Originally posted by Banaghran

You once again read only the first part of my post, let me counter with a blanket statement :)

Anyways, the way you descibe raiding, which is the favored facet of current games, travel and exploration can be described too, but the game system has to support it, like i mentioned, not sideline it on purpose so some blokes can get angry that they have to spend a minute extra before getting epic lootz :)

I mean where does this sense of unfairness come from, that we see "overaggroing" as a part of the gameplay, skill and deep, but forgetting you key and having to travel 5 minutes to town-bank as filler and waste of time?

Well I ignored the "expectations" bit because expectations have zero bearing on whether Feature A is deeper or shallower than Feature B.

I'm not making blanket statements, except in discussing typical MMORPGs (where travel is quite obviously shallower (by a lot) than dungeon/raid gameplay.) 

If we start talking about non-typical MMORPGs like Puzzle PIrates where the very act of travel involves deep gameplay systems, then we can agree that travel is not automatically shallow by definition.  But typical MMORPGs are what's being discussed, and in all the existing major MMORPGs the travel system(s) are shallower than the combat system(s).

There's no sense of "unfairness" being discussed here.  It's very simple: gamers want gameplay and depth.  Travel fails to provide much gameplay or depth.  Combat provides considerably more, due to so many different systems being involved.  Could it be even deeper?  Absolutely!  But A+B+C+D (combat) is clearly going to be deeper than A alone (travel).

Originally posted by Saryhl

Originally posted by CalmOceans

The argument that someone doesn't belong in an MMO because they don't group is really bad I feel. Those people still often enjoy the company of others in zone chat or guild chat or like the feeling of being in a world with other people.

Sometimes I'm working on a project on the job or doing something on my own, that doesn't mean I need to be cast away to a deserted island because I'm not in everyone else's face, it also doesn't mean I don't like people around me. It just means I'm doing something on my own.

Someone who doesn't Group doesn't belong in an MMO. You, sometimes working on a project or doing something on your own doesn't mean you don't group. It means sometimes you like some "me" time. That is acceptable. But people who don't like to group and don't group don't belong in an MMO because that is the basis of the genre to begin with. However that isn't what the genre has become in recent years, but what it is truly meant to be. In a post on another thread i stated that MMO's by a standard should be 90% Group content, even having to kill most of the mobs, and 10% Solo Content. Have that content there for your "me" time but the name of the game is meant to be Play with everyone don't just observe them in passing 24/7. I would even venture to say a more acceptable ratio would be 75% grouping and 25% Solo. Its not Massive Solo World it is Massive Multiplayer world after all. :)

And this is another reason people dont like forced grouping cause sometimes you never know who your being grouped with like in games with Group finders and such. These ruin the fun when I group with someone in a pug and they they start telling me a person who didnt get to max level as fast as I could but played the game to get there and I know my role but get told where to stand how to pull a group and so on. Sorry but if someones gonna tell me how to play Ithey need to be my role  and not be playing theres. Also mmo's are not just games about grouping there ways to play with others not everyone is going to jump into every group there invited to with out knowing who there grouping with. I dont group with random people for instances anymore only with people I know and have played with mostly cause I know how they play and how to work with them being forced to group with people I dont know alot gets alittle anoying. 

The reason I dont raid anymore is because of elite players thinking there better then everyone else and I can spot most of them when a group starts cause there the first to say how to do things and to me again dont tell me my role I got here playing it not by rushing it like almost everyone I know in most games I play. Also forced grouping 9-10 times means endgame not beginning or middle but end game and comes with all games that follow the trinty setup and means that all you can do is get to end game to enjoy it or thats what I get told in every mmo I have played to date almost that I need to quit wasting my time doing the low lvl instances and worry about getting to end game like in WoW and EQ2 and AoC hell any game I get rushed along to end game when it used to be about getting there and in most mmo's in todays market you can solo it faster then with a group even in EQ1 you can solo content now faster then a group.\

So this leaves games like Darkfall with its from what I hear great game play and Eve onlines suppior open world play and best sand box ever gank fest ffa pvp that follows those games yeah been there done that even before they came out in UO that I dont care for when I play a game I am there for fun and in some mmo's I like pvp in most I hate it cause theres no lvl ground cause theres always that one ganker or in some cases the ones in groups that roum around ganking every new player in that world even AoC is bad for this and those who say Darkfall isn't yeah it is even Mortal online is bad but its getting past that and to me not many will because who you gonna grp with when the other players are killing you every chance they get.

See your point of forced grouping does not always work in most cases forced group can cause alot of problems but if you have content in your game that works ethier way to where theres solo play with group play you'll get alot more players then one that enforces grouping. And raiding is not end game end game is when a game ends its over  no more story or you cant go anywhere else and to my knowledge mmo's have no end game cause that ruins the game so they make up something and call it end game which 90% of the time is gear grind and well thats almost every mmo out there sense GW1 isnt and mmo nethier is Diablo those are co-op rpg games but have better group system then mmo's do most of the time cause I can group with any one and have fun. Yes in GW1 we never had a healer most of the time cause we could heal ourselfs in it. To me grouping should be optional not an always have to.

Originally posted by 4bsolute

Because most people dont want to rely on other people from a progressing perspective.

When I look back into my soloing PvP history in any MMO, going battlegrounds with random people - no offense but its fact that you could throw at least 90% in the garbage.

And imagine people with this mentality in your group and then the content would be ONLY progressable if anybody does his part? You can not really combine anyonymity (people out of a guild for example) and team-based gameplay.

Too many egos out there. Way too many.

Nononono, precious freetime :) no thanks.

PS: Forcing somebody leads only to the counterpart - people let go of something over a longer time period.

Its in this case that I agree that there are much better solo games out there, many with an online co-op option for those people who only want to play with others on a whim.

MMOs are made for many people to play together, thats why they're called "mulitplayer". I wont deny that there should always be things to do when you dont have a group in an MMO, but level progression doesn't necessarily have to be one of them. Even if it is, it should, at the very least, take far more time and be far more difficult/dangerous to progress alone than with a team. Currently, in most games, the margin of difference between solo and group play is far too narrow, in my opinion.

Originally posted by nolic1

Originally posted by Saryhl

Originally posted by CalmOceans

The argument that someone doesn't belong in an MMO because they don't group is really bad I feel. Those people still often enjoy the company of others in zone chat or guild chat or like the feeling of being in a world with other people.

Sometimes I'm working on a project on the job or doing something on my own, that doesn't mean I need to be cast away to a deserted island because I'm not in everyone else's face, it also doesn't mean I don't like people around me. It just means I'm doing something on my own.

Someone who doesn't Group doesn't belong in an MMO. You, sometimes working on a project or doing something on your own doesn't mean you don't group. It means sometimes you like some "me" time. That is acceptable. But people who don't like to group and don't group don't belong in an MMO because that is the basis of the genre to begin with. However that isn't what the genre has become in recent years, but what it is truly meant to be. In a post on another thread i stated that MMO's by a standard should be 90% Group content, even having to kill most of the mobs, and 10% Solo Content. Have that content there for your "me" time but the name of the game is meant to be Play with everyone don't just observe them in passing 24/7. I would even venture to say a more acceptable ratio would be 75% grouping and 25% Solo. Its not Massive Solo World it is Massive Multiplayer world after all. :)

And this is another reason people dont like forced grouping cause sometimes you never know who your being grouped with like in games with Group finders and such. These ruin the fun when I group with someone in a pug and they they start telling me a person who didnt get to max level as fast as I could but played the game to get there and I know my role but get told where to stand how to pull a group and so on. Sorry but if someones gonna tell me how to play Ithey need to be my role  and not be playing theres. Also mmo's are not just games about grouping there ways to play with others not everyone is going to jump into every group there invited to with out knowing who there grouping with. I dont group with random people for instances anymore only with people I know and have played with mostly cause I know how they play and how to work with them being forced to group with people I dont know alot gets alittle anoying. 

The reason I dont raid anymore is because of elite players thinking there better then everyone else and I can spot most of them when a group starts cause there the first to say how to do things and to me again dont tell me my role I got here playing it not by rushing it like almost everyone I know in most games I play. Also forced grouping 9-10 times means endgame not beginning or middle but end game and comes with all games that follow the trinty setup and means that all you can do is get to end game to enjoy it or thats what I get told in every mmo I have played to date almost that I need to quit wasting my time doing the low lvl instances and worry about getting to end game like in WoW and EQ2 and AoC hell any game I get rushed along to end game when it used to be about getting there and in most mmo's in todays market you can solo it faster then with a group even in EQ1 you can solo content now faster then a group.\

So this leaves games like Darkfall with its from what I hear great game play and Eve onlines suppior open world play and best sand box ever gank fest ffa pvp that follows those games yeah been there done that even before they came out in UO that I dont care for when I play a game I am there for fun and in some mmo's I like pvp in most I hate it cause theres no lvl ground cause theres always that one ganker or in some cases the ones in groups that roum around ganking every new player in that world even AoC is bad for this and those who say Darkfall isn't yeah it is even Mortal online is bad but its getting past that and to me not many will because who you gonna grp with when the other players are killing you every chance they get.

See your point of forced grouping does not always work in most cases forced group can cause alot of problems but if you have content in your game that works ethier way to where theres solo play with group play you'll get alot more players then one that enforces grouping. And raiding is not end game end game is when a game ends its over  no more story or you cant go anywhere else and to my knowledge mmo's have no end game cause that ruins the game so they make up something and call it end game which 90% of the time is gear grind and well thats almost every mmo out there sense GW1 isnt and mmo nethier is Diablo those are co-op rpg games but have better group system then mmo's do most of the time cause I can group with any one and have fun. Yes in GW1 we never had a healer most of the time cause we could heal ourselfs in it. To me grouping should be optional not an always have to.

The last game to really force grouping that way was Everquest, and Honestly We didnt really have that problem of people telling you that you dont play right or didnt do it fast enough. Because everyone needed each other they were more polite and accepting and if Someone was a douche like you are describing they were blacklisted pretty harshly and alot of times had to reroll on another server just so people would play with them. It was a better time, and it needs to go back to that.

Get rid of groups all together. I like realm of the mad gods style. 

First, combat scaling on the fly. Second, rewards for all players nearby that help. 

Originally posted by Axehilt

Well I ignored the "expectations" bit because expectations have zero bearing on whether Feature A is deeper or shallower than Feature B.

I'm not making blanket statements, except in discussing typical MMORPGs (where travel is quite obviously shallower (by a lot) than dungeon/raid gameplay.) 

If we start talking about non-typical MMORPGs like Puzzle PIrates where the very act of travel involves deep gameplay systems, then we can agree that travel is not automatically shallow by definition.  But typical MMORPGs are what's being discussed, and in all the existing major MMORPGs the travel system(s) are shallower than the combat system(s).

There's no sense of "unfairness" being discussed here.  It's very simple: gamers want gameplay and depth.  Travel fails to provide much gameplay or depth.  Combat provides considerably more, due to so many different systems being involved.  Could it be even deeper?  Absolutely!  But A+B+C+D (combat) is clearly going to be deeper than A alone (travel).

The problem i see here, is that there are actually no "typical mmos" that fit your frame of reference, atleast in the sense in which the majority of the playerbase experiences them.

You speak of A+B+C+D , yet due to other influences, the combat actually is just A or A+B for the players, no matter how much you will poetically talk about group members working in concert...

Thats the simlarity i see here with travelling or any other non-combat, social or "filler" activity.

Yet one you see as good and the other as bad, why? 

Flame on!

:)

Originally posted by Saryhl

The last game to really force grouping that way was Everquest, and Honestly We didnt really have that problem of people telling you that you dont play right or didnt do it fast enough. Because everyone needed each other they were more polite and accepting and if Someone was a douche like you are describing they were blacklisted pretty harshly and alot of times had to reroll on another server just so people would play with them. It was a better time, and it needs to go back to that.

EQ had guilds that killed each other's raid mobs just so the other guild wouldn't be able to progress. In PoP guilds killed flag mobs just so the other guild wouldn't get the flag even if their whole guild was flagged, in GoD people killed m'sha just so no one could get them even if they didn't need the loot. At the high-end EQ was full of elites and people who couldn't care less about their fellow player. I think you forgot how EQ was like, there were plenty of people who helped others, but for every kind soul there was another player who would backstab you for loot or items if they got the chance.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Saryhl

The last game to really force grouping that way was Everquest, and Honestly We didnt really have that problem of people telling you that you dont play right or didnt do it fast enough. Because everyone needed each other they were more polite and accepting and if Someone was a douche like you are describing they were blacklisted pretty harshly and alot of times had to reroll on another server just so people would play with them. It was a better time, and it needs to go back to that.

EQ had guilds that killed each other's raid mobs just so the other guild wouldn't be able to progress. In PoP guilds killed flag mobs just so the other guild wouldn't get the flag even if their whole guild was flagged, in GoD people killed m'sha just so no one could get them even if they didn't need the loot. At the high-end EQ was full of elites and people who couldn't care less about their fellow player. I think you forgot how EQ was like, there were plenty of people who helped others, but for every kind soul there was another player who would backstab you for loot or items if they got the chance.

Honestly I think you forgot what EQ was like, Very Few Guilds did that at the high end, mostly rival guilds, and Players below max level were always helpful and fun and as I said if a player was a ninja or bad person in general they were black listed and no one played with them. Atleast that is how my Server went. I was on Tarew Marr. People became as you described In WoW and beyond. EQ was a much more civilized time. Even a 1:1 is better than nowadays with a 1 good to 4 selfish bastards or more.

Forced grouping? Why, is the Skinner Box currently too large or something? 

I think only two games are the answer so far...

The Secret World and Guild Wars 2, least from my experience that is.

Beinf forced is not always good how ever seamlessly grouping seems about the best route. I believe TSW does this as well, I can't remember much as I haven't followed up on it in awhile but along with GW 2 they reward just about preference least PVE wise they do. 

I do know for example in GW 2, you shouldn't get pissed off if more people come out of no where as the difficulty and quantity of things to do increases to fit the number. Usually people say seemless grouping and scaling takes away from social aspects, I know when I beta and try out MMOs, when I group I don't really talk to the people, and sometimes I be wanting to do my own thing after grouping just for a quest.

I also dislike it when in order to not get your kills or etc stolen you are better in a group even if the goal is the same for everyone. So I'd have to either wait or spam LFG and what not.

But hey it is what it is.

Originally posted by Axehilt

Originally posted by Banaghran

You once again read only the first part of my post, let me counter with a blanket statement :)

Anyways, the way you descibe raiding, which is the favored facet of current games, travel and exploration can be described too, but the game system has to support it, like i mentioned, not sideline it on purpose so some blokes can get angry that they have to spend a minute extra before getting epic lootz :)

I mean where does this sense of unfairness come from, that we see "overaggroing" as a part of the gameplay, skill and deep, but forgetting you key and having to travel 5 minutes to town-bank as filler and waste of time?

Well I ignored the "expectations" bit because expectations have zero bearing on whether Feature A is deeper or shallower than Feature B.

I'm not making blanket statements, except in discussing typical MMORPGs (where travel is quite obviously shallower (by a lot) than dungeon/raid gameplay.) 

If we start talking about non-typical MMORPGs like Puzzle PIrates where the very act of travel involves deep gameplay systems, then we can agree that travel is not automatically shallow by definition.  But typical MMORPGs are what's being discussed, and in all the existing major MMORPGs the travel system(s) are shallower than the combat system(s).

There's no sense of "unfairness" being discussed here.  It's very simple: gamers want gameplay and depth.  Travel fails to provide much gameplay or depth.  Combat provides considerably more, due to so many different systems being involved.  Could it be even deeper?  Absolutely!  But A+B+C+D (combat) is clearly going to be deeper than A alone (travel).

That's very fair.  Some people see mmorpgs as virtual worlds and travel is part of that experience.  Although I can't often see why the addition of fast travel breaks that for them.  If a fantasy game has magic and therefore teleportation, it would seem normal for peole to move about the world with teleportation rather than walking or riding a horse.

Extra exp and loot while grouping, maybe even some sort of fellowship buff. You feel powerful with your companions by your side +3% to all stats/damage or something. I think this would encourage grouping without forcing it. 

Yes Everquest one was like that in the beginnig then when people learned about class mechanics it changed fast to you have to play this way on that class thats why me and my wife played duo most of the time as Cleric/Bard was to get way from the a group has to be this and you cant do that your a bard you stay back and quit polling aggro healer cause of this I remember quite well what happend infact WoW brought it around to being this way even more so though to the point if you where not speced right you didnt stay in groups long. And sense then most mmo's became you had to be a certain way or you never had a group. In Wow we were a pally priest duo and did every instance that way we hardly grouped except for raids and in EQ1 we were bard cleric and did almost all the content that way and were told not to by or guild that we got kicked out for not grouping everywhere when they said we had to.

See to me a group can be 2 or more players not a set 5 or 6 when that type of groupiing is forced thats not fun thats a choir and almost job like needing to feel certain groups and roles. MMO's were made to mimic a fantasy world but in most fantasy storys there is very often more then 2 or 3 main characters doing what takes us in an mmo 30 to 40 I can understand a taking on a dragon needing like 5 or 6 people but needing 24+ is kinda stupied cause we are there to make a name for our selves and adventure and now adays its ok we need X,Y,Z and a D to do this dungeon even though most books it was a thief and his friend a commener who went after this treasure and did it together not 30 people .

Also if a game is gonna have gear grind take away lvls if a game is going to have lvls take away the stat gear because gear should not mean much more then protection and or deffence and weapons shouldn't do 4k dmg at max lvl. And saying if they dont have it wheres the thing keeping you there what kept us playing EQ1 for years before they added raids. What kept us playing UO or DAoC for that matter cause gear had no major advantage then just playing the game was it making our own journy. This is whats lost in games today now adays its all about gear and the stats on them nothing else nothing more its always about the gear even Darkfall is about gear cause I never seen anyone not in super gear in that and no i dont remember the armor or weapons every had to have to compete but I know basic stuff like steel plate was a waste. Even Mortal has gear grind all mmo's do because its the only thing people think about.

In the days of Pen and paper I remeber not having uber gear till I was lvl 30 or so and it was not like these games where they have +8 plate with +158 to str +158 stam+158 wis and so on that whats killed mmo's was this and thats what they need to break away from and make the game more about going out and finding your adventure. IS there ever going to be a game like this most likely not cause every player like gear for some reason and think with out it you are nothing. But it can be done and GW2 and TSW are trying to break that trend I hope. Tera isnt its all about the gear even tho your stuck with one weapon the whole game as any class they should of called there classes based on there weapons instead of classes cause thats what they are weapons I am a priest I can use this and I am a warrior that can only use this thats kinda lame if you ask me. At least GW2 is trying to change that some to more TR style gaming where you at least have a choice on weapons.

Sorry not trying to rant but just getting tired of every game being the same thing get to max gear and thats it no adventure no exploration nothing just get the best gear. Skill and playing are gone in todays mmos now its all about gear and if you dont have the best you cant do anything.

Originally posted by Jimmydean
The days of MMORPGs are gone. All thats left are co-op games that charge a sub half the time. Honestly you are better off buying a console at this point.

Tell me about it I have alot more fun with some console games but I wouldn't mind a mmo where the gear grind was gone exploring meant something and adventure was fun then following the premade breadcrumb trail everyone else is gonna follow in the end.

I don't understand why there can't be some games that require you to play as a team most , if not all the time.  If the soloers don't like that idea then don't play those games.  Simple huh?

It would be no different then any other activity or sport.  Some of them you play alone and others require you be part of a team.

How about instead of 'forcing' people to group up, you offer more incentives to group up?

You said "mmorpgs today if you solo, you get more exp per mobs, no fighting over loot, a faster way to level, if you group up, there is a exp shared pentaty, fighting over loot, etc etc.", so if we were to make grouping more exp and individual loot drop like in Diablo 3, and the game needs to focus the game design around this ideal.

Questlines definitely needs to go, because current mmorpg relies on players to follow on linear questlines to guide players from levels to levels, zones to zones, if grouping gets more exp from kills, it disrupts the flow and makes the game too easy.

Also class system needs to balance so that every class will want to play with every class. Current MMO makes the trinity so un-intuitive and dead boring to play. A group is completely reliant on the healer to survive, completely reliant on tank to absorb damage, this isn't teamwork, it's borderline addiction, like druggies going back to dealer uncontrolably. You need to design classes so that rogues can play with rogues without hesitation, a healer would be nice, but it shouldn't be compulsory. By expanding the potential group member pool, people can find groups easier and play together, without having to look for a specific member.

A huge amount of design changes will need to be make at a foundation level in order for grouping to be mainstreamed, GW2 is one that is attempting to do this, whether they will succeed or fail is wait to be seen. But succeed or fail, someone needs to take that first step to make grouping the innate thing to do for players, you are suppose to be playing with others, not competing against each other to the same quest mobs.

Originally posted by xKingdomx

How about instead of 'forcing' people to group up, you offer more incentives to group up?

You said "mmorpgs today if you solo, you get more exp per mobs, no fighting over loot, a faster way to level, if you group up, there is a exp shared pentaty, fighting over loot, etc etc.", so if we were to make grouping more exp and individual loot drop like in Diablo 3, and the game needs to focus the game design around this ideal.

Questlines definitely needs to go, because current mmorpg relies on players to follow on linear questlines to guide players from levels to levels, zones to zones, if grouping gets more exp from kills, it disrupts the flow and makes the game too easy.

Also class system needs to balance so that every class will want to play with every class. Current MMO makes the trinity so un-intuitive and dead boring to play. A group is completely reliant on the healer to survive, completely reliant on tank to absorb damage, this isn't teamwork, it's borderline addiction, like druggies going back to dealer uncontrolably. You need to design classes so that rogues can play with rogues without hesitation, a healer would be nice, but it shouldn't be compulsory. By expanding the potential group member pool, people can find groups easier and play together, without having to look for a specific member.

 

A huge amount of design changes will need to be make at a foundation level in order for grouping to be mainstreamed, GW2 is one that is attempting to do this, whether they will succeed or fail is wait to be seen. But succeed or fail, someone needs to take that first step to make grouping the innate thing to do for players, you are suppose to be playing with others, not competing against each other to the same quest mobs.

See this I can agree with a game that does this would help but you will still have thoughs that think every thing has to be a certain way mostly if you add things like skill trees and the such and yes even GW2 will most likely have this at some point where players will be your a warrior you should be using this kill set and so on. And this is going to happen no matter what we say or do cause the player base will have it happen. No matter what there will never be a perfect game but maybe a game that is some what perfect and will GW2 be it most likely not but it will be a really good start.

Originally posted by Banaghran

The problem i see here, is that there are actually no "typical mmos" that fit your frame of reference, atleast in the sense in which the majority of the playerbase experiences them.

You speak of A+B+C+D , yet due to other influences, the combat actually is just A or A+B for the players, no matter how much you will poetically talk about group members working in concert...

Thats the simlarity i see here with travelling or any other non-combat, social or "filler" activity.

Yet one you see as good and the other as bad, why? 

This has nothing to do about a subjective opinion of good or bad (though personally I find depth good; it's most of why games are worth playing.)

We're talking about depth.  One activity is very shallow (travel).  The other activity is considerably deeper, and obviously includes the deepest element of the first activity (aggro radius).

The reason it's deeper is there's a sense of mastery to it.  Of decision-making.  Depth is essentially a measure of how long it takes to master something.  You could probably explain MMORPG travel to someone in 10 seconds and they'd have a pretty good sense of what to expect.  You definitely couldn't explain all the aspects of MMORPG dungeoning to someone in 10 seconds.

Originally posted by CalmOceans

Originally posted by Saryhl

The last game to really force grouping that way was Everquest, and Honestly We didnt really have that problem of people telling you that you dont play right or didnt do it fast enough. Because everyone needed each other they were more polite and accepting and if Someone was a douche like you are describing they were blacklisted pretty harshly and alot of times had to reroll on another server just so people would play with them. It was a better time, and it needs to go back to that.

EQ had guilds that killed each other's raid mobs just so the other guild wouldn't be able to progress. In PoP guilds killed flag mobs just so the other guild wouldn't get the flag even if their whole guild was flagged, in GoD people killed m'sha just so no one could get them even if they didn't need the loot. At the high-end EQ was full of elites and people who couldn't care less about their fellow player. I think you forgot how EQ was like, there were plenty of people who helped others, but for every kind soul there was another player who would backstab you for loot or items if they got the chance.

Wow the non pvp servers were really harsh. This didn't happen on Rallos Zek (it lead to guild wars & if you were in a guild war expect them to attack when you try to raid). I didn't forget how EQ was on Rallos Zek & it was nothing like you describe  (worth noting the reason why I finally quit EQ was that SOE did nothing to fix a Zone crash exploit that prevented my entire guild from raiding, even the GM's would crash & this went on for 3+ months)

But i guess that goes to show you that the more protection you give your players from interfering with other players. the more creative & toxic they become and lash out in other ways. I don't even remember gold farmers in EQ as we as a server would kill their characters.