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General Discussion  » ElderScrolls RPG combat not possible in a MMO

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214 posts found
  Salenger

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/04
Posts: 509

The true character of a man can be seen when they are given power.

5/08/12 1:18:48 AM#161
Originally posted by caremuchless
 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 

Yes they could have, Only thing about darkfalls combat that makes it fun is the free aim FPS, Melee Combat in Darkfall is really crap. All they had to do is not make it Tab target...meaning not make it a heaping pile of crap with a TES label on it.  

BTW why bring up Darkfall the game is dead, finished..ruined...and lowest population it ever has been.

  Entinerint

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 725

5/08/12 2:14:11 AM#162
Originally posted by salenger
Originally posted by caremuchless
 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 

Yes they could have, Only thing about darkfalls combat that makes it fun is the free aim FPS, Melee Combat in Darkfall is really crap. All they had to do is not make it Tab target...meaning not make it a heaping pile of crap with a TES label on it.  

BTW why bring up Darkfall the game is dead, finished..ruined...and lowest population it ever has been.

It had potential though, you have to admit.

In my opinion there is ONE MECHANIC in DF melee combat that ruins it and makes it totally silly: if you get hit in the back you take 40% more damage.  I understand where this idea came from, but the result is a chicken-with-heads cut off sticky-backing figure-eight sprinting melee fight, not a deliberate, careful duel.

For that kind of thing I would go to Mortal Online, which has combat closer to Mount&Blade but only first person, you can't even go into third (to prevent people corner-looking most likely).

I wish Zenimax would have taken the best parts of both those systems and put them into ESO.

All major features of Skyrim are possible in an MMO setting, with minor tweaks at best.  Hotbars are fine, nothing wrong with hotbars, both DF and MO have them for quick access to vital items, and in DFs case, some cool-down abilites.  Nothing wrong with that, but it's the visceral, punchy combat immersion that I would want to see from ESO and we aren't getting it.  I love TES but that as well as the art-style are deal-breakers to me.

  Chattaway

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/10
Posts: 136

5/08/12 7:12:30 AM#163

MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

  Jakdstripper

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2130

5/08/12 8:05:20 AM#164
Originally posted by Gisborne

MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

completely agree.

if Star Vault can almost pull it of with absolutely no money, no talent, absolutely no experience and not a friken clue on how to make an mmo (they had to get a fan to make the original game launcher because the one they built didn't work half the time, that's just how cluless SV was when they started MO)  there should be no problem for a big company with competent programmers and money to pull it off.

 

not to mention DF has an aim based combat, FE also, now Tera, and other games as well.

 

 

it's definately possible, not easy or cheap, but definately possible. the problem is nobody want's to risk spending the money needed to make it a reality without knowing if it will sell. it is a big gamble since fps combat is quite new and not universally accepted in the mmo world as of yet.

 

 

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4211

5/08/12 8:07:36 AM#165
Originally posted by Jakdstripper
Originally posted by Gisborne

MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

completely agree.

if Star Vault can almost pull it of with absolutely no money, no talent, absolutely no experience and not a friken clue on how to make an mmo (they had to get a fan to make the original game launcher because the one they built didn't work half the time, that's just how cluless SV was when they started MO)  there should be no problem for a big company with competent programmers and money to pull it off.

 

 

it's definately possible, not easy or cheap, but definately possible. the problem is nobody want's to risk spending the money needed to make it a reality without knowing if it will sell.

 

 

totally agree..

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http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  Caldrin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 4211

5/08/12 8:10:32 AM#166
Originally posted by salenger
Originally posted by caremuchless
 Do you really think it's possible to copy that type of combat into ESO and end up with something better than what is currently in Darkfall?

 

 

Yes they could have, Only thing about darkfalls combat that makes it fun is the free aim FPS, Melee Combat in Darkfall is really crap. All they had to do is not make it Tab target...meaning not make it a heaping pile of crap with a TES label on it.  

BTW why bring up Darkfall the game is dead, finished..ruined...and lowest population it ever has been.

I think you might be delusional its far from dead, finished or ruined and there is a great active populaton on the US server..

Darkfall combat is good in many wales its fast enjoyable combat, its not suppose to be realistic.. if you want a more tactical combat system check out Mortal Online.

My 3D models
http://dragon3d.webs.com/

  GrayGhost79

Novice Member

Joined: 8/30/08
Posts: 4888

5/08/12 8:15:41 AM#167
Originally posted by Jakdstripper
Originally posted by Gisborne

MORTAL ONLINE     http://www.mortalonline.com/index.php

Is a 100% first person only MMO action combat game, its basically Elder scrolls online in a full sandbox world...

here is a duel i had with a friend, a bit dark as it was night but you will see sword and shield combat with no armour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdUpX4VJWCs

completely agree.

if Star Vault can almost pull it of with absolutely no money, no talent, absolutely no experience and not a friken clue on how to make an mmo (they had to get a fan to make the original game launcher because the one they built didn't work half the time, that's just how cluless SV was when they started MO)  there should be no problem for a big company with competent programmers and money to pull it off.

 

not to mention DF has an aim based combat, FE also, now Tera, and other games as well.

 

 

it's definately possible, not easy or cheap, but definately possible. the problem is nobody want's to risk spending the money needed to make it a reality without knowing if it will sell. it is a big gamble since fps combat is quite new and not universally accepted in the mmo world as of yet.

 

 

Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

  Jakdstripper

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2130

5/08/12 8:23:52 AM#168
Originally posted by GrayGhost79

 

 

Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

again completely agree.

ever since i've played TES and my first mmo (WoW) i've dreamd of just that: a TES mmo. a first person mmo in the world of the Elders Scrolls.

i've been dreaming of this for years now and now that it's finaly being made it's going to be nothing like TES.

there is nothing but disappointment here and i know i wont be playing this game if it feels more like Rift/SWTOR then Mortal/TES.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15691

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/08/12 8:31:24 AM#169
Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

Problem is if they designed the game solely with TES fans in mind, they'd be making the same exact mistake Bioware made with TOR. TES fans in general are SP RPG fans, not MMO fans, there is crossover sure, but when designing an MMO you have to think about what works well in an MMO first and foremost.

~On top of that~

IF you took the actual design of TES and put it in MMO format, those who come from a TES only background would not be accustomed to players having an impact on their experience. Theivery, kill anyone at anytime, etc... These people are used to themselves having that impact on the world, not players having that impact on each other. That is two totally different things. TES's actual ruleset and options would create one of the most lawless game environments in existence.

 

 

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  wartyxwt

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 181

5/08/12 8:32:56 AM#170

SO you don't like Darkfall or Mortal, this magically means the technology doesn't exist?

 

I SEE WOT U DID THAR! (it wasn't very clever)

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/08/12 8:37:57 AM#171
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

Problem is if they designed the game solely with TES fans in mind, they'd be making the same exact mistake Bioware made with TOR. TES fans in general are SP RPG fans, not MMO fans, there is crossover sure, but when designing an MMO you have to think about what works well in an MMO first and foremost.

~On top of that~

IF you took the actual design of TES and put it in MMO format, those who come from a TES only background would not be accustomed to players having an impact on their experience. Theivery, kill anyone at anytime, etc... These people are used to themselves having that impact on the world, not players having that impact on each other. That is two totally different things. TES's actual ruleset and options would create one of the most lawless game environments in existence.

 

 

I cant speak for all TES fans but speaking for myself TES being single player or not has nothing to do with my experience at all. In fact, for the past several years I have been playing Darkfall because its (in my mind) the closest representation of TES that I am aware of until Skyrim came out.

So again, single player not single player doesnt matter to me as a TES player. What DOES matter however is FPS view, emmersion, able to go anywhere for my own path and not penalized for not doing quests, and a huge world that doesnt look like a cartoon

Correlation does not imply causation

  Thorqemada

Elite Member

Joined: 8/30/04
Posts: 1219

5/08/12 8:38:37 AM#172

If you know the Massively site and the "Anvil of Crom" that had a new article recently where the US based Author talks about to play on the European Server and the increase of Ping up to 250 ms and more and Players from Australia and NZ write comments that they have Pings of 500ms and more hurting their pvp experience its pretty obvious why a worldwide mmo not can have use of real time action combat.

"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"

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  Jakdstripper

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2130

5/08/12 8:40:21 AM#173

i dont agree Distopia

 

hard core TES fans will be horrified at how different this mmo feels from the orginal game. the only thing that will resemble their beloved TES will be lore but the game it'self will feel nothing like TES. TES has an incredibly unique feel to it exactly because it's mostly a fps experience, with incredible graphics and freedom.

 

 

long time mmo fans will only see just one more WoW clone loosely based on the TES lore. there wont be anything unique about this game and the majority of features will be better done in other games they are already playing. there will be nothing new about this game and it will just more of the same old tired formula with a new skin.

 

 

this is why there are som many damn hate threads. nobody is happy here.

 

 

 

 

  Rohn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3754

5/08/12 8:43:18 AM#174
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Thats part of the issue many of us are having lol. It's a big gamble for other MMO's but not a TES MMO. TES fans would be expecting FPS style combat lol. Sadly they did end up taking a gamble by going with a more traditional MMO combat system and it's a gamble thats biting them in the arse atm. Who knows what people will think after launch, but right now it's one of the main complaints against the game.

Problem is if they designed the game solely with TES fans in mind, they'd be making the same exact mistake Bioware made with TOR. TES fans in general are SP RPG fans, not MMO fans, there is crossover sure, but when designing an MMO you have to think about what works well in an MMO first and foremost.

~On top of that~

IF you took the actual design of TES and put it in MMO format, those who come from a TES only background would not be accustomed to players having an impact on their experience. Theivery, kill anyone at anytime, etc... These people are used to themselves having that impact on the world, not players having that impact on each other. That is two totally different things. TES's actual ruleset and options would create one of the most lawless game environments in existence.

 

 

I cant speak for all TES fans but speaking for myself TES being single player or not has nothing to do with my experience at all. In fact, for the past several years I have been playing Darkfall because its (in my mind) the closest representation of TES that I am aware of until Skyrim came out.

So again, single player not single player doesnt matter to me as a TES player. What DOES matter however is FPS view, emmersion, able to go anywhere for my own path and not penalized for not doing quests, and a huge world that doesnt look like a cartoon

 

I've had a similar experience with Mortal Online.  The technology is there, and a major company should be able to pull it off, if smaller companies can.

Mortal has the FPS style combat and immersive first-person-view that was expected of TES, along with some of the sandbox concepts.  To me, it's the closest thing to an actual Elder Scrolls MMO there is.  Sounds like that will still be the case after TESO launches.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/08/12 8:46:07 AM#175
Originally posted by Thorqemada

If you know the Massively site and the "Anvil of Crom" that had a new article recently where the US based Author talks about to play on the European Server and the increase of Ping up to 250 ms and more and Players from Australia and NZ write comments that they have Pings of 500ms and more hurting their pvp experience its pretty obvious why a worldwide mmo not can have use of real time action combat.

I played on the DF EU server for 2 years at nearly 200 ping and that was nearly 1/2 the globe away from me. Anything over 200 ping you notice anything below 200 ping you dont notice but you can lose in battle. So solution?

equalize those that have low ping. In other words make everyones ping at best 190 regardless of how close you are to the server.

Now its also important to note that DF has a different focus that TES. That is a hard core combat game with many sociopathic players who adore FFA PvP and the game tries to be the most hard core there is.

Elder scrolls just needs FPS combat, not the BEST FPS MMO combat

 

Correlation does not imply causation

  Jakdstripper

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 2130

5/08/12 8:53:49 AM#176

ping is only a problem of not having enough surver spread out through the world. MO for example only has 1 Europena server. DF only has 2 server, one in europe and one in north america. of course you'r gonna have ping issues when you got people plaing from Australia, Canada, Russia, Brazil, Sout africa etc etc.

 

a large company with money should have no problem having 1 or 2 servers per continent, especially if the game has a healthy subscription base (which a true TES mmo would have). this would pretty much eradicate severe ping issues.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/08/12 8:57:53 AM#177
Originally posted by Jakdstripper

ping is only a problem of not having enough surver spread out through the world. MO for example only has 1 Europena server. DF only has 2 server, one in europe and one in north america. of course you'r gonna have ping issues when you got people plaing from Australia, Canada, Russia, Brazil, Sout africa etc etc.

 

a large company with money should have no problem having 1 or 2 servers per continent, especially if the game has a healthy subscription base (which a true TES mmo would have). this would pretty much eradicate severe ping issues.

exactly. DF has 10,000 player limit per server with ping concerns HOWEVER, your TES audience really isnt hyper competitive like DF players are demanding the lowest ping possible. TES personality types are explorers, they want FPS view and combat for the emmerison factor but its not a hyper competitive need.

Correlation does not imply causation

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15691

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

5/08/12 9:00:28 AM#178
Originally posted by Jakdstripper

i dont agree Distopia

 

hard core TES fans will be horrified at how different this mmo feels from the orginal game. the only thing that will resemble their beloved TES will be lore but the game it'self will feel nothing like TES. TES has an incredibly unique feel to it exactly because it's mostly a fps experience, with incredible graphics and freedom.

 

 

long time mmo fans will only see just one more WoW clone loosely based on the TES lore. there wont be anything unique about this game and the majority of features will be better done in other games they are already playing. there will be nothing new about this game and it will just more of the same old tired formula with a new skin.

 

 

this is why there are som many damn hate threads. nobody is happy here.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

I cant speak for all TES fans but speaking for myself TES being single player or not has nothing to do with my experience at all. In fact, for the past several years I have been playing Darkfall because its (in my mind) the closest representation of TES that I am aware of until Skyrim came out.

So again, single player not single player doesnt matter to me as a TES player. What DOES matter however is FPS view, emmersion, able to go anywhere for my own path and not penalized for not doing quests, and a huge world that doesnt look like a cartoon

The main problem I have with both of these responses, which I agree with both of you it would make for a better TES MMO, to be like a TES game.

Is that we're MMO fans as well as TES fans. We're used to players having an impact on our experience. I was speaking toward single-player only players. Which I can't imagine there would be a huge crossover of, into this TES MMO in the first place especially when it's not actually made by Bethesda or doesn't sound like TES.

~that may be different if the game was heralding TES features~

For those who did crossover into the game we'd prefer, it wouldn't be that same experience for them anyway. As it would be a free for all, where they're not in control of their world, instead other players are in control of their experience. As I said that's something completely different than what a TES SP experience is.

That part of my response is toward those saying TES fans would want that game, I'm saying only the ones who also play MMO's would and like their MMO to be lawless.

Now the first part is simply saying that I don't think it's smart to have single-player fans in mind when creating an MMO. To me that's like designing an RTS for FPS fans, it just doesn't make sense.

What works well in an MMO with little problems is controlled environments, and sectioned off PVP if you're aiming for the masses more than anything else. And I am sure they are.

@ jack, The problem with your WOW clone comment is, this game doesn't resmeble WOW in features as much as it does GW2, DAOC and EQ (open dungeons etc).

 

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Rohn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3754

5/08/12 9:03:07 AM#179
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Jakdstripper

ping is only a problem of not having enough surver spread out through the world. MO for example only has 1 Europena server. DF only has 2 server, one in europe and one in north america. of course you'r gonna have ping issues when you got people plaing from Australia, Canada, Russia, Brazil, Sout africa etc etc.

 

a large company with money should have no problem having 1 or 2 servers per continent, especially if the game has a healthy subscription base (which a true TES mmo would have). this would pretty much eradicate severe ping issues.

exactly. DF has 10,000 player limit per server with ping concerns HOWEVER, your TES audience really isnt hyper competitive like DF players are demanding the lowest ping possible. TES personality types are explorers, they want FPS view and combat for the emmerison factor but its not a hyper competitive need.

 

That's ultimately the point here.  Why did TES fans so often ask for an Elder Scrolls MMO?

Is it just the lore?  Did they just want the lore in a standard MMO format?

Or, were they hoping for such an MMO so they could have a familiar Elder Scrolls play experience in MMO form?

To me, the latter was the expectation, which explains all the anger regarding the leaked information.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 5327

5/08/12 9:04:03 AM#180
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Jakdstripper

i dont agree Distopia

 

hard core TES fans will be horrified at how different this mmo feels from the orginal game. the only thing that will resemble their beloved TES will be lore but the game it'self will feel nothing like TES. TES has an incredibly unique feel to it exactly because it's mostly a fps experience, with incredible graphics and freedom.

 

 

long time mmo fans will only see just one more WoW clone loosely based on the TES lore. there wont be anything unique about this game and the majority of features will be better done in other games they are already playing. there will be nothing new about this game and it will just more of the same old tired formula with a new skin.

 

 

this is why there are som many damn hate threads. nobody is happy here.

 

 

 

 

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

 

I cant speak for all TES fans but speaking for myself TES being single player or not has nothing to do with my experience at all. In fact, for the past several years I have been playing Darkfall because its (in my mind) the closest representation of TES that I am aware of until Skyrim came out.

So again, single player not single player doesnt matter to me as a TES player. What DOES matter however is FPS view, emmersion, able to go anywhere for my own path and not penalized for not doing quests, and a huge world that doesnt look like a cartoon

The main problem I have with both of these responses, which I agree with both of you it would make for a better TES MMO, to be like a TES game.

Is that we're MMO fans as well as TES fans. We're used to players having an impact on our experience. I was speaking toward single-player only players. Which I can't imagine there would be a huge crossover of, into this TES MMO in the first place especially when it's not actually made by Bethesda or doesn't sound like TES.

~that may be different if the game was heralding TES features~

For those who did crossover into the game we'd prefer, it wouldn't be that same experience for them anyway. As it would be a free for all, where they're not in control of their world, instead other players are in control of their experience. As I said that's something completely different than what a TES SP experience is.

That part of my response is toward those saying TES fans would want that game, I'm saying only the ones who also play MMO's would and like their MMO to be lawless.

Now the first part is simply saying that I don't think it's smart to have single-player fans in mind when creating an MMO. To me that's like designing an RTS for FPS fans, it just doesn't make sense.

What works well in an MMO with little problems is controlled environments, and sectioned off PVP if you're aiming for the masses more than anything else. And I am sure they are.

 

 

like I said I cant speak for all players but I can say this about me personally. I have been playing games for 20+ years and NEVER does the question of 'is it an MMO or single player game' factor into my choice of if I play it or not. For me its 100% the game itself and having others play with me in a game is a feature I weigh against other features. I will not seek out a game I dont like simply because I can play with others.

Correlation does not imply causation

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