend money on cash shops, they shall exist. There is a market for games where cash shop has no impact on gameplay, and there is a market for games where cash shops rule the game with an iron fist. At the very least, a p2p MMO is still going to make more money from a decorative cash shop than they lose from irritated subscribers. The real wake-up call was TF2 going free to play. The sheer infusion of money was so intoxicating that it has been and will be hailed as a magic road to profit until player desires and willingness to spend balances out. Meanwhile, character services such as moving between servers will always cost extra. If it isn't a paid service, it just won't exist. Maybe for the best, but that's a purist talking.

PR spins and false info are troublesome. A highly successful game will not need those. However, they're very useful on cookie cutter Korean jobs or uninspired American games with an expenditure list too long in the first place. When a game is throwing out PR spins, it's usually a case that either the game doesn't have much potential and is really just being squeezed for what little it is worth and run on a shoestring budget, or a case that the game has gone so far on cost overages that the necessary funds to fix major issues are either not there or have been denied. It's a spiral of doom in the first place and only a few games have potential to escape it. Even that takes dedicated GMs/devs who are willing to put in far more than they are paid for to get through hard times, and it's not always a success. The general response from most people involved is to put a bandage on it and hope PR spins can distract from the problem until it can be solved or papered over.

As for catering to non-MMO players, I won't even touch that one. You'd have to explain it a lot better for that one to make sense.

Anyhow, end point is, most MMOs are a business. They can and must make money to be continued. So long as this is true, sub-par MMO quality is fine so long as it makes money. The trouble is, a truly "good" MMO that covers the desires of a significant portion of serious players is expensive to make and maintain. To get any acceptable return on investment, the average income per player would need to be astronomical.

I hate to say it, but making such a game is just not practical. Only a crazy indie dev house with amazing talent, a serious grip on what people want, and mad skill at raising necessary funds to run the servers and pay the staff could even consider such a thing.

That's my cynical view at least.

  rungard

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1037

The Sandbox Foundation does not exist!

5/11/12 6:27:33 AM#20

dont buy crap games from crap companies and the problem will resolve itself.

if you think ea and sony and funcom suck..why are you buying their crap?

just watch how many boxes ESO sells, despite everyone and ther mother hating on that game.

everyone will buy the box, pay the fee and then complain how bad the game is.

 

this is, apparently, how mmo's work. a starved playerbase.

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