Originally posted by ShakyMo
So skyrim out of the box isn't a sandbox, you need to have the creation kit.

Out of the box its an open world themepark, the equivelent in mmo terms would be old mmos like ac, EQ & daoc.

The problem is if one doesnt consider Skyrim a sandbox there are very few games that actually are.

I can ONLY think of two at the moment that fit the parameter of 'able to change the game world' and that would be minecraft and Xyson.

To me sandbox simply means non-lineral in a way where you can experience a vast majority of the game content in many different ways.

GTA is not a sandbox by my defitition

Originally posted by ShakyMo
So skyrim out of the box isn't a sandbox, you need to have the creation kit.

Out of the box its an open world themepark, the equivelent in mmo terms would be old mmos like ac, EQ & daoc.

Of course

What can you do in skyrim you can't do in a themepark MMO. If you want to become an alchemist and put neat stats on your items then you can do that in themeparks. Want to just wander about talking to weird NPCs. You can do that in themeparks as well. Want to see 2 different faction of mobs fighting.. again themeparks.

Oh you can pick up objects and place them where you want. Surely that makes it a sandbox. Well no, you can do that in halflife and a dozen of other titles as well.

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

 Its not a wow clone per se. Its just a term that people use for 'omgyetanotherthemeparkgame' games with publishers afraid of losing money on possible innovative/non-standard things. 

 

so its not a wow clone, its just another themepark game and to make things worse, its using the name of worlds biggest and proably most famous sandbox single player series. To me it comapares to something like... they make a Fifa Online game thats not about football but basketball, with fifa's name on it. its that weird :P

 

edit: the game is everything that its single player series arent. Thats its biggest problem, and thats what all this fuss is about. It wouldnt be that bad if they used some other IP, but people who play and like TES like it for what is it.  Last thing i want to play now is another wow/swtor with different skins.

 

Two things...

1) TES is not a Sandbox. It's open world RPG, not Sandbox. Themepark MMORPG been doing that for years, going back to EQ1.

2) like when has Sandbox MMO ever been innovating? Sandbox MMO innovate less than Themepark MMO do. So I have no idea how anybody can link the two (Sandbox & Innovation ) together.

TES is a sandbox to most, it's fine if you feel differently but thats simply your opinion. It simply may be a generation gap, it may be different gaming backgrounds, it could be what ever but the bottom line is we simply don't agree.

I mean by what some of you have posted Lego Universe was a sandbox even though it was nothing but mini games, CoH would be a sandbox even though it is clearly a themepark, I mean your definition of a sandbox would make never winters night a sandbox which it isn't because it has you following a specific campaign with little side quests and such.

A sandbox for most is where you can make the character you want, no class system. Open world, meaning you have free roam to do pretty much you want. Non Linear gameplay all around basically with an open world. PvP, Housing, The ability to create content, quests/story lines, all that has been optional  and did not keep it from being a sandbox nor did any of it turn  it into a themepark because the sandbox base was there.

Now some sandboxes are more sandbox than others, like in UO we had a lot more freedom to do as we wish than in many TES games but that doesn't make them a themepark.

Your definition and mine differ, we will simply have to agree to disagree. Mines been set in stone for a few decades so little chance of me changing my mind on it now lol.

Originally posted by Sovrath

but I think it does speak to the topic.

I'm like you. I played morrowind for over 2 years. pretty much same with oblvion. I recently loaded morrowind and I'm playing both skyrim and morrowind.

It's not about questing. I know full well that there are players who play these games simply for the quests. Heck, a friend of my girlfriend mostly just did the quests. But when we speak of the discoveriees and some of the quests or neat things  one can find while just exploring, he knows nothing about them.

Granted, in games like WoW or LOTRO one can eschew the quests and just head out on their own, picking and choosing. But one can only do this to an extent.

I know there are places in the lotro map where you are required to be on a certain quest chain in order to even access the area.

Yet in a game like Skyrim, (or pick your elderscrolls favorite) you can stumble into any area, regardless of quest line and enjoy it.

You can simply choose not to do any quests and just explore and have fun as you'd like.

Games that allow more sandbox elements grant you this freedom.

in fact, one of the starter quest in Syrim instead of giving the amulet back for 10g keep it, it provides +2 health :)

THAT is good balance.

Originally posted by GrayGhost79

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by JimyHumuHumu

 Its not a wow clone per se. Its just a term that people use for 'omgyetanotherthemeparkgame' games with publishers afraid of losing money on possible innovative/non-standard things. 

 

so its not a wow clone, its just another themepark game and to make things worse, its using the name of worlds biggest and proably most famous sandbox single player series. To me it comapares to something like... they make a Fifa Online game thats not about football but basketball, with fifa's name on it. its that weird :P

 

edit: the game is everything that its single player series arent. Thats its biggest problem, and thats what all this fuss is about. It wouldnt be that bad if they used some other IP, but people who play and like TES like it for what is it.  Last thing i want to play now is another wow/swtor with different skins.

 

Two things...

1) TES is not a Sandbox. It's open world RPG, not Sandbox. Themepark MMORPG been doing that for years, going back to EQ1.

2) like when has Sandbox MMO ever been innovating? Sandbox MMO innovate less than Themepark MMO do. So I have no idea how anybody can link the two (Sandbox & Innovation ) together.

TES is a sandbox to most, it's fine if you feel differently but thats simply your opinion. It simply may be a generation gap, it may be different gaming backgrounds, it could be what ever but the bottom line is we simply don't agree.

I mean by what some of you have posted Lego Universe was a sandbox even though it was nothing but mini games, CoH would be a sandbox even though it is clearly a themepark, I mean your definition of a sandbox would make never winters night a sandbox which it isn't because it has you following a specific campaign with little side quests and such.

A sandbox for most is where you can make the character you want, no class system. Open world, meaning you have free roam to do pretty much you want. Non Linear gameplay all around basically with an open world. PvP, Housing, The ability to create content, quests/story lines, all that has been optional  and did not keep it from being a sandbox nor did any of it turn  it into a themepark because the sandbox base was there.

Now some sandboxes are more sandbox than others, like in UO we had a lot more freedom to do as we wish than in many TES games but that doesn't make them a themepark.

 

Your definition and mine differ, we will simply have to agree to disagree. Mines been set in stone for a few decades so little chance of me changing my mind on it now lol.

I hate to shoot holes in your theory of what a sandbox is but... garys mod follows none of what you just wrote and it's widely considered a sandbox. In fact the only thing it does have is the ability to create content and play in it.. but according to you that's not what makes a game a sandbox. Then garys mod can't be a sandbox at all

Like you said you are allowed to believe what you want. I'm not going to take that away from you

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story.

I disagree with you and once again we get into the argument about "what is a sandbox".

I would say he is correct. You can play an Elderscrolls game any way you want with some difficulty depending on your goals.

There are people who just run around collecting things and picking flowers to make potions.

There are people who try to get to the main objective with minimal killing.

If I take a linear game but add the ability to change the world then does that make that linear game a sandbox? I would say no.

 

I don't care if you agree or not it's pretty much a defining feature of all sandbox games. They all allow you to alter the gameworld. Picking up flowers and making potions is not

EvE

Terraria

Minecraft

DF

Mortal

Garys Mod

Skyrim + creation kit

Archeage

Ryzom

Is just a short list of sandbox games with one defining feature in common. If you want to talk about what it takes to be labeled a sandbox then we have to look at what they share. Skill progression for instance is not a feature they all have in common.

And explain how one alters the world in EVE and ryzom and mortal. I dont' recall one being able to build much and change the landscape in those games. Ryzom does have the scenario toolset but I don't consider that "sandbox elements" just like I don't consider any ES toolset an actual game play element.

Once in game, unless the mod gives you actual abiltities to change the world, it doesn't "change the world".

edit: unless you are equating territory control as "changing the world'.

And if I can add building structures to a linear game does that make it a sandbox?

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story.

I disagree with you and once again we get into the argument about "what is a sandbox".

I would say he is correct. You can play an Elderscrolls game any way you want with some difficulty depending on your goals.

There are people who just run around collecting things and picking flowers to make potions.

There are people who try to get to the main objective with minimal killing.

If I take a linear game but add the ability to change the world then does that make that linear game a sandbox? I would say no.

 

I don't care if you agree or not it's pretty much a defining feature of all sandbox games. They all allow you to alter the gameworld. Picking up flowers and making potions is not

EvE

Terraria

Minecraft

DF

Mortal

Garys Mod

Skyrim + creation kit

Archeage

Ryzom

Is just a short list of sandbox games with one defining feature in common. If you want to talk about what it takes to be labeled a sandbox then we have to look at what they share. Skill progression for instance is not a feature they all have in common.

And explain how one alters the world in EVE and ryzom and mortal. I dont' recall one being able to build much and change the landscape in those games. Ryzom does have the scenario toolset but I don't consider that "sandbox elements" just like I don't consider any ES toolset an actual game play element.

Once in game, unless the mod gives you actual abiltities to change the world, it doesn't "change the world".

You can build keeps in mortal that can serve as a strategic structure for one. As i've mentioned before garys mod is a sandbox which is a fact and not an opinion. Yet by your 'opinion' based on how you describe sandbox games. Garys mod wouldn't fit in

To be honest I'm only going by what I read when it comes to Mortal so if it somehow doesn't fit on that list then X it out

Having housing in a game doesn't make it a sandbox, unless those structures are part of the gameworld and not a seperate area of the game one have to access but even then, depending on how elaborate housing is, a themepark can have a segregated sandbox metagame in that as well. Like vanguard housing or the ability to create your own dungeon in EQ2 depending on the amount of freedom you actually have in creating those things.

Also remember there is such a thing as bad/good sandbox games. A bad sandbox game doesn't negate it as a sandbox

Manipulating the landscape of a game is only part of what makes a Sandbox and its only a small part.

The biggest part is CHOICE and FREEDOM.

Do, Go and Be what you want, when you want,where you want without restrictions at every turn.

Its more about what your Character can do IN the world, than what your Character can do TO the world

Originally posted by MMOExposed
But can anybody explain to me how it's a WoW Clone?

Been seeing this term thrown around a lot on the topic of TESO.

Please explain how it's a WoW clone to me...

I actually started playing mmorpgs a long time before WoW - Muds even, so I am going to rebell and say that ESO is an Everquest Dark Age of Camelot clone - and I thank the gods this might be fairly true.

And if it is a WoW clone?  I'm not going to cast stones at the most successful mmorpg model to date.   And this is coming from a Dark Age of Camelot fan boy.

Nothing like cloning quality, yet using a more mature pvp model with graphics made for a more mature audience.

I am very, very, elated to see Bethesda leading the way in the 3 realm pvp model.  About time the developers teach players that yes, they can indeed get more than a 2 faction mmo.

/salute

regardless TESO is not a wow clone as the op states.

it has decidedly anti wow features such as,

no quest hubs

open dungeons

open world teritorial pvp

Originally posted by PyrateLV

Manipulating the landscape of a game is only part of what makes a Sandbox and its only a small part.

The biggest part is CHOICE and FREEDOM.

Do, Go and Be what you want, when you want,where you want without restrictions at every turn.

Its more about what your Character can do IN the world, than what your Character can do TO the world

The sims are also considered sandbox games, and it's still limited what your sims can actually do in that gameworld even with the given options. I'll give you one guess why it's called a sandbox

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story.

I disagree with you and once again we get into the argument about "what is a sandbox".

I would say he is correct. You can play an Elderscrolls game any way you want with some difficulty depending on your goals.

There are people who just run around collecting things and picking flowers to make potions.

There are people who try to get to the main objective with minimal killing.

If I take a linear game but add the ability to change the world then does that make that linear game a sandbox? I would say no.

 

I don't care if you agree or not it's pretty much a defining feature of all sandbox games. They all allow you to alter the gameworld. Picking up flowers and making potions is not

EvE

Terraria

Minecraft

DF

Mortal

Garys Mod

Skyrim + creation kit

Archeage

Ryzom

Is just a short list of sandbox games with one defining feature in common. If you want to talk about what it takes to be labeled a sandbox then we have to look at what they share. Skill progression for instance is not a feature they all have in common.

And explain how one alters the world in EVE and ryzom and mortal. I dont' recall one being able to build much and change the landscape in those games. Ryzom does have the scenario toolset but I don't consider that "sandbox elements" just like I don't consider any ES toolset an actual game play element.

Once in game, unless the mod gives you actual abiltities to change the world, it doesn't "change the world".

You can build keeps in mortal that can serve as a strategic structure for one. As i've mentioned before garys mod is a sandbox which is a fact and not an opinion. Yet by your 'opinion' based on how you describe sandbox games. Garys mod wouldn't fit in

To be honest I'm only going by what I read when it comes to Mortal so if it somehow doesn't fit on that list then X it out

Having housing in a game doesn't make it a sandbox, unless those structures are part of the gameworld and not a seperate area of the game one have to access but even then, depending on how elaborate housing is, a themepark can have a segregated sandbox metagame in that as well. Like vanguard housing or the ability to create your own dungeon in EQ2 depending on the amount of freedom you actually have in creating those things.

And that's my point.

If you take your favorite linear game and "along that line" add a "point' where the player can build a structure, then does that suddenly alter the game to be a sandbox?

Or does a sandbox game just not dictate the game play of any particular player.

Being able to add a structure is a sandbox element but it doesn't dictate whether that game is a sandbox. edit as you;ve noted.

It's how it allows the player to follow his/her own goals. If I were to take buildign structures away from Mortal online does it suddently become a theme park? No. Because it still doesn't dicate how the player has to play. A linear theme park does.

OMG after all this years i still see players who say same game "is a wow clone"

You all need to understend all this mmo have start do be more and more the same becouse they have not same new ideas.Just becouse wow was 1 of the first mmo you cant say  all the games are a clone.

Whai you dont say same new ideas about how you whant a mmo,and after i will see how much new things they can add.

I wait your answer;

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

Neither GTA or TES are sandbox games. In order to be a sandbox you have to be able to alter the gameword and not just the story.

I disagree with you and once again we get into the argument about "what is a sandbox".

I would say he is correct. You can play an Elderscrolls game any way you want with some difficulty depending on your goals.

There are people who just run around collecting things and picking flowers to make potions.

There are people who try to get to the main objective with minimal killing.

If I take a linear game but add the ability to change the world then does that make that linear game a sandbox? I would say no.

 

I don't care if you agree or not it's pretty much a defining feature of all sandbox games. They all allow you to alter the gameworld. Picking up flowers and making potions is not

EvE

Terraria

Minecraft

DF

Mortal

Garys Mod

Skyrim + creation kit

Archeage

Ryzom

Is just a short list of sandbox games with one defining feature in common. If you want to talk about what it takes to be labeled a sandbox then we have to look at what they share. Skill progression for instance is not a feature they all have in common.

And explain how one alters the world in EVE and ryzom and mortal. I dont' recall one being able to build much and change the landscape in those games. Ryzom does have the scenario toolset but I don't consider that "sandbox elements" just like I don't consider any ES toolset an actual game play element.

Once in game, unless the mod gives you actual abiltities to change the world, it doesn't "change the world".

You can build keeps in mortal that can serve as a strategic structure for one. As i've mentioned before garys mod is a sandbox which is a fact and not an opinion. Yet by your 'opinion' based on how you describe sandbox games. Garys mod wouldn't fit in

To be honest I'm only going by what I read when it comes to Mortal so if it somehow doesn't fit on that list then X it out

Having housing in a game doesn't make it a sandbox, unless those structures are part of the gameworld and not a seperate area of the game one have to access but even then, depending on how elaborate housing is, a themepark can have a segregated sandbox metagame in that as well. Like vanguard housing or the ability to create your own dungeon in EQ2 depending on the amount of freedom you actually have in creating those things.

And that's my point.

If you take your favorite linear game and "along that line" add a "point' where the player can build a structure, then does that suddenly alter the game to be a sandbox?

Or does a sandbox game just not dictate the game play of any particular player.

Being able to add a structure is a sandbox element but it doesn't dictate whether that game is a sandbox.

It's how it allows the player to follow his/her own goals. If I were to take buildign structures away from Mortal online does it suddently become a theme park? No. Because it still doesn't dicate how the player has to play. A linear theme park does.

If you take a themepark and add sandbox elements it would be a hybrid. Some consider Vanguard a hybrid just for that reason. I'm not sure I agree but again.. considering you can build continental houses and ships I can see why

By the way you are ignoring my Sims and Garys mod references. They both have something in common you willfully ignore

Originally posted by Starpower

 

If you take a themepark and add sandbox elements it would be a hybrid.

I think it would depend on the elements.

Any game that allows a player to follow their own goals or jump on a linear grand quest would definitly be a hybrid.

But just adding the ability to add housing doesn't really do much but add that ability.

I would go as far as to say that any sandbox game that added large linear quest lines would just be more of a sandbox game because it just adds another tool in the sandbox arsenal.

How are people even getting any information on the game? Its probably 3 years from coming out...

Originally posted by Starpower

 

If you take a themepark and add sandbox elements it would be a hybrid. Some consider Vanguard a hybrid just for that reason. I'm not sure I agree but again.. considering you can build continental houses and ships I can see why

I would say it's a hybrid. But I would also say that Vanguard doesn't really dictate what you need to do to play. For the most part I've always ignored the quests in VAnguard.

Of course one can do that in lotro. However, in true themepark fashion, one can't go anywhere one wants in lotro as there are areas that will bar you if you are not oin the correct quest link.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

If you take a themepark and add sandbox elements it would be a hybrid.

I think it would depend on the elements.

Any game that allows a player to follow their own goals or jump on a linear grand quest would definitly be a hybrid.

But just adding the ability to add housing doesn't really do much but add that ability.

I would go as far as to say that any sandbox game that added large linear quest lines would just be more of a sandbox game because it just adds another tool in the sandbox arsenal.

As I described above. Housing alone wouldn't do it. It depends on other factors that comes with "housing". Minecraft again is a sandbox and all you do is create. Digging fighting crafting is all means to that end

Originally posted by Starpower

Originally posted by Sovrath

Originally posted by Starpower

 

If you take a themepark and add sandbox elements it would be a hybrid.

I think it would depend on the elements.

Any game that allows a player to follow their own goals or jump on a linear grand quest would definitly be a hybrid.

But just adding the ability to add housing doesn't really do much but add that ability.

I would go as far as to say that any sandbox game that added large linear quest lines would just be more of a sandbox game because it just adds another tool in the sandbox arsenal.

As I described above. Housing alone wouldn't do it. It depends on other factors that comes with "housing". Minecraft again is a sandbox and all you do is create. Digging fighting crafting is all means to that end

I actually added an "as you noted" to that post. should have added that first.

However, it still doesn't speak to the "is it a sandbox" question.

I will assert that if a game leads you from one activity to another and limits what you can do as far as game play then it's not a sandbox. If you can choose what you want to do at any given time and can freely progress in any activity, regardless of your taking advantage of any of the other available activities, then it probably is a sandbox.

Being able to build structures is a sandbox element for sure but it doesn't make it a sandbox. Which I think we can agree on.

Just like LOTRO is not a sandbox because I can choose my activity but I am fairly limited in what I can do and where I can go unless I take advantage of many (most?) of the questlines.