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News & Features Discussion  » General: Should Elder Scrolls Online Be F2P?

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93 posts found
  monarc333

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/16/07
Posts: 605

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5/08/12 12:58:22 PM#21

Too early to truly answer this question. With the tradionationl theme park direction this game is going Zenimax should really consider the FTP model. I have a sinking feeling this game will bomb before its even released. The mmo market is changing and these developers have to change wiht it.


  Sora2810

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/23/08
Posts: 567

5/08/12 1:19:29 PM#22

After hearing all the features; I do not want to pay monthly. B2P or F2P will be great. 


Played - M59, EQOA, EQ, EQ2, PS, SWG[Favorite], DAoC, UO, RS, MXO, CoH/CoV, TR, FFXI, FoM, WoW, Eve, Rift, SWTOR, TSW.
Playing - PS2, AoW, GW2

  Gnomig

Novice Member

Joined: 12/12/05
Posts: 48

5/08/12 1:32:14 PM#23

For heavens sake no f2p for THAT game... the elder scrolls games have all lived by their flair and the (in my opinion) unreached immersion factor - having "You cannot enter this cave. Get the 'All caves in Morrowind(tm) bundle TODAY!" popping up at every corner (or ANY corner, at that) would really kill the game for me.


Nah. Monthly fee is cool for me.


  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1828

5/08/12 2:13:30 PM#24

Originally posted by Lavec




Originally posted by GrumpyMel2




Here is the deal....
















F2P model: You have 20 people who pay on average $1 per month (some will pay more, but balanced out with others who will pay nothing). However each user costs you $.50 per month to support. Your total proffit is (20 x 1) - (20 x .5) = $10 per month.



 




Sub Model: You have only 1 person that is willing to pay the subscription price but that person pays $15 per month fixed.  Lets assume that you have to provide a higher level of service for that player, so lets QUADRUPLE your costs and say you pay $2 per month to support each user. So your total proffit is (1 x 15) - ( 1 x 2) = $13 per month.




You tell me which one makes for the more PROFFITABLE business model? That's why F2P is NOT ALWAYS the obvious/better business model choice.




F2P is a very SEDUCTIVE model to those without much financial background, because the HUGE numbers of users sound like they give you alot of revenue potential....but that's just it, it's only POTENTIAL.





You sound like you just pulled those numbers out of thin air. One could just as easily pull different numbers out of thin air and reverse your argument.




Clearly F2P is about getting the balance right to make it profitable, not to mention the huge sale potential from a B2P model from the start. SUB model puts off a lot of buyers from the start and then the game dies and gets a bad rep making the only choice to go F2P with no purchase and it's a slow battle up hill. No SUB means massive sales from the start - GW2 is going to be a good case study here - and I think that is the future.





 


Of course I pulled the numbers from "thin air". It's the only thing one can possibly do when speculating in the generic or about service offerings of which one is not privy to the actual details involved in building, running and selling the service. It's functionaly no different then what Mr. Aihoshi is engaging in here though, since he has stated he has not been privy to any of the details of the TESO offering.


However as a person employed in technical management for an SaaS vendor (business services vertical not entertainment), I can tell you from experience that the principles are sound. In the "Free Services" model, each user of your services is a COST to you, not a source of revenue. They only become a revenue source when you CONVERT them to a sale (or find other ways to monetize them). They only become proffitable to you when you can sell them enough to more then offset the costs of supporting them.


The only thing having a huge user base does for you in the "Free Services" model is make you run out of money quicker, UNLESS you can find a way to sufficiently convert enough of those users to sales. Alot of businesses have found that out the hard way.


That's why I'm trying to make the point that there is no one clearly "BEST" revenue model for any given service offering when speaking in the generic sense. It's only when diving into the specifics that  you can start to see how things might make sense.


Sub-Model is a pretty solid revenue model since it gives you secure RECURRING revenue and you can control pricing so that you know you'll be exceeding your operating costs on each user under that model. Thus you pretty much know your going to be making an operating proffit, it's just whether your making enough of a proffit to recoup your initial development  costs in a timely fashion. There is a reason why Microsoft, Oracle and alot of the other software companies have been driving away from traditional boxed sales and towards LICENSING software and software services (SaaS )....that's essentialy the SUB based model and it can be EXTREMELY proffitable over the long run if you can produce a quality service and operate it efficiently. It can even be more proffitable then "Free Service" equivalents with much larger user bases.


Thing is, each revenue model has it's strong and weak points, and each one can be made to work under the right conditions. But just because alot of people have been falling all over themselves hyping the F2P model, doesn't neccesarly mean it's going to be the best or even a workable model in any given circumstance.


Note, one thing I've observed some Sub-Based models do to overcome some of the initial hesitation of purchasing is to GIVE away thier clients for FREE and then just charge the user as they are using the service. Thus there is no real financial commitment involved....you pay your $10-$15 for a month and see how you like it. The average person isn't going to be too put off by an initial outlay that is no more then what it would cost them to order lunch at McDonalds, if they think the product might have some interest for them. Frankly at that stage, unless you are a kid, most peoples TIME investment in installing and checking out the product is more of a factor then that sort of small financial outlay.


  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

5/08/12 2:16:22 PM#25

That's not most important thing.

 

Though I am personally of opinion that themepark games naturally garvitate to B2P model (not those crap freemium "optional" subs though)

and sandboxes naturally gravitate to pure P2P (no cash shop).

 

Just my opinion though.

  Ridan477

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/12
Posts: 48

"My names Commander Shepard and this is my favorite site on the internet" - Commander Shepard

5/08/12 2:25:36 PM#26

I think they should go the GW2 route with B2P and optional transactions. What i dont want is something like lotro where you have to pay for individual quests. I would much rather pay for the goodies that come with an idividual patch as a whole than try and figure out which specific quest chain i want. It might seem like i am advocating p2p but im not. What i am hoping gw2 does is offer new content as optional purchases so if i dont want to buy a new dungeon or pvp zone then i dont have too. In all honesty i dont really see anybody besides GW2 wanting to start as b2p or f2p every mmo wants to be like WoW making the millions they are off of subs.


Scoobin it up on the daily.

  eyeswideopen

Tipster

Joined: 5/24/09
Posts: 2503

5/08/12 2:44:31 PM#27

They can have whatever payment system they want. Hell, they can have a "We'll pay you to play" system and I still wouldn't touch this washed out turd with the TES title thrown on it.


-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

5/08/12 2:46:11 PM#28
Originally posted by Ridan477

 In all honesty i dont really see anybody besides GW2 wanting to start as b2p or f2p every mmo wants to be like WoW making the millions they are off of subs.

Don't misunderstand the situation.

 

GW2 start as B2P because they want to make MORE money not less.

Same as with games starting or changing to F2P / freemium or whatever model.

They are not charity ,they want to earn more.

 

Thing is some games start to be developed as P2P and their business plan and whole game is wrapped arounf this idea so not so easy to say "well let's release as F2P instead".

 

They have loans , business plans and investors.

  Theonenoni

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 269

5/08/12 2:58:01 PM#29

If they take GW2's business model I would happily pay for it.


 


A sub fee is a scam, always has been.


-I am here to perform logic

  alkarionlog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/09
Posts: 1048

5/08/12 2:59:59 PM#30
Originally posted by fenistil
Originally posted by Ridan477

 In all honesty i dont really see anybody besides GW2 wanting to start as b2p or f2p every mmo wants to be like WoW making the millions they are off of subs.

Don't misunderstand the situation.

 

GW2 start as B2P because they want to make MORE money not less.

Same as with games starting or changing to F2P / freemium or whatever model.

They are not charity ,they want to earn more.

 

Thing is some games start to be developed as P2P and their business plan and whole game is wrapped arounf this idea so not so easy to say "well let's release as F2P instead".

 

They have loans , business plans and investors.

with in the end are the ones who kill games, investors, only for the money force a "garantee" way to make  a buck, the result? a stale genre who are not evolving.

 

I know most of you guys love the "they need money" and all, but most cases is not need money is the pure and flat greed

FOR HONOR, FOR FREEDOM.... and for some money.

  eyeswideopen

Tipster

Joined: 5/24/09
Posts: 2503

5/08/12 3:02:29 PM#31
Originally posted by Theonenoni

If they take GW2's business model I would happily pay for it.


 


A sub fee is a scam, always has been.

You're right, sub fees have always been a scam. We should have stuck to having to pay by the fucking minute.

Sorry, the only ones who thought subs were a scam were those who couldn't afford a measley $15.

"Free to play" is the biggest fucking scam there ever was when it comes to payment types, but since even Johnny Basement can afford the entrance fee, it's suddenly the greatest thing ever.

It's designed for nothing but entitled children who think they have a "right" to play any game made being subsidized by those willing to pay for their hobby.

-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

5/08/12 3:14:40 PM#32
Originally posted by alkarionlog
Originally posted by fenistil
 

with in the end are the ones who kill games, investors, only for the money force a "garantee" way to make  a buck, the result? a stale genre who are not evolving.

 

I know most of you guys love the "they need money" and all, but most cases is not need money is the pure and flat greed

I am not "they need money guy".  I am a player and I care for my player interest. Not corporate interest.

I am just saying that companies choose their business model (be it F2P , B2P  or P2P or freemium or whatever) because they want MORE MONEY for their shareholders ,not because they want player to feel better or anything. 

They just choose a business model that they think their game will make most money with. Simple as that. Yes greed.

Cause it seemed like alkarionlog presumed that it was otherwise.

 

Also this was no post for defending P2P or anyother model. My next mmorpg will be GW2 which is B2P afterall (and another ArcheAge which hopefully will be P2P ).

  PyrateLV

Tipster

Joined: 11/07/08
Posts: 1120

5/08/12 3:19:36 PM#33

If its what they have alluded to, I think it should be aborted before it gets born

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  Ergload

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/12
Posts: 317

5/08/12 3:50:11 PM#34

It depends on what kind of F2P model. They definitely should not go with any kind of pay-to-win model, and I wouldn't mind shelling out for expansion/DLC as long as it was price appropriate. Don't charge me $20 for an expansion that is like 2 new races and some more endgame content. But also don't go like Sony and throw 100 expansions at us in one year. They should experiment with different ways to monetize, like how Diablo 3 is supposed to let players auction stuff for real money, and then Blizzard gets a percentage. So the Elder Scrolls mmo should ideally have you buy the game for retail value, then keep us constantly supplied with cheap but cool expansions. I wouldn't mind a sort of micro-expansion system, where you buy new races for like $2 per race, as long as they didn't turn it into a pay-to-win where the expansion races had noticeable benefits over stock.



Currently playing: Achaea

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

5/08/12 4:09:36 PM#35
No it sounds like a quality AAA game that's worth paying a sub for.
  Gurpslord

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/22/09
Posts: 372

You can't be a hero hiding underneath your bed.

5/08/12 4:28:56 PM#36

I know the whole basis of this column is the free to play concept, but not every game should go f2p.  You seem to see this future where MMOs in general stop charging subs and turn into these B2p or cashshop games.


 


I don't see the same future you do, there's a huge stigma associated with F2P and it's not going away anytime soon.  I believe that people who play these games associate F2P with failed games trying to cling to existence or asian grinders imported en masse to our doorsteps.


Wether or not TES is guna be decent is far enough out yet to make any kind of call, but discussing wether or not every new game that does come out should be free to play is getting old.


  MMOarQQ

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 659

"Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain."

5/08/12 5:16:42 PM#37

F2P, B2P, Sub... Who gives a shit, just stop trying to sell us garbage.


  lazjen

Novice Member

Joined: 11/08/08
Posts: 18

5/08/12 5:25:58 PM#38

Given my experience with Lotro (played from near start for about 4 years) and now GW/GW2, I doubt I'll ever do a sub based game ever again.  I'll do F2P/B2P + micro-transactions.  Why?  Because it seems they eventually end up that way anyway so paying extra subs just seems wrong now.


  User Deleted
5/08/12 7:26:00 PM#39

Originally posted by Sampparound

Why not have both? You can choose if you want a set rate to pay for all the features, or you can play for free with some limitations which you can unlock by paying for each feature. EQ and EQ2 already operates like this, seems to me like the best of both worlds.




I for one don't see myself playing a free to play MMORPG. I'm more than happy to play for good service.





 


Urgh SoE F2P models should not be emulated by anyone. They are horrible.


Its basically sub to win with tonnes of crap on the market that even sub players will need to buy.


  ginno123

Novice Member

Joined: 5/25/10
Posts: 1

5/08/12 8:21:41 PM#40

What do you mean future? B2P has been the model since the game industry started. You need to BUY the game in order TO PLAY it. Don't tell me all games in the past were given out for free? Future? Where was your head the whole time?


With the F2P model being a good model to attract both paying and non-paying players, i think this game will attract more into its game. The only reason i see why players want a B2P or P2P model is because they got used to the WoW mentality that if you can pay, you are superior. F2P games tend to offer better service because if you can voice out any problem, the developer/publisher can easily do something about the game. Not wait for months for an expansion just for a simple fix of a bug.


But with the title, i doubt it will be F2P. Maybe it will start of as a B2P game then become P2P then end up being F2P if the player base is not met. Just a prediction.


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