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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » EA Blames Casuals For Declining Subs

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234 posts found
  TheLizardbones

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10959

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

5/09/12 1:12:40 PM#101


Originally posted by killion81


Originally posted by lizardbones
 



Originally posted by Wickedjelly

 Their box sales have not exceeded their expectations overall. Initial sales obviously did. Believe it even broke records did it not? Since that time it has dropped off dramatically. They did incredibly well initially. Anyones saying different is simply being ignorant. The question is now though....
Sales are dropping off. The subs are going down. Over a million at this point but on the same token they lost over 24% of their player base within the last quarter. Is this going to continue or is this where it levels off? Really a big question for this game considering their investment and where things go from here.
...and this is all happening before some games come on the market that could very easily bite into the same market SWTOR is fighting for.





Box sales or digital sales doesn't matter. The game sold a lot more than they expected. More than anyone expected.

Of course sales are dropping off and subs are going down. There does not exist a game released since WoW where this hasn't happened. A rational person would look at every single game that's released since WoW, watched the pattern and then realized they have a finite period of time to make money off of a game. This pattern hasn't changed and there's no reason to think SWToR will be any different.

I say the fact that they can wipe their butts with money means they've succeeded. The fact that most games by the 6 month mark have 50% or less of their initial subscriptions means they've succeeded. They didn't make the game I wanted (I wanted the story to remain the focus of the game, but they wandered), but that doesn't mean they've failed or that any doom and gloom prediction is anything other than wishful thinking.

 


 
Based on how retail sales work, I find it unlikely that they have recouped their initial investment at this point.  I would not disagree that the current subscription revenue exceeds operating costs of SWTOR, but I do not believe for a second that all of the costs that went into the development and marketing of the game have been recovered within 4 months of release.  If the financial reports specifically state that the initial investment has been recovered, I will admit I am wrong.  Don't really have time to read them.



Financial reports say that they are currently making money and compared to the same time last year, they are making a lot of money. I haven't seen anything specific on recouping their investment or paying the game off.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

5/09/12 1:13:58 PM#102
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Box sales or digital sales doesn't matter. The game sold a lot more than they expected. More than anyone expected.

Of course sales are dropping off and subs are going down. There does not exist a game released since WoW where this hasn't happened. A rational person would look at every single game that's released since WoW, watched the pattern and then realized they have a finite period of time to make money off of a game. This pattern hasn't changed and there's no reason to think SWToR will be any different.

I say the fact that they can wipe their butts with money means they've succeeded. The fact that most games by the 6 month mark have 50% or less of their initial subscriptions means they've succeeded. They didn't make the game I wanted (I wanted the story to remain the focus of the game, but they wandered), but that doesn't mean they've failed or that any doom and gloom prediction is anything other than wishful thinking.

 

 No it didn't man. Not sure where you're getting this from. Initially? Yes. Overall...no, it hasn't.

The question is where will they land when this is done? Are these drops simply the usual declines one sees or is this going to continue and is it even speeding up? We don't even have exact figures here because of the 1.3 million because it includes the trial accounts. The only feedback given relaying how many of those were actual paying customers was "a significant  percentage". Wtf does that even mean?

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  sk8chalif

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/18/10
Posts: 612

5/09/12 1:16:21 PM#103

No matter who u are hardcore or casual if the game suck, u lose subs, sorry ,


~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

  Magnetia

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/07/11
Posts: 1032

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.

5/09/12 1:18:57 PM#104

I figured people keep subbing to games they enjoy. Hardcore fans started out as casuals until the game keeps them coming back. The company you keep is important too XD

Aren't casuals the people you want to appeal to in order to turn them into hardcore? 

Correct me if i am wrong here but 'good' games are subjective. WoW is good because it's smooth and polished. EvE and Everquest have lasted this long because they cater to their markets. LoL is successful because it's easy to pickup and get into the thick of things. If he says that casuals are the reason for the decline then he probably shouldn't dismiss the idea that it might be because the game isn't meeting new player expectations.

Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?

  orsonstfu

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/08
Posts: 206

5/09/12 1:20:33 PM#105
Originally posted by Magnetia

I figured people keep subbing to games they enjoy. Hardcore fans started out as casuals until the game keeps them coming back. The company you keep is important too XD

Aren't casuals the people you want to appeal to in order to turn them into hardcore? 

Correct me if i am wrong here but 'good' games are subjective. WoW is good because it's smooth and polished. EvE and Everquest have lasted this long because they cater to their markets. LoL is successful because it's easy to pickup and get into the thick of things. If he says that casuals are the reason for the decline then he probably shouldn't dismiss the idea that it might be because the game isn't meeting new player expectations.

 

Thats the exact point that they should take from people leaving your game at any time in the length of the development cycle or patch cycle of your game.

  Souldrainer

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/06
Posts: 1878

5/09/12 1:24:29 PM#106

A Player named Staavis_SC had this to say about the lack of casual appeal on the SWTOR official forums:


My feelings are that some casual gamers probably get a very "non-casual" feeling from the game, due to some of the design choices that have been made.

For example:

1. Costs: This is a big one. There is massive cost attached to EVERYTHING, which gives the game the feeling of being a grinder. Think about the costs associated with:
 

  • Training
  • Speeders / Speeder Training
  • Crafting Training
  • Repairs Mod Removal on Orange Armor Inventory / Bank Slot Increase Legacy Unlocks

You start adding up those costs for someone who isn't out farming crafting materials for the GTN, or farming credits and trash loot to sell, and pretty quickly, it becomes more of a chore to enjoy this game than it needs to be. In several of these instances, other games give these sorts of perks and transactions to players for free. For a casual player that only plays 1-2 hours a day, or maybe 5-8 hours in a week, the costs associated with basic gameplay function can severely damper character progress, or at the least, the fun you have while trying to progress.

2. Solo-Leveling: While Levels 1-25 can be solo'd pretty easily, as you get past Chapter 1, the difficulty of leveling increases substantially. Silver mobs start hitting like Mack trucks, and Golds start hitting like the Incredible Hulk. For a casual player, that may not have a complete grasp on their character's optimal operation, this can make leveling a frustrating task in short order, that even gear can't overcome. I play a Jedi Guardian (DPS Spec) as my main, and in general I am about 1-3 levels over the mobs I am fighting currently. Yet, if I don't have my pocket healer out, those mobs will rip me apart. How is it any fun to get torn apart as a Level 41, by mobs that are Level 38?

3. Flashpoint / Group content access: As of right now, this is very "casual unfriendly" because of the lack of an LFG tool, and thereby necessitates that a person be in a guild in order to do this content, especially on low-pop servers. I am fully aware that Bioware has plans for the LFG tool, but that isn't the point. Right now, in the current Live client, there is no LFG tool, and this is a major hinderance to casual players.

-----------------------

Considering these 3 topics, I can totally believe that casuals would not hesitate to leave this game. 



I agree with his points. SWTOR needs to push away from some of this stuff if it wants to survive in the long run.

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  Mirslp

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/11/10
Posts: 39

5/09/12 1:25:56 PM#107

Dear EA

 

How did you expect to do better? Have you played your own product? If so it wouldnt be such a big surprise.

 

1. SWTOR brought cinematic PVE which in my book is the way forward. It is what Bioware does best. You made the Mass Effect series huge... BUT im not sure if its EA´s fault but ME2 and especially ME3 made excactly the same huge mistake as listed below in point 2. The roleplay element was removed to cater to either really stupid nerds or *cough* KIDS.

2. You catered to the kids. Not only did you choose the new era (being the old....ah whatever) but you went for the graphics of the cartoons on TV. Now im no wiz and i dont have the figures to back this up BUT i think the grunt of the Star Wars fan base (that actually buys computer games themselves) are at least 18+ if not older. Im personally 31. So i really think you catered to the wrong group of people. A guy my age probably wants the old era Star Wars with white Stormtroopers and Walkers. Not this cartoon bullshit. Yes i played SWG.

3. There was no content besides PVE. Stupid stupid stupid. 3 Arenas and PVP that sucks in general.... Its an MMO people... MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER ONLINE. You need the PVP. You cant ask people to PVE all the time. MMO´s are about interaction between players. Besides the battlegrounds and flashpoints there were NO interaction.

4. If you want a game that has the potential to harvest huge credits both in followers, money and subscribers you need to do something original or at least make an effort to cater to both adults and kids alike (Hard to do if not nearly impossible). I would like to point out a game like Archeage. Its not released i know and its not original BUT it seems to take all the cool features from different games and putting them into one platform. Not original but verry clever. SWTOR was neither original nor was it clever.

5. Side activities... Tsk tsk tsk. We cant PVE 24/7 as i already mentioned. Many turn to crafting. Personally i love the crafting aspect of the MMO´s but have only found Vanguards to be deep enough (Mortal online surpasses it maybe but too many bugs). I can only speak for myself but i think im not alone when i state that we want other deep activities than just the standard PVE and PVP that design idiots (Lazy people) think is enough.

 

Im a gamer.... I spent a lot of my spare time playing games over 3 platforms (PC,PS3,XBOX360). I can say as a fact that games has over past years are not improving. You would think that with time came more cool features and innovative gameplay. NO. Instead the big companies such as you own (EA) are catering to kids with the brains of a dove. You are dumbing down games all over. My precious ME is just the last seen brick in the decline of the industry. WAKE UP!

I seriously hope that Archeage is successfull and kicks so much a... that you wake up!!!!! (MMO wise)

If you want an intelligent single player game that you could actually improve and make a HUGE success with: Look at Mount & Blade. If they would just look beyond making stupid expansions and DLC.... this game could be even more epic.

I hope that with the big fails of recent Theme park MMO´s with SWTOR being the most recent that producers rialize that if we want to play WOW we will probably pay blizzard for the original.

  Mothanos

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1904

5/09/12 1:29:49 PM#108

SWTOR could have been so much more then a what it is.

If your making a Star Wars IP at least release it with awesome races and give players a choice to feel unique.

Give people a reason to get hooked, what e got from SWTOR was a story telling single player RPG with a few pvp elemetns that failed right from the start.

Huttball was fun for 100 games, then you puked it out....and all we got was Huttball.....over and over and over again.

I will not mention their pathatic attempt to make a world pvp map. he who played there know the horrors of their so called massive world pvp zone -_-

 

Also the way they did their downtime and patches was shockingly bad.

I have nothing against our USA brothers, but EU always got shafted, sometimes 1 small update not even worth mentioning cuased a downtime on EU Primetime for 7 hours......

Ability lag made pvp 1 big frustrating joke.

from level 1 to 49 it was fun to pvp, when you dinged 50....the fun was over as 90% of the team left when they even saw a small diffrence in player skill or a enemy score advantage.

Flashpoints....it was fun to hear the story 1 or 2 times, not 50 times....a flashpoint could be done in a normal timeframe of 15/20 min but got dragged out to 45/60 minutes as some people wanted to see the damn story over and over and over again.

This made a huge impact on playtime and frustration.

Class balance...soem classes could murder you before you could even react, some classes could spam 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 and wipe out a whole group of players.

Some classes where a pain to master, but the ability lag was making sure you could not maximise gcd, making your chains a horror to pull off.

FPS could drop down to 5 in a moment notice, even setting all options to LOW with a high end system coulnt prevent those strange fps drops.

 

 

Verdict:

 

Game was not ready by a long shot.

The parts of the game that where finished where ok, but nothing special.

Game was fun for 30 levels then i already saw it comming, Warhammer/Aion deja vu.

 

Realy sad, as a Starwars IP deserved ALOT more then this pathetic try to make a mmo, and even saying we want to compete with WoW..

Give it a year from now and you have 4 servers left.

 

 

  Wickedjelly

Novice Member

Joined: 4/19/09
Posts: 5064

The Dude abides

5/09/12 1:32:09 PM#109
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Financial reports say that they are currently making money and compared to the same time last year, they are making a lot of money. I haven't seen anything specific on recouping their investment or paying the game off.

 

 If you read his statement they mainly attribute this to their digital revenue stream, and the release of ME3, FIFA 4,  and Kingdom of Amular. Not SWTOR sales or subs.

Actually, if you read his statement he downplayed SWTOR rather significantly overall.

1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.

2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.

3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.

  spizz

Novice Member

Joined: 7/11/04
Posts: 2591

5/09/12 1:37:21 PM#110

They are disillusioned If they really thought that a game will succeed because it has a STARWARS theme.

Put away the StarWars theme and what is left is actually what sells for long term.

Currently, companies oversleep a new tendency of mmorpg players. They still try to make cash with concepts like years ago and dont get it that new content ideas are in the meanwhile more necessary than just a copy paste business idea.

  severius

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/04
Posts: 1532

5/09/12 1:38:03 PM#111

Meh all the power gamers have already done the unlocks, have seen the stories and the end game from multiple perspectives so of course they have cancelled.  Its the casuals that keep these games afloat.


  GeezerGamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5677

5/09/12 1:43:21 PM#112

When will these suits realize 2 things?
1. If people want to play WoW, they play WoW.
2. WoW was a fluke. It happened. It wasn't supposed to happen, It shouldn't have happen, Probably won't happen again.

  Pyuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/05
Posts: 695

5/09/12 1:46:10 PM#113
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

When will these suits realize 2 things?
1. If people want to play WoW, they play WoW.
2. WoW was a fluke. It happened. It wasn't supposed to happen, It shouldn't have happen, Probably won't happen again.

QFT. WoW was released at exactly the right time to capitalize on EQ's 3D MMO legacy. It was basically a new and improved EQ at the time. NOt even Blizzard could repeat what happened with WoW.

I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  uofa13l

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/06
Posts: 31

5/09/12 1:46:48 PM#114

"Their profit statement shows them making money and shows SWToR making money. You present a guess and only a guess. *shrug* Make of that what you will."

 

Actually their profit statement shows EA making money not SWToR. The only way to try and even anylize this for SWToR is to look at the PC business as a whole which you would expect at this time is somewhat dominated by SWToR.

 

Total GAAP Net Revenue

Q4 2011: +51M

Q1 2012: -51M

Q2 2012: -25M

 

Also it is important to realize that most of the cost of this game to this point (developing game and advertising) occured prior to 2012 so EA being profitable in 2012 means nothing when analyzing if SWToR is profitible.
 

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2465

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

5/09/12 1:48:37 PM#115
Originally posted by Pyuk

QFT. WoW was released at exactly the right time to capitalize on EQ's 3D MMO legacy. It was basically a new and improved EQ at the time. NOt even Blizzard could repeat what happened with WoW.

I'm hoping they can with Titan. Hoping they make it different and not a clone of WoW, then it has a chance for me to play it. If it's another gear grind then, I'll pass.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  arieste

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3332

5/09/12 1:50:49 PM#116
Originally posted by Pyuk
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

When will these suits realize 2 things?
1. If people want to play WoW, they play WoW.
2. WoW was a fluke. It happened. It wasn't supposed to happen, It shouldn't have happen, Probably won't happen again.

QFT. WoW was released at exactly the right time to capitalize on EQ's 3D MMO legacy. It was basically a new and improved EQ at the time. NOt even Blizzard could repeat what happened with WoW.

Actually, if you want to be techincal, EQ2 was basically a new and improved EQ and came out exactly the same time.  And while the game has been and remains hugely successful, it still pales in comparison to WoW in terms of commercial success.  Because... "WoW was a fluke. It happened. It wasn't supposed to happen, It shouldn't have happen, Probably won't happen again."   Very well put by that poster.  +1

"I’d rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."

- Raph Koster

Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2
Currently Playing: EQ2, Firefall

  Mishakai

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/12
Posts: 106

5/09/12 1:52:06 PM#117

Odd, most of the hardcore players I know are giving TERA a spin while waiting for GW2 to see how it pans out..

If only hardcore players are playing TOR, howcome PVP queue times have doubled, if not more, since 1.2???

What a load of garbage.

Even their podcase is nothing but a bunch of self gratifying butt smacking.  All you hear is a couple BW guys telling each other how good a job they did, while completely ignoring the pletora of community concerns post 1.2 that has cost them ~400k subs.

  orsonstfu

Novice Member

Joined: 2/12/08
Posts: 206

5/09/12 1:54:20 PM#118
Originally posted by Mishakai

Odd, most of the hardcore players I know are giving TERA a spin while waiting for GW2 to see how it pans out..

If only hardcore players are playing TOR, howcome PVP queue times have doubled, if not more, since 1.2???

What a load of garbage.

Even their podcase is nothing but a bunch of self gratifying butt smacking.  All you hear is a couple BW guys telling each other how good a job they did, while completely ignoring the pletora of community concerns post 1.2 that has cost them ~400k subs.

They probably need that self love because after Dragon Age 2, the end of ME3, and SWTOR - I dont see Bioware getting much love anytime soon... of course I accidently called them Bioware... I am pretty sure we can bury that name and call them EAware now.

  Pyuk

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/21/05
Posts: 695

5/09/12 1:58:52 PM#119
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by Pyuk
Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 

When will these suits realize 2 things?
1. If people want to play WoW, they play WoW.
2. WoW was a fluke. It happened. It wasn't supposed to happen, It shouldn't have happen, Probably won't happen again.

QFT. WoW was released at exactly the right time to capitalize on EQ's 3D MMO legacy. It was basically a new and improved EQ at the time. NOt even Blizzard could repeat what happened with WoW.

Actually, if you want to be techincal, EQ2 was basically a new and improved EQ and came out exactly the same time.  And while the game has been and remains hugely successful, it still pales in comparison to WoW in terms of commercial success.  Because... "WoW was a fluke. It happened. It wasn't supposed to happen, It shouldn't have happen, Probably won't happen again."   Very well put by that poster.  +1

Thanks Captain Obvious. But we're talking WoW, here. WoW was based on EQ and tried to improve on its formula. No sh*t EQ2 was an actual sequel. Did the fact it was called EQ2 give it away? Give yourself a medal.

I make spreadsheets at work - I don't want to make them for the games I play.

  GeezerGamer

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 5677

5/09/12 2:05:41 PM#120


Originally posted by Pyuk


Originally posted by arieste


Originally posted by Pyuk



Originally posted by GeezerGamer

 
When will these suits realize 2 things?
1. If people want to play WoW, they play WoW.
2. WoW was a fluke. It happened. It wasn't supposed to happen, It shouldn't have happen, Probably won't happen again.


QFT. WoW was released at exactly the right time to capitalize on EQ's 3D MMO legacy. It was basically a new and improved EQ at the time. NOt even Blizzard could repeat what happened with WoW.


Actually, if you want to be techincal, EQ2 was basically a new and improved EQ and came out exactly the same time.  And while the game has been and remains hugely successful, it still pales in comparison to WoW in terms of commercial success.  Because... "WoW was a fluke. It happened. It wasn't supposed to happen, It shouldn't have happen, Probably won't happen again."   Very well put by that poster.  +1


Thanks Captain Obvious. But we're talking WoW, here. WoW was based on EQ and tried to improve on its formula. No sh*t EQ2 was an actual sequel. Did the fact it was called EQ2 give it away? Give yourself a medal.

I kinda agree with this. I am getting tired of being reminded that WoW is EQ2. But there is one thing about that. If EQ(2) was so damned good, why didn't it generate 12M accounts? It's not about who did it 1st. It's about who did it right. Getting it right also includes timing and conditions. Which brings us right back to this thread doesn't it?

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